The Botkinettes have surfaced and they're giving relationship advice again!

[Marian the Librarian]

28 minutes ago, Howl said:

Well, they are already subsumed under giant amoeba Geoff, who has successfully suffocated them with slime.  

  Reveal hidden contents

What we see in Scripture is both married, single, and widowed women being all about the same essential things: Relationships. Discipleship. Service. Teaming up with others to spread the gospel. Pouring themselves into the households they were in. Assisting men (fathers, husbands, brothers, prophets, fellow disciples) in supportive roles. Nurturing biological and spiritual children. Meeting physical and spiritual and emotional needs. You know what this would mean for life preparation? It means the same training that would prepare a woman to be an amazing wife and mother would also prepare her to be an amazing single woman, an amazing widow, and an amazing empty-nester.

And it chaps me that they act all passive, "Well, marriage just didn't happen for us."  It's not, "Well, dad cock blocked every potential suitor due to emotional incest, our eggs are slowly drying up and we're stuck at home being unpaid servants."  

To paraphrase one of my favorite sayings: If it looks like a duck (biologist), and it walks like a duck (biologist), and it quacks like a duck (biologist), it's probably a duck (biologist)!!

[acheronbeach]

Didn't someone stop by (maybe the Yuku days?  I don't even remember) and say that Anna Sofia had a potential courtship interest, but after Geoff presented it to her, she said she wasn't interested?  

Vague I know but that's my recollection... anyone else remember that?  

[Marian the Librarian]

19 minutes ago, acheronbeach said:

Didn't someone stop by (maybe the Yuku days?  I don't even remember) and say that Anna Sofia had a potential courtship interest, but after Geoff presented it to her, she said she wasn't interested?  

Vague I know but that's my recollection... anyone else remember that?  

From the "Under Much Grace" blog:

Quote

This homeschooling mom described a love for the wholesome image that the Vision Forum advertising paints and expressed her enjoyment of Voddie Baucham’s messages. Apparently, one session with the Botkins and the men that they took with them on the trip cured her of affection for the whole Vision Forum affiliated group. I understand that she was most disturbed by message about the subjugation of women, the religion overtly focused on gender and the idea that “daughters are engaged to their fathers until marriage” (her paraphrase and description of what she understood from the message). They also included a story of one of the Botkin Sisters’ suitors (who apparently approached Geoff Botkin) who was subjected to a process of Bible study similar to the process that Scott Brown required of the Peter Bradrick as described in the Botkin daughters’ “Return of the Daughters” video. From what was related to me, the Botkin daughter decided that she was not terribly interested in the young man after he completed this quite involved process, the young man was sent away in sorrow, and this New Zealander had the impression that the whole family expressed relief that the matchmaking did not work out.

http://undermuchgrace.blogspot.com/2009/05/botkin-update-who-is-geoff-botkin-and.html

[CyborgKin]

Ahhhh, they rise!  I sure picked the wrong week not to get around to checking FJ for days

Looks like they're trying to pretend their year plus of silence never happened.  I guess they must have forgotten about their online presence while writing new content (from their vast experience of not being in relationships ) and recording the audiobook.  I wonder what made them think that was a good idea?  And I'm curious how they manage to miss learning the importance of having a consistent online presence for keeping viewers engaged (heh).  Because the way they operate I expect most of their audience plain forgot they even exist

Okay, now to catch up with the thread...

[Grimalkin]

I guess they are lucky their parents can afford to keep them home. I imagine not many of their followers  planned on supporting their daughters well into adulthood and possibly forever. Will their brothers and sister in laws be as generous? Will they be able to maintain the life they are accustomed to?

[Howl]

21 minutes ago, Grimalkin said:

I guess they are lucky their parents can afford to keep them home. I imagine not many of their followers  planned on supporting their daughters well into adulthood and possibly forever. Will their brothers and sister in laws be as generous? Will they be able to maintain the life they are accustomed to?

Good point.  Their parents won't live forever and it's not like they'll be eligible for Social Security at some point. 

[Othello]

1 hour ago, Grimalkin said:

I guess they are lucky their parents can afford to keep them home. I imagine not many of their followers  planned on supporting their daughters well into adulthood and possibly forever. Will their brothers and sister in laws be as generous? Will they be able to maintain the life they are accustomed to?

To be fair, they have their own materials that they sell, and in the event someday that their parents pass or age out of the business, they'll inherit it; it's not like they're simply dead weight. They're intelligent people no doubt and will be fine as far as basic human needs; they'd just be vastly better off in a different environment.

[Grimalkin]

49 minutes ago, Othello said:

To be fair, they have their own materials that they sell, and in the event someday that their parents pass or age out of the business, they'll inherit it; it's not like they're simply dead weight. They're intelligent people no doubt and will be fine as far as basic human needs; they'd just be vastly better off in a different environment.

     I don't disagree with you. I know they aren't stupid. The thing about their business is when things are going well people tend to think they will always  be doing well. There are always risks. You need to be able to keep up with the times and be on top of your game. Before you know it someone else comes along. Someone will come around with shinier books. 

