The Boyer Sisters, Part 2

[Destiny]

Continued from here: 

 

[ViolaSebastian]

@JermajestyDuggar, thank you for putting into vocabulary what I was trying to articulate. I genuinely feel sorry for Brigid right now. Gaslighting is a common tactic of psychological abuse, and if he's trying to put those moves on a semi-anonymous woman on an internet forum, I can't begin to imagine what she's in for down the line. I genuinely considered debating this creep (and yes, @Gabe, I'm going to be harsh and use that word to describe you) but, in the end, it would just be a waste of my time and an annoyance--and really, the best way to deal with these sorts of people is to not engage in their games. This is a man who doesn't believe I'm capable of autonomy, doesn't think I possess the same rights as he does, and doesn't think it's possible that I'm on equal (or greater) intellectual footing as him because he has a penis and I have a vagina. I can't waste my time and effort debating that bullshit with some young dude on the internet when I have to save that energy to prove every day--in real life--that I am worthy and capable of all those things.

As a side note, I've found that gaslighting seems to be a favorite tool of (self-styled or actual) intellectual men. I seem to attract them, for some reason, but I'm always quick to shut it down, because my father was a gaslighter extraordinaire and I therefore have little patience for it. It's amazing how quickly the relationship goes from "you're a very intelligent woman" to "you're incapable to interpreting reality correctly and need my help to tell you what just happened." 

[Mrs Ms]

Badly quoted from the last thread:

Unlike the general consensus concerning the sotdrt. (I had my own desk  ) I was taught from the very beginning to think for myself. My parents never gave us rote answers but instead showed us the reasoning and made us figure things out for ourselves. Our schooling was very flexible and I thrived in the environment of creativity. Some of my siblings had a harder time learning in a free environment but for me it was as ideal as I can imagine. I can still hear my mother saying "think before you speak" "think before you act" I find it hard to understand the vitriol towards homeschooling and the way I was brought up, because I can't imagine a better upbringing than the one I had.

 

Sorry, I've been sick the last few days and have had to contend with reading as my thoughts were too scrambled. 

@Gabe You say some of your siblings had a harder time. What did your parents do different for them then? Otherwise you have an example in your direct family how one size fits all is sooooo not the answer and that your homeschooling wasn't perfect even for other people in your own house.

I currently homeschool my school aged child and luckily the curriculum and supplements I use work perfect for this child. If it doesn't for my baby once we reach school age, I'd like to think I'd adjust my teaching style and the curriculum I use to do the best for my child - even if the hoped for third child makes an appearance by then.

 

You said your plans for children are between your wife and yourself. Couldn't be happier to hear that! Please really mean it and really think what will be best for the two of you and any children you have. Just because some people read the bible to mean "try to get pregnant every time you have sex and the wife MUST have sex when the husband wants it" doesn't mean you have to follow the group.

 

And a small aside that I cannot figure out how to write so it isn't crude. Where I live, if the person getting to call all the shots is the one with the penis, because only men can think with sound logic, you are thinking with the wrong part of your anatomy and that is called a "dickhead"

[Hummingbird]

Well! What a rollercoaster ride THAT was! I only wanted to say how enviable Gabe's sewing skills are. But make no mistake, Brigid is no slouch in the dressmaking department either. Her alignment and placement of the entire row of button holes down the front of the bodice of her wedding dress is amazing. The young Boyer women have such wonderful talents, I hate to see them fade away, one by one, once early marriage and family obligations obscure their personhood.

[Grimalkin]

     I'm not trying to argue but maybe understand better. Where was he gas lighting? I do think he wanted us to believe he meant to stir us up, and manipulated this whole thing. I don't think the sisters were trolling us either.I think he was trying to save face.(is that what gas lighting is? ) I think he was genuinely surprised at our response. He fully expected us to jump at his offer. I bet his little show would of been considerd charming and even encouraged in his little homeschooling group. To me it shows how ignorant he is. I don't think he is used to being laughed at and mocked like that, or having people so bluntly disagree and point out specific flaws in his thought process. In his mind it probably did feel like a dog pile. How often has he ever had people react like that? When he tried to argue he could not answer any specific questions. His responses were so generalized and poorly thought out. That was probably accepted and applauded by his parent teachers who likely think he is the smartest most wonderful boy in the world. I think my son is the smartest most wonderful boy in the world. I think my daughters are wonderful, smart intelligent ladies. How often has he ever had true unbiased criticism? He couldn't handle it. He was a big fish in a tiny puddle, and can't seem to swim with us glorious Dolphins in the big blue sea.

