Mike Pence: Almost as bad as Trump but he might not get us killed

[send*the*ferrets]

I don't think it's fair to compare infidelities in the Clinton's marriage what... 20 years ago? To Pence's rule now. Unless I have missed something (it's possible, I don't really care what people do in their own marriages unless they try to dictate mine)- we have no idea what type of arrangement Hillary and Bill have now. Maybe they stayed together for political reasons, maybe they went to marriage counseling, maybe they agreed to an open marriage- who knows. But it doesn't impact anybody else because as far as I know Hillary never turned down a meeting with anybody bc she wasn't allowed to be in  room alone with them. Pence having this silly "rule" DOES matter because he is effectively cutting women out of policy making. 

I'm just really freaking sick of Hillary being looked down on for choosing to stay in her marriage. It is not ANYBODIES business why she chose to stay. Maybe she stayed because she just doesn't like to take the trash out. It doesn't matter, and it shouldn't have been brought into the presidential race like it was. If Hillary had divorced Bill, she would have been anti-family values or something. If Obama had been divorced you KNOW that would have been unacceptable. 

The article actually just makes me think about how you a woman is pretty much screwed either way. Hillary is crazy for staying with a guy who cheated, frigid, shrew... Pence's wife can't even trust him to be in a room alone with a woman. Melania doesn't even want to be in the same *state* as her husband. And Michelle got raked over the coals for being too sexy, and let's not forget the awful racist remarks. Ugh. 

[Childless]

9 hours ago, send*the*ferrets said:

I don't think it's fair to compare infidelities in the Clinton's marriage what... 20 years ago? To Pence's rule now. Unless I have missed something (it's possible, I don't really care what people do in their own marriages unless they try to dictate mine)- we have no idea what type of arrangement Hillary and Bill have now. Maybe they stayed together for political reasons, maybe they went to marriage counseling, maybe they agreed to an open marriage- who knows. But it doesn't impact anybody else because as far as I know Hillary never turned down a meeting with anybody bc she wasn't allowed to be in  room alone with them. Pence having this silly "rule" DOES matter because he is effectively cutting women out of policy making. 

I'm just really freaking sick of Hillary being looked down on for choosing to stay in her marriage. It is not ANYBODIES business why she chose to stay. Maybe she stayed because she just doesn't like to take the trash out. It doesn't matter, and it shouldn't have been brought into the presidential race like it was. If Hillary had divorced Bill, she would have been anti-family values or something. If Obama had been divorced you KNOW that would have been unacceptable. 

The article actually just makes me think about how you a woman is pretty much screwed either way. Hillary is crazy for staying with a guy who cheated, frigid, shrew... Pence's wife can't even trust him to be in a room alone with a woman. Melania doesn't even want to be in the same *state* as her husband. And Michelle got raked over the coals for being too sexy, and let's not forget the awful racist remarks. Ugh. 

I agree.  I could care less about someone else's marriage unless it affects me (as Pence's marriage potentially could).  That HRC chose to stay with Bill is not any of my concern.  Melania choosing to be in a loveless marriage is no skin off my nose.  Whatever.  Only they have to deal with the ramifications of their decisions.

I will say though that the Obamas are so damn cute together, it nauseating.  

[VixenToast]

Oh Jesus, if a man said I needed to leave a communal room so he could use said room solely based on me possessing an evil vagina and wicked female wiles.... well I would say NO, and that if it was that big of an issue then I would claim sexual harassment. Sorry, something thinking of me in a solely sexual way and acting upon it counts as harassment. Perhaps a different career would benefit a man like that... his rights end when they infringe upon mine  there are plenty of men-only religious education establishments.

Poor, defenseless men. Fear the vage, respect the vage.

oh Lord, and if an ultra-religious man insisted I move my seat one plane I would A) insist on 1st class B.) Not getting that, refuse to move C) depending on if I'm medicated, yell enough to get switched to 1st class/make an emergency landing to kick me off.

Every femme-fearing man can fuck off or grow up. I see your insecurity and it is the least "manly" thing ever. Pathetic!!!!!

