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    • Curious

      Guest Speaker 1.26.17 @ 8pm eastern   01/22/2017

      I am pleased to announce that we have are going to have a Q&A with an ex-evangelical on Thurs, January 26, 2017 @ 8pm.  The Q&A will last for approximately 1 hour.  I will be setting up a subforum for guest speakers as I hope to be able to get some other folks come talk to us. Our guest on Thurs will be Chris Stroop.  Here is his bio: Christopher Stroop grew up a rank-and-file member of the Christian Right in an Evangelical enclave community, Stroop's childhood social milieu consisting mostly of family and people associated with church and/or Christian school. From about the age of 16, Stroop found himself dealing with an increasingly acute crisis of faith that was not addressed properly by the people he talked to about it, and he was subjected to spiritual abuse. Stroop nevertheless went on to earn a BA in history and German from Ball State University (summa cum laude) in 2003, and then a Ph.D. in modern Russian History and Interdisciplinary Studies in the Humanities from Stanford in 2012. Subsequently, Stroop spent three academic years teaching in the School of Public Policy at the Russian Presidential Academy of National Economy and Public Administration in Moscow, where he kind of sort of almost got in trouble for "teaching Pussy Riot lyrics." Currently, Stroop teaches nineteenth-century European history and Russian Studies classes as a Provost's Postdoctoral Scholar at the University of South Florida and, as a freelance writer and public speaker, speaks out against the abuses of conservative Christianity in general and the the white Evangelical subculture he comes from in particular. You can find many of his writings in this vein on Religion Dispatches. If you would like to support this work financially, please click here (for monthly support) or here (to leave a one-time gift). Stroop's more academic writings can mostly be found here, and you can follow him on Twitter - @C_Stroop.   We are going to use the Q&A forum format.  I will be setting up a special forum just for Chris.  I will open the forum about 15 minutes before the Q&A starts so you can start asking your questions.   We have a few rules.  Failure to follow these rules will get you temporarily placed in the Prayer Closet so we can preview your posts.  If you get put in the PC during the Q&A you will be released once it's over, but lets just follow the few simple rules so none of that is necessary. Rules for Q&A: 1. Be polite.  This is not an event meant for snark.  Chris is taking time out of his busy schedule to talk to us.  He is an expert in the things we discuss here, so let's give him respect, please. 2. One question per post.   Please don't bog him down with a bunch of questions in one post.  We are using the Q&A format so he can easily answer questions.  Putting a ton of questions in one post defeats the purpose.   You can continue discussion on the thread as he answers and ask another question in the same thread if you have one after he answers. 3. Please try to keep thread drift to a minimum during the Q&A.  After it's over, if you want to continue discussion on the topics  and they drift, that's fine. 4.  Be polite! These rules are subject to change as I and the helpmeets think over possible loopholes (cause there is always one person that has to push boundaries)
choralcrusader8613

Tickling the Ivories - Jinger and Jeremy Vuolo

540 posts in this topic

I grew up in Ohio where real liquor was only available at state liquor stores. Grocery stores sometimes had very diluted knock off brands (maximum 40 proof, so about half as strong as the typical stuff). State liquor stores closed by 7 or 9 depending on the day and county, so you had to plan ahead for a night of drinking. They weren't open Sundays. I waitressed there and we also weren't allowed to serve alcohol until after a certain time on Sundays. I also lived a brief while in Utah where bars could only serve one serving of alcohol at a time. No doubles, no beer backs, no long island iced teas or amfs. Just one carefully portioned drink after another.

In England and Europe (primarily Italy) I saw lots of sneaking booze and flasks into places, in part because it's cheaper than buying drinks on location (same as in the us). But it is a lot less hidden in general there. My mom (who now lives in a state with real liquor in grocery stores) was really amazed when she saw people pull out drinks on the national rail trains in England.

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21 hours ago, justmy2cents said:

Yes, that's why I said that he maybe trying to appeal to his congregants.  