      The long and the short of it is fortunes come and go. I have watched it dozens of times, including my mom who is smart and well educated and made out very well in divorcing my dad who should not be in the position she is in. 

      People get sick, unexpected things happen. I hope you are right. I am extremely conservative about money.

[ophelia]

On 12.2.2017 at 7:23 PM, Foudeb said:

I've seen worse videos coming from proper marketing departments.

They should get themselves a proper career instead of peddling this nonsense.

I have always thought the same thing. They are clearly intelligent women that could have accomplished a lot in the real world. It isn't too late for them to run for their money and ditch fundiedom.

On 15.2.2017 at 7:34 AM, Bethella said:

Last we heard Joshua Phillips was courting Delany Sproul, but that was before her father was arrested for drunk driving.

They are still courting!

[MamaJunebug]

8 hours ago, Howl said:

Good point.  Their parents won't live forever and it's not like they'll be eligible for Social Security at some point. 

Frightening!

7 hours ago, Othello said:

To be fair, they have their own materials that they sell, and in the event someday that their parents pass or age out of the business, they'll inherit it; it's not like they're simply dead weight. They're intelligent people no doubt and will be fine as far as basic human needs; they'd just be vastly better off in a different environment.

If only they had the option of trying a different environment. Or two. 

[gustava]

The photo of the woman on the blog posting is a woman in despair.

[DomWackTroll]

On 2/16/2017 at 3:15 AM, ophelia said:

They are still courting!

Yeah, she's not going to get dumped just because Spanky got a DUI. For starters, look at Joshua's dad. Plus, Delaney is the granddaughter of RC Sr., and that goes a long, long way. 

[Columbia]

I wonder if the new section of the book is about unhealthy/unsafe relationships. They have mentioned previously that they didn't really discuss that topic in their book. It does seem a little retrospective now.

[katilac]

On 2/15/2017 at 9:21 PM, Othello said:

To be fair, they have their own materials that they sell, and in the event someday that their parents pass or age out of the business, they'll inherit it; it's not like they're simply dead weight. They're intelligent people no doubt and will be fine as far as basic human needs; they'd just be vastly better off in a different environment.

They may or may not inherit it. Assuming you will inherit something, or that it will be worth x amount of money, is a dangerous business. 

[Grimalkin]

25 minutes ago, katilac said:

They may or may not inherit it. Assuming you will inherit something, or that it will be worth x amount of money, is a dangerous business. 

       You said it so much better than I.

[Sobeknofret]

On 02/14/2017 at 11:34 PM, Bethella said:

Last we heard Joshua Phillips was courting Delany Sproul, but that was before her father was arrested for drunk driving.

Wait! What?! When did this happen? I mean Spanky getting busted, not the courtship.

[Bethella]

9 minutes ago, Sobeknofret said:

Wait! What?! When did this happen? I mean Spanky getting busted, not the courtship.

Right after he got remarried last fall (you knew about that right?!) He married Lisa Porter Ringel on November 19, was charged on November 29 (drunk driving with minors in the car) and his resignation from Ligonier was announced December 12. 

 

[lawfulevil]

"The hardest equation a girl has to solve"- not even CLOSE, Botkinettes, but if you can finish my homework I'll let you talk to me about Jesus as long as you want. Deal?

[GiggleOfGirls]

Hooray! The Botkins were my gateway into learning how deep the fundie rabbit hole went and were how I found FJ in the first place (it was specifically Geoff, but I like following the girls' story much better). I'm thrilled to have come back to FJ just a few days after they resurfaced! 

That blog post is pretty telling. I commend them if they've decided they'd rather not be baby-makers for the rest of their childbearing years. I hope that they're able to do more with their lives as time goes on - maybe once their father dies.

[Howl]

1 hour ago, GiggleOfGirls said:

That blog post is pretty telling. I commend them if they've decided they'd rather not be baby-makers for the rest of their childbearing years. I hope that they're able to do more with their lives as time goes on - maybe once their father dies.

Me too, but I suspect their headship will just pass along to their brothers, because they cannot conceive of themselves as having solo agency: 

Quote

What we see in Scripture is both married, single, and widowed women being all about the same essential things: Relationships. Discipleship. Service. Teaming up with others to spread the gospel. Pouring themselves into the households they were in. Assisting men (fathers, husbands, brothers, prophets, fellow disciples) in supportive roles.

It's interesting to me that they quote scripture indicating that women in the Bible obviously had businesses outside the home, but they skirt around that by subtly implying that women in all stages of life should be AT HOME, with, for example, a home-based business or to use their term -- stay within "the family economy".  It squicks me out a bit that they simply do not consider that a woman can end up outside of a family context, and the family context automatically includes men.  