[Hmmm_idolatry]

@VixenToast I couldn't agree more.  I don't care if someone wants to be a fundie, or orthodox, or whatever in their private lives.  I do care if that person chooses to seek public office and feels the need to be fundie in that job.  It's one thing donning a head-covering all the time (Yarmulke, turban, hijab, whatever-I've no problem with that at all), but it's another thing to engage in misogynistic behavior while in that public role that the taxpayers are funding.  Ironically, some of the most devout Muslims I know are college professors at public universities who would never dream of saying, "I cannot meet with you during my office hours because you are female."  Can you imagine if they did say that in the US?  The shit would hit the fan.  

Pence needs to realize that if he can't perform the duties of his public role, then he needs to reconsider whether or not that job is truly for him.  

Edited April 1, 2017 by Hmmm_idolatry

[GreyhoundFan]

"The religious reasons Mike Pence won’t eat alone with women don’t add up"

Quote

A story about Billy Graham goes something like this: In 1949 or 1950, after one of his famous evangelistic meetings, Graham returned to his hotel room to find a naked woman lying on his bed, ready to seduce him in an attempt to destroy his ministry. Graham, cautious and humble as usual, fled the hotel room and immediately implemented a rule that would come to bear his name: From that day forward, Graham would not travel (including by car), eat or meet alone with a woman other than his wife, Ruth.

The Billy Graham Rule was soon adopted by evangelical pastors and business executives. Men in positions of influence wanted to “flee from sexual immorality” and be “above reproach” (both biblical commands), as well as abstain from “every appearance of evil.” Aware of how many Christian leaders have been felled by sexual immorality, many of these men were taking sincere steps to guard their marriages from infidelity and their hearts from lust.

...

The impulse that led to the Billy Graham Rule — which was actually a solidification of principles guarding against several kinds of temptation — is a good and honorable one: to remain faithful to one’s spouse and to avoid the kind of behavior (or rumors of behavior) that have destroyed the careers of church leaders. Evangelical pastors having affairs is so common as to almost be cliche, and damages the integrity of the church.

But good intentions do not always produce helpful consequences. In this case, the Billy Graham Rule risks reducing women to sexual temptations, objects, things to be avoided. It perpetuates an old boys’ club mentality, excluding women from important work and career conversations simply by virtue of their sex.

There are good reasons for pastors not to meet behind closed doors with someone of the opposite sex. For the sake of transparency, it can be a wise decision to choose to meet, say, at a coffee shop or somewhere with an open-door policy. But for men to categorically refuse to meet one-on-one with women is often dehumanizing and denies the image of Christ that each person bears. As the philosopher Dallas Willard wrote in “The Spirit of the Disciplines,” “Alienation from them makes room for harmful lusts.” It also fuels the myth that loads of women are waiting around to falsely accuse powerful men of rape, a situation that has occurred, but is rare and often used to discount real sexual trauma.

The Billy Graham Rule also denies the reality of LGBT people. As a friend pointed out to me: Should a bisexual person refuse to ever be alone with anyone, full stop? Should a male pastor refuse to meet one-on-one with a gay man? As with so many policies in the evangelical church, the Billy Graham Rule assumes heteronormativity, furthering the idea that people who are LGBT are people “out there,” not an essential part of the church.

The rule also promotes the preservation of men and exclusion of women in positions of leadership. If a woman at work cannot meet one-on-one with her boss or colleague, her options for advancement (or even being taken seriously as a colleague) are extremely limited.

Some have pointed out, and rightfully so, that strict open-door policies rule in the world of primary education. An enormous power differential in the student-teacher relationship can be exploited for abuse. But colleagues and employees engage in a relationship between grown-ups who ought to be able to have an appropriate work-related conversation or a meal together. Affairs start in secrecy, and to guard against them is good. It wasn’t so long ago that numerous pastors were found to have accounts on Ashley Madison, a website for people seeking affairs.

...

In this conversation, we also have to keep in mind the fact that Pence is the vice president of the United States. He is not a pastor and does not act in that capacity. How on earth can he be expected to represent half the country if he won’t eat at the same table as us? Not to mention that his ideological purity is called into question by his support of our current president, who has bragged about committing sexual assault.