[hoipolloi]

4 hours ago, Grimalkin said:

I do think he wanted us to believe he meant to stir us up, and manipulated this whole thing.

This is a common tactic with fundies. They make ass in a big way by coming here & flaming out or dumping on FJ as Lydia Coghlan Hinrichs did on FB.

When they're shown up for the ignorami they are, they try to pretend it was all a big gotcha.

 

[laPapessaGiovanna]

Re the gaslighting, this is what happened. Quoting from posts he wrote in the previous thread

Quote

I would be happy to debate a single member of FJ on a particular topic for a specific amount of time under a formal set of debate rules in a thread dedicated to the debate. If that is something you would like, feel free to message my profile with a formal invitation and I will draw up some rules and conditions under which I will engage you.

Someone (sorry can't find who at the moment feel free to add and correct me) made him notice that he wanted to draw up the rules all by himself and not seeking a common ground with us pesky heathen wimminz. He replied

Quote

You are welcome to have a say in the rules. I am sorry if I implied that you would not. 

Summing up: he stated something stupid, when called out he didn't say "sorry I was an ass and said something I regret" or "I was wrong in demanding to draw the rules all by myself" or "sorry I explained myself very poorly". Instead he said he was sorry IF (not even sure) he IMPLIED something he previously had flat out stated, as if the poster who called him out was a poor looney who makes up things in her own mind and read in his words things that weren't there. This was a minor example of an only apparently innocent manipulative tactic aimed at discredit a person messing up with her own memory and self confidence called gaslighting. It obviously works best in oral communication and if skillfully done it will make the victim doubt anything and everything creating a sort of parallel reality. It is often a component of domestic violence and other types of abuse. Unfortunately for @Gabe if in rl conversations verba volant on FJ scripta manent.

[charmedforsure]

35 minutes ago, laPapessaGiovanna said:

snip

Unfortunately for @Gabe if in rl conversations verba volant on FJ scripta manent.

Just under 2 minutes to go in the day, and thanks to FJ, I learned my one new thing for the day... 

Spoken words fly away, but written words remain. 

How scrumptious... even more so in a dead language! 

[DancingPhalanges]

I hate the, "If  I said/did something, Then I'm sorry", routine. If-then apologies are not apologies and insincere. They are in the same family of hiding rude, sarcastic, mean remarks behind "I was just joking, get a sense of humor, lighten up" statements.

These type of verbal manipulations are called out in our home. 

[formergothardite]

I think he was humiliated and trying to save face by lying and saying that he didn't say only he would write rules.

We were visited an average fundie guy who has been raised to believe he thinks for himself and knows answers to tough questions and he was stumped by the first simple questions asked him. His automatic response is then to try and control the entire conversation to hopefully give himself an edge. And when he is shown how ridiculous his "rules" are, there is no way he was going to admit that he was wrong to us. So he tried to lie and say he never said what he said, but we can all look back and read the truth. 

I do think he was trying to manipulate the conversation to make it seem like he never said that because he is truly embarrassed at how poorly he did. This had to be a blow to his manliness that he wasn't even capable of answering even one slightly challenging question. 

I'll always have a slight bit of hope for these fundies ever since the one very vile fundie showed back up to apologize and say he has totally changed his view on everything and that the discussions here did get him thinking about things. I can't remember his name, but he was the one who told a member who was gay that he would have no issue personally picking up a stone to help stone her to death. 

[Palimpsest]

31 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

I'll always have a slight bit of hope for these fundies ever since the one very vile fundie showed back up to apologize and say he has totally changed his view on everything and that the discussions here did get him thinking about things. I can't remember his name, but he was the one who told a member who was gay that he would have no issue personally picking up a stone to help stone her to death. 

I can't remember the name either but that did actually happen.  It was surprising.