Since Jinger was taped sleeveless on her honeymoon I can see her adjusting her modesty standards and wearing pants soon, if she's not already.  She might even be curious to try some wine if she's around his family when they are having some with dinner.  I don't see her living by her parents standards once out of their house.

We've also seen Jinger wearing pants before, though they may or may not have had a skirt over them, and it wasn't really in "public" per se.  But there was a bit of a ruckus a couple years ago when Jinger was snapped wearing track pants and proper running shoes in a group photo at the TTH with some of Ben's family over.

 

Jinger Pants.JPG

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3 hours ago, Chickenbutt said:

The selling of alcohol on Sundays is considered a "blue law". It was designed to enforce religious standards. You can see the blue laws of each state here...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_laws_in_the_United_States

 

I grew up in a dry county in the south. No liquor for sale ever, beer only. Things have loosened up a lot recently and they now can sell liquor at restaurants, and wine in groceries (woot). I've lived several other places in the US and I've been surprised by how strict many liberal states' laws were (Washington and New York). Washington has relaxed some. 

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1 hour ago, PennySycamore said:

@BackseatMom,  I am amazed that Pennsylvania would have dry counties.  I thought that was a Southern thing.

You've never heard of Penciltucky? 

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I wonder something related to the earlier thread drift; I think control and emotional abuse are more common than physical DV.

If a person wasn't feeling safe due to that but wasn't physically hurt, is there anything mandated reporters or authorities can do? Moreover, where is the line between looking out for a partner or the household, and bad control? Also, I think lack of resources can lead to more controlling behavior, such as poverty meaning a partner does not have access to finances in a way they can use to get out, or to make buying decisions on every level on their own; but one can't say lack of money or social connections is emotional abuse by itself.

It's tough and reading this thread has made me think of this.

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12 hours ago, Snarkylark said:

RUN to a new provider, a functional med dr if you can find one. And make sure they do full thyroid panel, not just TSH! Medications should be adjusted by your symptoms, not just TSH!!!

bless your heart, thanks SO much for the validation, they don't listen to a damn thing I say...it's going to be complicated for me to switch (medicare and the assorted BS that goes along with that mess :S), but I have been thinking it is definitely time.

a question: I really began to notice the low thyroid stuff after my pharmacy switched me from one generic levothyroxine to another...do you think this could have had anything to do with it?

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23 hours ago, Shouldabeenacowboy said:

On the topic of drinking: strictly based on personal observation and experiences, I think many people in the USA have a weird, extreme relationship with alcohol.

On one extreme, there are fundie churches where alcohol is even forbidden in cooking. On the other extreme, there are college kids who cannot wait to be 21 to "get wasted", people who hide flasks of alcohol at concerts, etc. I have honestly not seen this in any other country where I have lived or visited, including my own country of origin.

I am not saying that all people in the USA are like that or that there aren't people like that in other countries, only what I have observed. It was always puzzling to me, coming from the perspective of growing up with wine on the table at all meals as far back as I can remember, and drinking/not drinking never being a big deal. 

Have you ever been to Finland or Ireland? ;) Russians also tend to drink a lot. When we Finns drink, it's often all or nothing. Forget the European tradition of a glass of wine with dinner; we almost always drink to get drunk/wasted. Legal drinking age is 18 but a majority have been drunk as minors. We joke a lot about our drinking culture, but truth is the damages caused by alcohol are frequent. Some fundies or fundie lights don't drink at all, but they are in minority over here. A part of the city where I went to primary school was notoriously known for its many alcoholics, and it wasn't that safe (by Nordic standards). Nowadays, 10-15 years later it's much cleaner since people originally from Somalia, Ethiopia and Eritrea moved there, and they drink so much less. 

Some research say we have an "alcoholic-gene" over here that shows up frequently, and that might explain why so few of us can stop after one glass. I've seen people going from almost never drinking to addiction in a matter of months (in part caused by our culture that claims no one can have fun without alcohol). It was scary. 

