Michael and Brandon Keilen- Part 2

[send*the*ferrets]

20 hours ago, Hmmm_idolatry said:

I do think that the Bates products can result in conversions.  If you look at their Instagram accounts, you'll see comments from fans along the lines of, "I just love your values" , "I've recently started wearing only skirts, and I've asked my parents to consider only courtships for me, not dating", and "I've decided to homeschool my kids and I want to use the curriculum that you use".  It's very, very disturbing.  

So, yes, IMO, any books that they put out are just as dangerous as ISIS propaganda.  Religious fundamentalism of any sort, be it Christian or Muslim is dangerous.  

If my kid came to me and asked me to consider imposing a stricter set of rules on them than what they already had, I'd just think, "well, great- I don't need to impose any more rules because they are regulating themselves." Although in the case of courting, I would probably have a serious conversation about why they felt that way... it just seems such an odd conversation to me, for the child to ask the parents to be more restrictive. I'd assume they could always restrict themselves more anyway (date in groups vs alone) without expressly asking permission? Or is it only courting if you can tell everybody how Godly you and your parents are and how much you've prayed about it? Hmmm. 

[lumpentheologie]

15 minutes ago, send*the*ferrets said:

If my kid came to me and asked me to consider imposing a stricter set of rules on them than what they already had, I'd just think, "well, great- I don't need to impose any more rules because they are regulating themselves." Although in the case of courting, I would probably have a serious conversation about why they felt that way... it just seems such an odd conversation to me, for the child to ask the parents to be more restrictive. I'd assume they could always restrict themselves more anyway (date in groups vs alone) without expressly asking permission? Or is it only courting if you can tell everybody how Godly you and your parents are and how much you've prayed about it? Hmmm. 

I get wanting accountability for something, although I would've been the last person to ask my parents for more rules as a teenager.  But I'm far more likely to stick to something I want to do if I feel like I'm responsible to someone else for it.  I've asked authority figures for more rules because I couldn't self-regulate  well -- like when I was writing my BA thesis I asked my advisor to make me hand in 10 pages of writing every two weeks, and that was very helpful for me.  Not saying that this makes asking your parents to only let you court normal, though. 

[HereticHick]

Michael and Brandon are busy little beavers (unlike, say, Lawson). I wonder if these side hustles are an indication that Brandon's job may not be that secure? Or they are finally moving to Big Sandy and are trying to earn money for the move (and home purchase)

[formergothardite]

1 hour ago, eleanora3 said:

If you're up to talking about it, I am probably less educated on IBLP than most FJers and am extremely curious about it all.

Recovering Grace is a really great place to start since they have copies of a lot of the material and explain all the crazy. Heresy(or heretic?) in the Heartland is a blog by a former IBLP student. and she has blog posts about the political influence IBLP has. 

If you want to read the defense of Gothard by a rabid fan, Discovering Grace is the site for that. This guy sided with Gothard after Gil and Company shoved him out of the cult. His defenses doesn't seem to work because he openly admit that Gothard targeted pretty young teens to keep him company as he traveled and worked. He tries to claim this is normal. Very few believe him. 

[actuallyjessica]

8 hours ago, formergothardite said:

You are very clueless on how cults and even fundie churches work. The converts aren't stupid, they are vulnerable. Cults like IBLP prey on people's vulnerability. For someone who grew up in a dysfunctional home, yes a smiling, seemingly happy family is appealing. They want what the Bates appear to have and the Bates are so good at selling it that a good many people don't realize none of that is real. On the surface they don't look crazy like they Duggars. 

Years before my family even thought about joining IBLP they ended up buying the huge animal Character books made by Gothard's creepy brother. They had no idea the rest of IBLP's teachings, they just thought they were buying some Christian character stories with really amazing pictures(the drawings truly are stunning). And then they ended up buying other stuff slowly as the years went by. Nothing that would reveal the true insanity of IBLP. So when they got to a point where life was falling to pieces and they were vulnerable, it was easier for that oh so happy IBLP family who had sold them this stuff to sweep in and convince them that joining IBLP would help fix their problems. Sure there were some people who said, even back then, that IBLP was bad, but my parents at that point had been using their materials for years and none of it looked too crazy. 

My parents weren't stupid, they were vulnerable and being preyed on by a fine tuned cult machine that knows exactly how to pull people in. 

So, at which point do you consider members of cults to no longer be vulnerable?

[formergothardite]

I think it would differ for each person. But also, cults do their best to keep people in a vulnerable state. When your entire life revolves around a church or an organization like IBLP, it can be extremely hard to leave. And then there are people like the Bates who I doubt got into it because they are vulnerable, but instead because it gave them power and an excuse to be shitty humans. 

Do you still think people who join things like IBLP are stupid? Do you understand how little books like what Brandon is making can be used as a stepping stone to help lure people into the cult? 

[Palimpsest]

@actuallyjessica, how long have you been hanging around Free Jinger?