Generally these Fundie puppies get scared off very fast.  It's not the dog pile (in Fundiespeak that means a lot of people are asking me hard questions) or the "vitriol" (translation, hard questions I can't answer) but the fact that they are never taught to debate properly.  Disagreement, especially from uppity women, is very threatening and when lobbing Bible texts at us, their usual form of debate, doesn't work they panic.

They also hate to be laughed at.  Sorry, @Gabe, if you are still reading here, but trying to make your own rules on an internet forum was really funny.  So was your assumption that we were all rabidly anti-homeschooling.  Poor research there before you jumped in - always know your adversaries.

Gabe ran away before I could ask him to explain some of the woffle in his first explanatory post.  I got the definition of Biblical adulthood being age 20 bit (blah, blah, Exodus 38, Numbers 14, and so on) but I wanted to grill him more on his understanding of complementarian marriage, his vast experiences in inner cities, and his personal knowledge of how CPS works.

Seriously, Kristina had more sticking power and lasted much longer at than most of the men that have tried to get us to mend our ways or understand their beliefs.

[EmiGirl]

I was offended that we are all anti Jesus. I'm a Christian and I love Jesus. Just because we don't believe like him doesn't mean we aren't Christians.

[formergothardite]

1 hour ago, Palimpsest said:

Seriously, Kristina had more sticking power and lasted much longer at than most of the men that have tried to get us to mend our ways or understand their beliefs.

She really did and she at least attempted to answer questions. Gabe is the first one who demanded a special thread with rules he wrote.  So while he may not be tougher than a young, sheltered fundie woman, he will be remembered for that. 

Looking at his FB page I see that in 2009 he was tagged in some pictures of a homeschool dance event where they dressed like Native Americans and waved Bibles around. I guess that their version of history didn't include all the terrible things done to NA in the name of Christianity, including forced conversions.  

[Palimpsest]

5 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

Gabe is the first one who demanded a special thread with rules he wrote

Perhaps we should ask for that as a post count title? 

"Needs special thread with Gabe's Rules of Order."

1 hour ago, EmiGirl said:

Just because we don't believe like him doesn't mean we aren't Christians.

Well, some of us are indeed evil Atheists.  

But we do have a lot of Christians here too.  In fact the atheists are probably outnumbered at least 2 to 1.

[Grimalkin]

13 hours ago, hoipolloi said:

This is a common tactic with fundies. They make ass in a big way by coming here & flaming out or dumping on FJ as Lydia Coghlan Hinrichs did on FB.

When they're shown up for the ignorami they are, they try to pretend it was all a big gotcha.

 

     Thus trying to make us question our sanity which would mean gas lighting. Got it, thanks. I think I had trouble understanding it because they did such a bad job and make no sense whatsoever. I imagine their peers reading the threads and doing the Emporer Has no Clothes act with it. 

@laPapessaGiovanna thank you too. Now I feel like "duh!" It was sort of subtle. To me anyway. 

[Grimalkin]

4 hours ago, formergothardite said:

 

We were visited an average fundie guy who has been raised to believe he thinks for himself and knows answers to tough questions and he was stumped by the first simple questions asked him. His automatic response is then to try and control the entire conversation to hopefully give himself an edge. And when he is shown how ridiculous his "rules" are, there is no way he was going to admit that he was wrong to us. So he tried to lie and say he never said what he said, but we can all look back and read the truth. 

I do think he was trying to manipulate the conversation to make it seem like he never said that because he is truly embarrassed at how poorly he did. This had to be a blow to his manliness that he wasn't even capable of answering even one slightly challenging question. 

 

        This really sums up my thoughts perfectly. They are given such a false sense of security.

[MargaretElliott]

Oh man, I just surfaced from this rabbit hole (I almost needed Grappa and Cognac to rescue me ) and I must say, I'm sad @Gabe's left. I have so many questions! I want to know about complementarianism. I'm writing a novel about this. One that isn't necessarily flattering to Gabe and his ilk, but still...

I can kind of see both sides. Having people question your beliefs, your lifestyle, and everything you hold dear has got to suck. It must feel like you're being attacked, however politely the questions are phrased. Then again, we're a site dedicated to discussing how fundamentalism is bad. What on earth did he expect? Agreement? Conversion? Nah, son. We snark. It's what we do.