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Also we have some non-religious or not that religious people that never drink, but that is because they have seen alcoholism up close (a parent, partner etc.) and the damage it causes, so they stay sober just to be safe. 

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1 hour ago, Pukingpearl said:

I grew up in a dry county in the south. No liquor for sale ever, beer only. Things have loosened up a lot recently and they now can sell liquor at restaurants, and wine in groceries (woot). I've lived several other places in the US and I've been surprised by how strict many liberal states' laws were (Washington and New York). Washington has relaxed some. 

the county I grew up in was dry on Sundays (and holidays too?), other things besides alcohol couldn't be sold then either (but I can't recall what right now)...

it was a sad day in WA (imo) when the state liquor stores closed, and it all became available in grocery stores and other places...my neighbor of more than a decade, who is not a young guy, is a longtime alcoholic...he almost killed himself a few years ago after he became able to walk to walgreens and buy vodka, he just could NOT get drunk enough after that...he finally detoxed on his own, in the heat of the summer...it was awful, I honestly didn't know if he would make it for a few days, but he refused go to the hospital :my_sad: he stayed dry until election day, then he went and bought a great big bottle of the highest octane wild turkey, and he hasn't been really sober since

I'm all for getting a buzz on occasionally, but I don't really want to drink anymore, after watching what my neighbor has gone through...I'm very grateful that I was always able to put it down, it wasn't a big thing for me

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1 minute ago, goldengrove said:

the county I grew up in was dry on Sundays (and holidays too?), other things besides alcohol couldn't be sold then either (but I can't recall what right now)...

it was a sad day in WA (imo) when the state liquor stores closed, and it all became available in grocery stores and other places...my neighbor of more than a decade, who is not a young guy, is a longtime alcoholic...he almost killed himself a few years ago after he became able to walk to walgreens and buy vodka, he just could NOT get drunk enough after that...he finally detoxed on his own, in the heat of the summer...it was awful, I honestly didn't know if he would make it for a few days, but he refused go to the hospital :my_sad: he stayed dry until election day, then he went and bought a great big bottle of the highest octane wild turkey, and he hasn't been really sober since

I'm all for getting a buzz on occasionally, but I don't really want to drink anymore, after watching what my neighbor has gone through...I'm very grateful that I was always able to put it down, it wasn't a big thing for me

My husband feels the same way, in fact he was on the fighting side of keeping the state stores open (he works for the Cty health dept)

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2 minutes ago, karen77 said:

My husband feels the same way, in fact he was on the fighting side of keeping the state stores open (he works for the Cty health dept)

your hubs should know the damage it can cause, bet he has seen a change since then...it was hard on me because my neighbor can be really mean on the hard stuff, then I have to tell him that he is being a dick, which I don't want to do (but I will, and he knows it :P) he was fun to be around most of the time when he only drank beer...he could be tearful sometimes, but I handle that a lot better than mean.

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Here in Southern California, the bars close at 2 a.m. and last call is 1:30 a.m, although clubs have been known to stay open anyway for celebrities. 

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I don't think my gyno asks about if I feel safe at home, but she does ask about any suicidal thoughts (even though I have no history of mental health issues). So that's interesting.. maybe because of my living situation (aka college and post college apartment) she's not worried about DV? 

Also, drinking on trains is definitely a thing here lol, but maybe in the movie they changed it from beer to vodka because beer is a light drink compared to vodka.

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44 minutes ago, Queen said:

Have you ever been to Finland or Ireland? ;) Russians also tend to drink a lot. When we Finns drink, it's often all or nothing. Forget the European tradition of a glass of wine with dinner; we almost always drink to get drunk/wasted. Legal drinking age is 18 but a majority have been drunk as minors. We joke a lot about our drinking culture, but truth is the damages caused by alcohol are frequent. Some fundies or fundie lights don't drink at all, but they are in minority over here. A part of the city where I went to primary school was notoriously known for its many alcoholics, and it wasn't that safe (by Nordic standards). Nowadays, 10-15 years later it's much cleaner since people originally from Somalia, Ethiopia and Eritrea moved there, and they drink so much less. 

