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Tori Bates' courtship- Part 3 Now Engaged - September 2017


samurai_sarah

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Its kinda weird that we're on part 3 of a slow moving thread on Tori's courtship and no engagement or anything seems very imminent. It's not how they usually do things. I hope its because everyone involved is ok with sort of a casual dating/courtship and waiting until theyre ready for marriage. Instead of rushing to the altar in order to have the godly sex. Refreshing really. 

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They're not even officially courting yet are they? Have we gotten that announcement? 

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Based on the level of physical contact we have seen, I think they have already been courting for a while. How that's going to play out on the show, I don't know.

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Actually, I don't remember Erin and Chad holding hands until engagement. Even Michael was all huggy and touchy with Brandon during their courtship. So far everyone appears to be comfortable with a little touching before engagement. Erin and Chad had to be all "holy" from start to finish.

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39 minutes ago, Tangy Bee said:

Actually, I don't remember Erin and Chad holding hands until engagement. Even Michael was all huggy and touchy with Brandon during their courtship. So far everyone appears to be comfortable with a little touching before engagement. Erin and Chad had to be all "holy" from start to finish.

Not to seem like I think she's right about all this, as evidenced by my willingness to discuss in another thread my first "illicit" time with a young man, but she and he seem content with their hands-off choice, however equal it might or might not have been. And she clearly loves her siblings; I don't sense she's sitting there on the couch saying, "Uh-uh, sister." If they're allowed to seek individual levels within these enforced limitations, she seems to have done what felt right to her with some honesty. I mean, I guess. 

You can get so much from a good hug, can't you? Even though it's not quite face-to-face, I think I'm glad Tori gets to feel close to her beau in some measure. Well, of course I am; young people who are probably going to wind up together should at least get to feel they're connected in person. I've lost the plot. Blame the post-inaugural double martini. But the later they wait, the more difficult it will be. Lawson and Trace might feel real grabby when their time comes, Hanson-style.

 

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Try Scotch with NO ice. It's gonna be a LONG evening.                                                                                                                  My thoughts go back to Josh Duggar's engagement. He started that no kissing crap! Well, we see how well experienced he is now. I just wonder if he had decided to just kiss on the forehead or cheek...would his other siblings decide to do the same. Remember it was Josh's idea!  Sure we knew other fundies who practiced this for decades but they are not famous. Josh made that crap mainstream.                                                                                  Back to the Bates. Zack admitted to kissing before the wedding, and so far it has not changed any minds. So do ya think the guys will be less likely to share this view when the time come??

Sorry folks...I have NO idea what happened to my typing up top. Wow...must be the Scotch...

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They are relaxing and every new courtship is getting more physical. Of course they will never accept premarital sex but I wouldn't be surprised if in a couple years we see a cheek kiss. Also It wouldn't surprise me if Lawson or any other boy date unchaperoned as Zach did.

I'm not sure why Kelly and Gil are relaxing. Did they realise that no-touching courtships were kinda freak even for fundies? Or is it just that most fundies in their circles has also relaxed? I'm sure Kelly agrees to make changes if it helps marrying children. 

I suspect Carlin went to Australia because courtship purposes, which makes me sad because with Wallers around nothing sounds good.

 

 

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All of the kids seemed to have different levels of physical affection during their courtships and engagements, and even before courting. The only one who is said to have kept it to a Duggar-standard is Erin and Chad. The rest have hand held and front hugged up a storm even before courting.

The ones who haven't come out and said if they saved their first kiss or not for marriage is Alyssa and John, nothing has been mentioned at all by Kelly or Gil, either. So I think that can be taken as they did not save their kiss for the alter, otherwise they'd be adding that to the list of 'Look How Godly And Pure Our Family Is'. Also, they appeared reeeeeeally comfortable with each other in their wedding portraits, which is good for them and further adds to speculation of not waiting.


It was overheard in Australia that Carlin already has a special friend. Not sure who or how long that's been going on. I'm thinking since the Summer. Just a hunch.

 

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I'm remembering an episode of BUB where Michael was getting irritated with tori touching Brandon. Didn't she say something like, "if I can't touch him, neither can you." It was years ago so I could be wrong. I guess I don't remember if they touched a ton while courting. 

And Alyssa and John had their wedding covered by Nightline and I though Alyssa said it would be their first kiss on their wedding. Again I could be wrong. 

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13 hours ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

I'm remembering an episode of BUB where Michael was getting irritated with tori touching Brandon. Didn't she say something like, "if I can't touch him, neither can you." It was years ago so I could be wrong. I guess I don't remember if they touched a ton while courting. 

And Alyssa and John had their wedding covered by Nightline and I though Alyssa said it would be their first kiss on their wedding. Again I could be wrong. 

Yes, that's what she said. Michael and Brandon initially had more physical contact but then seemed to draw it back a bit.

As for hearing Alyssa say that on Nightline, I didn't hear that but it's been a while. Hmm!

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19 hours ago, actuallyjessica said:

Yes, that's what she said. Michael and Brandon initially had more physical contact but then seemed to draw it back a bit.