[Palimpsest]

1 hour ago, MargaretElliott said:

I have so many questions! I want to know about complementarianism. I'm writing a novel about this. One that isn't necessarily flattering to Gabe and his ilk, but still...

Ah, you might find this helpful as Gabe has apparently left the building (also see the article he is responding to, she links in the first paragraph). 

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/lovejoyfeminism/2011/09/a-complementarian-responds.html

And there is also this pablum that got stuck in my bookmarks:

https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/four-dangers-for-complementarians

The Wartburg Watch points out that the Gospel Coalition often gets confused:

http://thewartburgwatch.com/2012/08/16/complementarian-confusion-at-the-gospel-coalition/

And, dammit, I wish I could find the article that said Complementarianism was "Patriarchy in drag" and the one that had a very amusing chart.  I think they were both on Patheos.

I want to read your novel.

 

 

[MargaretElliott]

Thanks @Palimpsest! These are definitely going into my "sources" folder. I might start a blog where I post snippets of the novel... not sure if I'm comfortable presenting it to the world yet (it's still so rough!) But I'm having trouble with balancing character relationships, and I think these will help 

[refugee]

17 hours ago, formergothardite said:

 

I'll always have a slight bit of hope for these fundies ever since the one very vile fundie showed back up to apologize and say he has totally changed his view on everything and that the discussions here did get him thinking about things. I can't remember his name, but he was the one who told a member who was gay that he would have no issue personally picking up a stone to help stone her to death.

 

I think that was Joseycat.

9 hours ago, Palimpsest said:

Ah, you might find this helpful as Gabe has apparently left the building (also see the article he is responding to, she links in the first paragraph). 

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/lovejoyfeminism/2011/09/a-complementarian-responds.html

And there is also this pablum that got stuck in my bookmarks:

https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/four-dangers-for-complementarians

The Wartburg Watch points out that the Gospel Coalition often gets confused:

http://thewartburgwatch.com/2012/08/16/complementarian-confusion-at-the-gospel-coalition/

And, dammit, I wish I could find the article that said Complementarianism was "Patriarchy in drag" and the one that had a very amusing chart.  I think they were both on Patheos.

I want to read your novel.

 

 

I believe the Council on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood (is that the right name? I tend to avoid them as much as possible these days) has lots of resources on their webpage. There's also a book you can still download for free on "biblical" roles for men and women. I have not been able to bring myself to do that. Here's a link if you're interested. 

http://www.desiringgod.org/books/recovering-biblical-manhood-and-womanhood

And wasn't it the Wartburg Watch that posted/dissected Grudem's ridiculous list of things women could and couldn't do with regard to church and religion? I don't have a link handy, as I just dropped by to see what's been talked about since work got busy and I've had no time for web-cruising.

I did a lot of reading on complementarianism when I was deprogramming myself from the cult of our former church. I can't do it now; it makes me want to throw up. Guess that means I'm still processing.

[wotdancer]

17 hours ago, Palimpsest said:

<snip>

And, dammit, I wish I could find the article that said Complementarianism was "Patriarchy in drag" and the one that had a very amusing chart.  I think they were both on Patheos.

I want to read your novel.

 

 

Patriarchy in drag is in this article - 

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/phoenixandolivebranch/2012/06/complementarianism-is-patriarchy-in-drag/

 

I wish @Gabe would come back and discuss (not debate...) with us.

[Palimpsest]

1 hour ago, wotdancer said:

Patriarchy in drag is in this article - 

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/phoenixandolivebranch/2012/06/complementarianism-is-patriarchy-in-drag/

 

I wish @Gabe would come back and discuss (not debate...) with us.

Thank you!  It didn't come up for me yesterday in my quick search. That article tells it like it is - in my opinion.

Gabe has deserted us, I fear.  Was it something we said?

[catlady]

I'd like @Gabe to come back, too. I'm holding out hope that he was busy all week and is waiting for the weekend......

[Palimpsest]

11 hours ago, refugee said:

I think that was Joseycat.

Miss Racquel's little buddy?  Well done.

Why so he did - I can't remember if we decided he was just playing us.  Does Josiah still hang out with the orphan hugger?

I was thinking of someone else, who has come back a few times.  I remember now who it was, but the thanks were via PM.  He sounded sincere.

[Lurky]

I'm holding out hope that it's Fundy Friday again!