Some research say we have an "alcoholic-gene" over here that shows up frequently, and that might explain why so few of us can stop after one glass. I've seen people going from almost never drinking to addiction in a matter of months (in part caused by our culture that claims no one can have fun without alcohol). It was scary. 

I am Swedish and there is definitely a binge drinking culture here too. I was considered a supernerd for not tasting alcohol until I was 17, close to 18 and I was over 18 before I got drunk. Most people I know were 14-15 when they got drunk for the first time and I know people who were 12-13. Most parents were not too concerned with those that were 15 or so either. I had friends who got drunk AT SCHOOL at 14. Even back then I thought that was crazy and had absolutely no wish to join in even though I could have if I had liked to. 

I do tend to drink more European than Scandinavian, 1-2 beers or a single glass of wine with food nowadays, but when I was younger it was definitely more "What is the cheapest and easiest way to get drunk?". I used to know how many beers you could get for 100 SEK from different brands so that I could just look for the signs for the cheapest ones once I didn't have that much money. I didn't ever drink any home made booze or smuggled or imported stuff sold in secret that many of my friends did. I did pay older people to buy alcohol for me before I tured 20 and I did that for people I knew myself but only for people that I knew and only those that were over 18 but not 20 (18 you are allowed to drink in bars but you are not allowed to buy it yourself from a store).

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4 hours ago, VeganCupcake said:

Lord every time the thread goes "hot" I panic that Jinger is pregnant LMAO. But y'all are just in here talking about booze :) 

Booze - Jinger being pregnant = 10 - 0

 :evil-laugh:

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28 minutes ago, RabbitKM said:

I don't think my gyno asks about if I feel safe at home, but she does ask about any suicidal thoughts (even though I have no history of mental health issues). So that's interesting.. maybe because of my living situation (aka college and post college apartment) she's not worried about DV? 

Also, drinking on trains is definitely a thing here lol, but maybe in the movie they changed it from beer to vodka because beer is a light drink compared to vodka.

Wow I stand corrected about the train drinking here in America. You would never find anything like that down south where I am lol. In New York I take cabs so I was totally unaware. Pulling out some alcohol on the MARTA train would get you some  stares for sure! I have never realized it was different elsewhere! Plane/airport drinking is definitely a big thing down here though. 

Of all the gyno questions, I think the funniest is when they ask if I wear my seatbelt LOL. 

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2 hours ago, Queen said:

{snip}

Some research say we have an "alcoholic-gene" over here that shows up frequently, and that might explain why so few of us can stop after one glass. I've seen people going from almost never drinking to addiction in a matter of months (in part caused by our culture that claims no one can have fun without alcohol). It was scary. 

I've heard this repeatedly about the area where I live as well, lots of alcoholics here, and also, unfortunately, a lot of people use meth...these things are blamed on the fact that it rains and is gloomy almost 9 months out of the year, folks are self-medicating for SAD

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4 hours ago, missegeno said:

I grew up in Ohio where real liquor was only available at state liquor stores. Grocery stores sometimes had very diluted knock off brands (maximum 40 proof, so about half as strong as the typical stuff). State liquor stores closed by 7 or 9 depending on the day and county, so you had to plan ahead for a night of drinking. They weren't open Sundays. I waitressed there and we also weren't allowed to serve alcohol until after a certain time on Sundays. I also lived a brief while in Utah where bars could only serve one serving of alcohol at a time. No doubles, no beer backs, no long island iced teas or amfs. Just one carefully portioned drink after another.

In England and Europe (primarily Italy) I saw lots of sneaking booze and flasks into places, in part because it's cheaper than buying drinks on location (same as in the us). But it is a lot less hidden in general there. My mom (who now lives in a state with real liquor in grocery stores) was really amazed when she saw people pull out drinks on the national rail trains in England.