As for hearing Alyssa say that on Nightline, I didn't hear that but it's been a while. Hmm!

Zach and Whitney are the only couple that slipped up and kissed before marriage

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6 hours ago, eleanora3 said:

Zach and Whitney are the only couple that slipped up and kissed before marriage

That we know of. For all we know, one or more of the couples is lying. No accusations here, of course, just raising a possibility that can't be discounted.

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A bunch of horny teens and young adults go to these ATI conventions. You can't make me believe that none of them has kissed, made out, or even had sweet fellowship (all consensual) while attending one. So, yeah, that can't be discounted.

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Agree that it can't be discounted.   I just don't believe that every single teen / young adult that attends these things stays completely hands off (to one degree or another.   I suspect a lot more goes on and yeah, some will lie to cover it up.  Actually given the over the top reactions from parents who would find out, it might be the smartest thing.  

Still kills me that Zach, a guy in his mid 20s, apologized for kissing his future wife before marriage.   

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2 hours ago, nokidsmom said:

Agree that it can't be discounted.   I just don't believe that every single teen / young adult that attends these things stays completely hands off (to one degree or another.   I suspect a lot more goes on and yeah, some will lie to cover it up.  Actually given the over the top reactions from parents who would find out, it might be the smartest thing.  

Still kills me that Zach, a guy in his mid 20s, apologized for kissing his future wife before marriage.   

I always took the apology as more of a "sorry we didn't follow through on what we said" rather than just being sorry that they kissed. If that makes sense?

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6 minutes ago, JemimaPuddle-Duck said:

I always took the apology as more of a "sorry we didn't follow through on what we said" rather than just being sorry that they kissed. If that makes sense?

That does make sense and while it makes a difference on what he was sorry for, it still astounds me that it even has to be brought up at all.  But then again I am thinking in non-fundie aka real world terms here.  

I always felt a bit bad for Zach when he experienced the broken courtship.   Poor guy was no doubt heavily influenced by his parents and believed it would all work out and then it didn't.   While not much was said about the aftermath, I got the impression the poor guy was really devastated.    Seems he took things into his own hands when he met Whit which was good, it showed he might have been thinking more for himself, so it was a bit surprising to me that I heard he actually apologized but maybe he was more "meh" about it than I am thinking.  

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My guess is that they were seen by someone in the family so apologized to make Gil and Kelly quiet or peaceful.  I doubt they were sorry at all that they kissed, but perhaps that finding out upset his parents (although it should be none of their business). 

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A grown ass man doesn't need to apologize for kissing his girlfriend/fiancee.

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On 21/1/2017 at 3:10 AM, Tangy Bee said:

Try Scotch with NO ice. It's gonna be a LONG evening.                                                                                                                  My thoughts go back to Josh Duggar's engagement. He started that no kissing crap! Well, we see how well experienced he is now. I just wonder if he had decided to just kiss on the forehead or cheek...would his other siblings decide to do the same. Remember it was Josh's idea!  Sure we knew other fundies who practiced this for decades but they are not famous. Josh made that crap mainstream.                                                                                  Back to the Bates. Zack admitted to kissing before the wedding, and so far it has not changed any minds. So do ya think the guys will be less likely to share this view when the time come??

Sorry folks...I have NO idea what happened to my typing up top. Wow...must be the Scotch...

No, Josh Duggar really didn't start it. He grew up and is deeply fried in a culture, that constantly has to come up with new "holiness standard" to prove that your denomination, group or even just family is even more on board with Jesus and has an even more special and deeper understading of scripture than that one over there. 
It's a highly competitive environment and someone like Josh, with an enthusiastic and competitive personality, raised as a Crownprince and as it turned out with something to hide, could not let an opportunity to show of his "holiness" pas him by.

Joshua Harris' "I kissed dating Goodbye" from 1997 was highly influencial and popularized "courting", but before that, there were others.

 

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I remember Josh talking about reading that book as well. I'm just saying he still had enfluence on his siblings. Many mainstream Christians had never even heard of that type of practice. I feel Josh helped make it more known because of his celebrity status. I was just wondering if he had not read the book...would he have promoted such a thing.                                                                                                   JoshHarris didn't even marry a virgin. Heard he had a few regrets about that book.

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The Duggars weren't really celebrities back when Josh and Anna got married though. They definitely weren't known like they are now. More like "have you seen that weirdo family with a million kids?"

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8 minutes ago, bashfulpixie said:

The Duggars weren't really celebrities back when Josh and Anna got married though. They definitely weren't known like they are now. More like "have you seen that weirdo family with a million kids?"

I agree with you. Although I think @Tangy Bee also has a point. Most mainstream folks that watched the show at that point probably thought that it was freak show worth watching. But a lot of the fundie (lite) families out there where probably inspired by their courtship model.

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I don't think Josh had a say in the matter.  I think it was all driven by Jim Bob and Michelle.  They said the kids set their courting/engagement standards but then completely directed what those standards should be until Jinger.

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