One of the most common citations for following the Billy Graham Rule is to avoid “rumors” that can fell a church leader. However, if we look not to Graham for an example of how to treat women but to Jesus, we will find a different path to follow.

Jesus consistently elevated the dignity of women and met with them regularly, including his meeting with a Samaritan woman in the middle of the day. Scholars suggest that the woman would have gone to the well in the noon heat to avoid interacting with her fellow townspeople, who would have gone at a cooler time of day. Samaritans and Jews were not particularly fond of each other. Yet this Jewish man met this Samaritan woman in broad daylight, asked her for water from the well, and in turn offered her eternal life. The woman, widely thought to be an adulteress, had been married five times and had no husband when she met Jesus. Yet he didn’t flinch from meeting with her. He didn’t suggest that his reputation was more important than her eternal soul. As a result, she lives on as one of the heroes of the faith, a woman who evangelized to her entire city.

It will be difficult for women to flourish in the White House if the vice president will not meet with them. Women cannot flourish in the church if their pastors consistently treat them as sexual objects to be avoided. The Billy Graham Rule locates the fault of male infidelity in the bodies of women, but “flee from temptation” does not mean “flee from women.”

 

[Audrey2]

I look at guys like this, and I want to say, "Seriously? You don't trust yourself or women like that?" 

 

I'min a serious long term committed relationship, and my closest friend after my sweetie is his best friend, who is a guy. When my Sweetie has his guy's weekend every year, this guy and I enjoy going on a hiking adventure. Our parts have never co-mingled because we're not animals! But then, we don't buy into the Fundies "Any man can marry any woman" horse patooey!

 

I get along with men much better than women. I'd hate to have to give up all of my friendships.

 

 

[Childless]

2 hours ago, Audrey2 said:

I look at guys like this, and I want to say, "Seriously? You don't trust yourself or women like that?" 

 

I'min a serious long term committed relationship, and my closest friend after my sweetie is his best friend, who is a guy. When my Sweetie has his guy's weekend every year, this guy and I enjoy going on a hiking adventure. Our parts have never co-mingled because we're not animals! But then, we don't buy into the Fundies "Any man can marry any woman" horse patooey!

 

I get along with men much better than women. I'd hate to have to give up all of my friendships.

 

 

I'm a supervisor in a male dominated field.  3/4 of my people are men.  If any of my subordinates had these personal rules, it would make it damn near impossible to do my job.  I often find myself in one on one meetings.  Sometimes it's because there are personal issues they want to discuss.  Sometimes it's disciplinary.  Sometimes it's performance reviews.  How can I perform up to the standard of my fellow male supervisors and compete for promotions if I don't have the same freedom to lead?  Thankfully, I work for a company that wouldn't put up with stupid shenanigans like Pence's rules.  They are very vocal about treating all employees equally.  Not all companies are like that though.

[fraurosena]

In other, Pence related news, (which could just as easily be posted in the Russian connection thread) Politicausa has an article on how Rachel Maddow Explains How Mike Pence Is Going To Go Down With Trump For Russia Scandal.

Quote

Rachel Maddow pointed out the obvious. None of the excuses that Vice President Mike Pence is giving for his lack of knowledge about the Russia scandal make sense. As the head of Trump's transition, Vice President Pence is not clean and will go down with Trump for the events that happened during the 2016 election.[...]

"Mike Pence had been the head of the Trump transition. As such, he would have been intimately involved with the selection and vetting process for a job as important as national security adviser. Nevertheless, Vice President Mike Pence has professed absolute ignorance of any of the scandals of any of the foreign payments, contacts and all the rest of it surrounding Mike Flynn. Pence was the leader of the transition. As leader of the transition, he was notified in writing by members of Congress about Flynn’s apparent financial ties to the government of Turkey. The transition was also apparently notified twice by Flynn’s own lawyers about his financial relationship with the government of Turkey, but nevertheless, Vice President Mike Pence says he has no idea about any of that." [...]