I live in CT and was in Ohio visiting family when I went to try to find some vodka um it was tough! And then I finally found some and thought it said "distilled" when it really said "diluted" and my sister made fun of me for like a week after that . (We were mid 20's in age at the time)

is there anywhere (besides predominantly religious areas) where there isn't a ton of drinking? CT sure likes to get its drink on too. 

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Minnesota has some massively strict alcohol rules, too. For example: You can only buy liquor from a liquor store- no exceptions. It's so strict our Walmarts have liquor stores built right beside it. 

You also can't get liquor on Holidays or Sundays. 

Plus, liquor stores can only be opened until 8 am to 10 pm. 

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There really needs to be a happy medium with alcohol regulation.

I've seen kids do absolutely idiotic things while drinking underage, and then don't get help for injured or too-drunk friends because they fear getting caught by the cops -- I think a lot less harm would be caused if we lowered the drinking age and made alcohol less of a taboo/forbidden fruit.

But on the other hand, I worked in China, where there's pretty much no drinking age (or if there is one, it's almost never enforced) and you can get very strong alcohol (rice wine) at any corner store and drink it in the open. Fun when I was in my early 20s and ready to par-taaaayyyy (and BYOB at restaurants was super fun), but then you'd see 14-year-olds getting wasted at seedy clubs, or my students (middle schoolers) coming to class reeking of beer and slurring their words. Not so fun then. Plus I think that the drinking culture there (both among locals and expats) led me to develop some pretty unhealthy habits with drinking -- I was in a kinda shitty job situation (you try having to teach 400 drunk middle schoolers in your second language), and without fail, every weekend I'd be doing as many rice wine shots as I could stand and loading up on 1 USD beers to self-medicate my stress and depression. Everyone around me was drinking all the time, so I ended up doing the same. Thankfully I've definitely gotten more moderate since then, but it was a bad time.

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On 1/5/2017 at 11:38 PM, Fun Undies said:

Just to add to the pregnant in the ER stories - it happened to me!  We were TTCAL for five months, and I was going to test on a Monday.  My brother got sick with a virus (vomiting and diarrhea) on the weekend, and passed it along to me (thanks bro).  Because I was throwing up so much, I went to the ER.  They tested me, but didn't mention they were beforehand, and the doctor comes in and asked if I knew I was pregnant.  DH and I were like, "Whattt??", because I shouldn't have even been four weeks at that point.  Turns out I ovulated later, and was closer to five weeks already.  I got some fluids, recovered the next day, and started vomiting all over again a week later, till I was like seven months along :P

As for the previous thread: special shout out to all those who answered my question about how to hopefully encourage outside of Bible quoting ;)  I literally have a few screenshots to reference for next time.  At the end of the day, it sucks being in a hospital, and that last thing I'd ever want to do is make someone anymore uncomfortable than they have to be.  Thanks everyone for lending me your perspectives <3

@seasonsoflife

. . . I'm sure I'm about to open up a can of worms here, but I'd be livid if someone else chose to baptize my child for me.  In the UU church, both my kids got a "name dedication", where the adults in their lives stand before people and declare the name, and the intent to raise them with love, respect, and acceptance, etc..  It's got a baptism feel, but it's more a recognition of that person being part of the congregation versus "saving the soul".  Though then again, I prefer baptism of older children (or even better, adults), versus babies to begin with (this is coming from a baptized in the Catholic church-gal). 

ANDDDD just to add ONE more story - three weeks ago, I had outpatient surgery, and was getting general anesthesia for the first time ever.  So definitely anxious.  My husband prayed with me before he had to leave for work.  So though understandably some of the medical team were aware I was religious, I was aware that some of the workers were of different faiths (just casual conversation while waiting on the doctor).  So as I was being wheeled back, I thought about a prayer, but felt good with my own and my husband's, and instead looked at everyone and said, "I just want to make sure - is everyone having a good day, feeling good?  Steady hands??"  We laughed a little, and then next thing I know, I'm out and wake up three hours later *.* (so yay for positive surgery experiences!)