It is interesting in this footnote that they are obviously telegraphing NOT GOING TO COLLEGE when they discuss cost-benefit analysis and allude to "a worst-case-type-scenario" without clarifying what that might be.  And to me "marketable skill" strongly implies getting a job outside the home, but they can't quite bring themselves to say that, can they? So all of this is about what you should (or shouldn't) do, but provides no practical advice, like what a "worst-case-type-scenario" might entail or what a marketable skill that you won't really market would look like.  I find this entire thing just insanely annoying, because they aren't saying what they are trying to say, but that's probably because they want you to buy more of their product -- they do a little low-grade spruiking at the end: 

Quote

1. We need to be wise, though, about how we decide what kinds of preparation would really be a strategically smart time/money investment. For example, some kinds of marketable skills are a lot more marketable than others. Some methods of learning marketable skills are higher-payoff than others – we would need to carefully weigh whether the training would eventually pay for itself in what it cost in time and money, and whether it could feasibly translate into family-friendly financial stability (especially in a worst-case-type-scenario). And some kinds of paid work and even ministry-work opportunities could genuinely take us further away from our bigger-picture goals as women. It will take wisdom to weigh each opportunity on a case-by-case basis, in light of our biggest priorities as both Christians and women. If you’re interested, we share a lot more thoughts on in these things in our message How to Develop Your Gifts within the Family Economy.

Anyway, I find all of this interesting, because, really, it implies that one should be a successful entrepreneur with a successful home-based business.  

I come from a family where (for several generations) we've worked for government or schools in structured employment: military, school teachers, state worker, Federal employee and so on.  My great grandfather was said to be a wonderful entrepreneur but a terrible business man, meaning he was great at starting a business, but couldn't keep it going.  Collectively, we just don't have an entrepreneurial bone in our bodies.  I can see how this idea that families should be supported by a family business can be an absolute disaster for many, who, like my family, just don't do business.  A few will be phenomenally successful and held up for others to emulate; most others will be victims of MLM schemes and wondering what the hell to do with stacks of unsold boxes of Plexus and DoTerra. 

[louisa05]

14 hours ago, katilac said:

They may or may not inherit it. Assuming you will inherit something, or that it will be worth x amount of money, is a dangerous business. 

Considering how much their family's belief system revolves around patriarchy, I would assume that everything left (and who knows how much will be left) will be split among the sons only. Perhaps a small sum for each unmarried daughter would be set aside, but I doubt they will get the bulk of the estate or control of whatever remains of the business. 

[Red Hair, Black Dress]

Because I obviously have too much time sometimes:  How does the whole SAHD thing work for an only child -- once the parents are gone?

There are no brothers to take over headship.  Any uncles are likely to be the same age or older than the parents  so probably also deceased. 

Does the SAHD then fall under a male cousin --  provided there are any -- and provided the male cousin(s) agree.  And what if the cousins aren't fundie?  Do they throw themselves on the mercy of some male relative and hope for the best?

I have the same questions about SAHD who have no brothers.

When Geoff B is too old/ feeble /ill to work anymore who will support him and the Botkinettes?  Will the Botkin sons take on the support?  Or will the Botkinettes do the supporting, but "under the headship" of Geoff even thought he's no longer able to control anything?

I think none of these patriarchal father types thought this whole SAHD thing through with all possible scenarios.  It never seems to have occurred to them that one or more daughters might never marry. 

Off the top of my head there are the Botkinettes, all the Maxwell daughters, Claudia Brown,  Jana Duggar, Mary Elizabeth Arndt -- there are many, many more,  Of course we totally suspect that Geoff and Stevehovah are actively turning away suitors so their daughters will continue to serve their fathers at home. Who knows what the hell Rick Arndt is doing because none of his sons are married either.

Seriously though -- Since the daughters are forbidden to work outside the home and most of them have no real marketable job skills, what's going to happen to these women if they ever to support themselves?

Edited to add:   I totally agree with louisa05 that the Botkin busiiness will be left to the sons. I also think if any money is left to the Botkinettes, it will be controlled by the sons.  We can't have a mere woman controlling her own money.

[Foudeb]

God will provide, of course. Remember, these asshats tell people who can't afford the kids they have to go ahead and just have more. No one can accuse them of having logical thoughts or of thinking things through.

[DomWackTroll]

3 hours ago, Red Hair, Black Dress said:

Because I obviously have too much time sometimes:  How does the whole SAHD thing work for an only child -- once the parents are gone?

There are no brothers to take over headship.  Any uncles are likely to be the same age or older than the parents  so probably also deceased. 

Does the SAHD then fall under a male cousin --  provided there are any -- and provided the male cousin(s) agree.  And what if the cousins aren't fundie?  Do they throw themselves on the mercy of some male relative and hope for the best?

Their answer is always "church elders." Needless to say, a penniless, grieving woman at the mercy of the male elders of her church is a situation that is wide open to potential abuse, but they never even issue any caution about it! 

[Sobeknofret]

I just had a few minutes to watch that video finally. Is it just me, or does something look *off* about Elizabeth? Both she and her sister are beautiful women, but Elizabeth looks...hard, pissed off, something. Her makeup is over exaggerated, and she just looks wrong to me. She's still young and has amazing skin and eyes, but she looks hard and cold in that video.