The most common statement that I hear from readers when Trump impeachment is discussed is always some version of, “Yeah, but then Mike Pence will be president.”

As I have been writing for months, there is no way that Mike Pence didn’t know what was going on with Russia. The White House’s attempts to firewall off Pence from the rest of the scandal make no sense and will not hold up under investigation.

If Donald Trump leaves office under a cloud of scandal, the investigations, criminal and political, will continue. The Russia scandal won’t go away after Trump is gone. Mike Pence sold himself to Donald Trump when he became his running mate. Pence is deeply involved in this administration.

The political career of Mike Pence will be over when the Russia scandal blows up.

So, not only is Pence a conservative, fundamentalist douche, he's also a conservative, fundamentalist douche who colludes with Russians and lies through his perfectly bleached teeth about it.

[Cartmann99]

7 hours ago, Childless said:

 l will say though that the Obamas are so damn cute together, it nauseating.  

If I had adult children, my romantic advice would be for them to find someone who looks at them the way the Obamas look at each other. 

 

[lawfulevil]

This reminds me of the people who proclaim that atheists can't possibly have morals, because you see- if they didn't believe in a lake of eternal hellfire awaiting sinners, they'd be slaughtering and raping left and right.

Spoiler

Oh, but it's okay, because they do believe that God eternally punishes people who do those things. Along with loads of other people who led otherwise unobjectionable lives but believed the wrong things about Him. Great. That's reassuring...

For what other group of people or topic would this kind of "self control" get applause? Anyone  who isn't a rich, white, "Christian" man?

If a woman said she refused to be alone with any man other than her husband because either- 1. she can't resist any temptation whatsoever and any breathing human with a penis is a temptation, or 2. the other guy might sexually assault her, everyone would LOSE THEIR MIND, even though that's exactly what Pence is saying.

How about other sins?

Gluttony? If someone refused to ever go to the grocery store alone lest they clean out the cookie aisle, we'd strongly suspect they had an eating disorder, we wouldn't laud their "commitment to health".

Theft? Imagine an accountant proclaiming that they can't be left alone with anyone else's wallet/purse because the temptation to steal could overwhelm them. Would you hire that guy to do your dog's taxes, let alone run a country?

Murder? "Well your honor, it's not my fault I murdered three of my neighbors, someone left me alone with a gun and I can't be expected to control myself in those circumstances- I HAD to wildly fire it in all directions, it's biology."

Have you considered a nice chastity belt, Mr. Vice President?

 

[fraurosena]

5 minutes ago, lawfulevil said:

Have you considered a nice chastity belt, Mr. Vice President?

Why oh why did I just google male chastity belts? I'm so defrauded right now... 

Here's a rather modest one. Can you picture Pence in it? 

 

[hoipolloi]

I'm surprised that Goody Pence doesn't lock an ankle monitor onto Mikey whenever he leaves her side. If he's that out of control, maybe he shouldn't be allowed in public at all without some safeguards.

He's also a lying sack of shit when it comes to what he knew about the Russia stuff and when he knew it.

They all need to be removed, tried, convicted & sent to prison for the rest of their (un)natural lives.

 

[Cartmann99]

7 minutes ago, hoipolloi said:

I'm surprised that Goody Pence doesn't lock an ankle monitor onto Mikey whenever he leaves her side.

 It's the 21 century, so maybe she could microchip him like I do with my cats in case they get out? 

8 minutes ago, fraurosena said:

Why oh why did I just google male chastity belts? I'm so defrauded right now... 

Here's a rather modest one. Can you picture Pence in it? 

 

Well, since Ivanka Trump's fine jewelry line is kaput, maybe she could bedazzle up some chastity belts in fun fashion colors?  

[lawfulevil]

Well ladies, we asked for it and Ivanka heard us! New for Spring 2017, the first piece from the "DC Nights" series of marriage-protecting intimates- the "Mike and Mommy".

Lovingly crafted in China from the finest faux American faux leather with real double-lead crystals and a gold-plated (of course!) lock.