1) I understand both their reactions, and they were what you would expect of them considering their personalities. But, yes, it was out of line.

I am dealing with my extremely Catholic mother in law right now and becoming very intolerant of people shoving their religion down my throat. I think I would smack whomever did that to my child, even if they had god intentions.

2) I hope you are feeling well.

 

 

Edited by seasonsoflife
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On 11 January 2017 at 5:24 AM, Shouldabeenacowboy said:

On the topic of drinking: strictly based on personal observation and experiences, I think many people in the USA have a weird, extreme relationship with alcohol.

On one extreme, there are fundie churches where alcohol is even forbidden in cooking. On the other extreme, there are college kids who cannot wait to be 21 to "get wasted", people who hide flasks of alcohol at concerts, etc. I have honestly not seen this in any other country where I have lived or visited, including my own country of origin.

I am not saying that all people in the USA are like that or that there aren't people like that in other countries, only what I have observed. It was always puzzling to me, coming from the perspective of growing up with wine on the table at all meals as far back as I can remember, and drinking/not drinking never being a big deal. 

You clearly haven't been to Australia! Sneaking in alcohol is a given and getting drunk even under the legal age limit is expected. If you don't drink, people won't invite you out socially.

Edited by ChairmanMeow
Missing words
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6 hours ago, goldengrove said:

bless your heart, thanks SO much for the validation, they don't listen to a damn thing I say...it's going to be complicated for me to switch (medicare and the assorted BS that goes along with that mess :S), but I have been thinking it is definitely time.

a question: I really began to notice the low thyroid stuff after my pharmacy switched me from one generic levothyroxine to another...do you think this could have had anything to do with it?

It sure can. Some generics don't work as well for people for whatever reason. I'm on a natural dessicated thyroid, Armour. It contains both T3 and T4. 

LOL at some of your names for Kum&Go! And, yes, Wisconsin's alcohol culture is horrible. I hate it. I don't drink. 

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6 hours ago, goldengrove said:

bless your heart, thanks SO much for the validation, they don't listen to a damn thing I say...it's going to be complicated for me to switch (medicare and the assorted BS that goes along with that mess :S), but I have been thinking it is definitely time.

a question: I really began to notice the low thyroid stuff after my pharmacy switched me from one generic levothyroxine to another...do you think this could have had anything to do with it?

I want to preface this by stating I am not any kind of Degreed Medical Professional, but anecdotally I did work in a pharmacy as a technician for some years. I remember that with the Levothyroxine, we very very rarely got different manufacturers of generics in stock because we were specifically supposed to keep people on the same manufacturer they had always had if possible. 

I also have thyroid problems in my family, and a few years ago my sister started having terrible reactions to generics and now is not able to take anything but the brand Synthroid. Luckily, that has gotten her stable. 

Good luck & I hope you are able to find a caring and helpful provider soon. I'm sure it's very frustrating to feel like your concerns aren't being heard. 

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Here in Ontario, Canada we have a provincial liquor store. Just this year they approved selling wine and beer in grocery stores. I'm pretty sure that's as far as we'll ever get as it's a huge source of revenue for the government and not a lot of outcry. The legal drinking age is 19. In university it's pretty standard to go binge drinking every weekend, but after mid-20s it's not very socially acceptable to do it that often. I have lots of nights I don't remember much of from those years, or don't want to remember :P After 30, Weddings, new years or occasional nights out it's acceptable to drink to get drunk but otherwise it's a glass of wine with dinner or a beer on the deck Saturday afternoon. When I spent a year in Brighton, UK, I was surprised by the after work pub fest on weekdays and the number of random drunken people I saw. Seemed more frequent than at home.

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