[Cartmann99]

44 minutes ago, lawfulevil said:

Well ladies, we asked for it and Ivanka heard us! New for Spring 2017, the first piece from the "DC Nights" series of marriage-protecting intimates- the "Mike and Mommy".

Lovingly crafted in China from the finest faux American faux leather with real double-lead crystals and a gold-plated (of course!) lock.

Can't wait to see what she has for the ladies! Pup-tents, perhaps?

[AnywhereButHere]

I just Googled "bedazzled chastity belts". Enjoy my browsing history all you anti internet privacy politicians!

So, for the ladies, the latest in upscale trash chastity. 

Spoiler

 

 

Edited April 3, 2017 by AnywhereButHere
Apparently I'm still technologically challenged

[KnittingOwl]

Had my first Facebook casualty over Pence and his Graham rule. A male friend of mine, who has become very devout Catholic, was trying to argue that a) Pence isn't following the Graham rule, and b/ it's not sexist and discriminatory. I really like when a female friend of his said that I have the problem in my marriage if I go out to lunch or dinner with a male colleague or friend alone. Pretty sure that's backwards. I can also have lunch with someone without jumping across the table and having sex with them.  

[Childless]

8 hours ago, KnittingOwl said:

Had my first Facebook casualty over Pence and his Graham rule. A male friend of mine, who has become very devout Catholic, was trying to argue that a) Pence isn't following the Graham rule, and b/ it's not sexist and discriminatory. I really like when a female friend of his said that I have the problem in my marriage if I go out to lunch or dinner with a male colleague or friend alone. Pretty sure that's backwards. I can also have lunch with someone without jumping across the table and having sex with them.  

What I gather from these peoples' comments is that they have absolutely no self control and if not for their special rules and scary god, they'd be humping anything that moved 24/7.

[JMO]

I'm thinking Trump needs to institute the Graham rule.  For the safety of womankind. 

 

[onekidanddone]

19 hours ago, AnywhereButHere said:

I just Googled "bedazzled chastity belts". Enjoy my browsing history all you anti internet privacy politicians!

So, for the ladies, the latest in upscale trash chastity. 

  Hide contents

 

 

Is it just me, or does that look a little itchy? 

[GreyhoundFan]

6 minutes ago, onekidanddone said:

Is it just me, or does that look a little itchy? 

Well, Pence always has a look on his face that makes me think he's suffering from jock itch, so maybe he's wearing a chastity belt.

[KnittingOwl]

12 hours ago, Childless said:

What I gather from these peoples' comments is that they have absolutely no self control and if not for their special rules and scary god, they'd be humping anything that moved 24/7.

Yeah. That's what confuses me. Is Pence going to refuse to meet with gay men too in case they can't control themselves? What about lesbians? 

[fraurosena]

3 hours ago, KnittingOwl said:

Yeah. That's what confuses me. Is Pence going to refuse to meet with gay men too in case they can't control themselves? What about lesbians? 

Uhm... you do know that gays and lesbians don't really exist, don't you? There are only heterosexuals who choose that lifestyle!
So Pencey-poo won't have a thing to worry about on that score!

>end sarcasm<

[louisa05]

Had my first Facebook casualty over Pence and his Graham rule. A male friend of mine, who has become very devout Catholic, was trying to argue that a) Pence isn't following the Graham rule, and b/ it's not sexist and discriminatory. I really like when a female friend of his said that I have the problem in my marriage if I go out to lunch or dinner with a male colleague or friend alone. Pretty sure that's backwards. I can also have lunch with someone without jumping across the table and having sex with them.  

I just had an ugly FB conversation with a sexist jackass about it, too.

He explained that the experiences I had with men using these rules didn't happen the way I think they did and that all women they are not married to are threats to men and their marriages and children. Also that attitude is not sexist and does not mean he views women as sex objects. And those rules never exclude women in professional settings nor is it demeaning to always assume a woman will be sexually attracted to every man she is alone in a room with.

Mansplaining asshole.

[JMO]

Holy crap @louisa05.  You know that crap is out there but to have someone come out and type it for posterity.  WTF.