Really, your ignorance is astounding, you obviously lack reading comprehension, and your lack of compassion and understanding about cult issues should make you ashamed of yourself.

Here's a simple overview about cults and how everybody may be vulnerable to their recruitment tactics at some point in their lives.  Read it and learn.

http://www.apologeticsindex.org/265-who-joins-cults-and-why

[actuallyjessica]

I think it would differ for each person. But also, cults do their best to keep people in a vulnerable state. When your entire life revolves around a church or an organization like IBLP, it can be extremely hard to leave. And then there are people like the Bates who I doubt got into it because they are vulnerable, but instead because it gave them power and an excuse to be shitty humans. 
Do you still think people who join things like IBLP are stupid? Do you understand how little books like what Brandon is making can be used as a stepping stone to help lure people into the cult? 

Thanks for your response.

The reason I asked is because you have seemed very hell bent in the past, that even the kids of the cult are all little evil masterminds. Wondering if you saw your parents or your family (when they were still involved) the same way as you see the other families? If not, why not?

I've asked you before for information about your experiences and you have never given an answer.

You just come back with little bits here and there and then you're gone again when someone really presses you for information.

@actuallyjessica, how long have you been hanging around Free Jinger?
Really, your ignorance is astounding, you obviously lack reading comprehension, and your lack of compassion and understanding about cult issues should make you ashamed of yourself.
Here's a simple overview about cults and how everybody may be vulnerable to their recruitment tactics at some point in their lives.  Read it and learn.
http://www.apologeticsindex.org/265-who-joins-cults-and-why

I have plenty of compassion. I understand that not everything is black and white and it everything we read on the internet is reality.

I just find a lot of people to be hypocritical, which is unjust to the point of hilarity.

The amount of time you and the little minions spend chasing my posts around and telling me how wrong I am, even though you've said many times you believe me to be ignorant. If you think that, why bother trying to get me to ~see the way you do? I very rarely respond or make reference to any of the posters who have made it clear they don't like me, so... why the pile ons?


Makes no sense at all.

[Palimpsest]

6 minutes ago, actuallyjessica said:

I've asked you before for information about your experiences and you have never given an answer.

You just come back with little bits here and there and then you're gone again when someone really presses you for information.

@formergothardite has given you plenty of answers over years.  You just haven't read them properly.  You seem to be demanding that FG out herself just to satisfy you.

 

8 minutes ago, actuallyjessica said:

The amount of time you and the little minions spend chasing my posts around and telling me how wrong I am, even though you've said many times you believe me to be ignorant. If you think that, why bother trying to get me to ~see the way you do? I very rarely respond or make reference to any of the posters who have made it clear they don't like me, so... why the pile ons?

You flatter yourself, my dear.

There are no little minions just people who disagree with you.  You have drawn attention to yourself by your deliberately provocative posts, and your willful misunderstanding of the concepts we discuss here.  We are not an Alyssa Bates fan club, much though you want us to be one.

I don't expect to change your mind about anything - but I wish you would stop making the same stupid statements and repeat your misconceptions over and over again just to annoy people.

And it is very obvious that you intend to be annoying and to waste FG's time.

[VelociRapture]

13 minutes ago, actuallyjessica said:

Thanks for your response.

The reason I asked is because you have seemed very hell bent in the past, that even the kids of the cult are all little evil masterminds. Wondering if you saw your parents or your family (when they were still involved) the same way as you see the other families? If not, why not?

I've asked you before for information about your experiences and you have never given an answer.

You just come back with little bits here and there and then you're gone again when someone really presses you for information.
I have plenty of compassion. I understand that not everything is black and white and it everything we read on the internet is reality.

I just find a lot of people to be hypocritical, which is unjust to the point of hilarity.

The amount of time you and the little minions spend chasing my posts around and telling me how wrong I am, even though you've said many times you believe me to be ignorant. If you think that, why bother trying to get me to ~see the way you do? I very rarely respond or make reference to any of the posters who have made it clear they don't like me, so... why the pile ons?


Makes no sense at all.

This time, I would think the pile ons are because you actually did show a distinct lack of compassion and understanding for people who become involved. I can't speak about other incidents - I would need a specific example and I'd have to look through responses to get an idea. 

I spend time responding to you occasionally because your posts can't go unanswered. Not when they include bad or incorrect information. You can choose to learn from what we write in response or you can ignore it. That's your own choice. 

Personally, my hope with those responses is that someone new to the site or IBLP reads them and winds up understanding how this cult actually works or why so many of us believe they are dangerous. It's not just the fact that they try to recruit people into their cult - it's the fact that they're actively seeking to get politicians elected who want to force their beliefs onto the rest of us. I know you're in Australia, so maybe that doesn't directly impact you, but it does impact a great number of FJers. 

*Speaking only for myself here. Others may have other reasons and can explain for themselves if they choose to.

---------

As for @formergotharditeI've always found her to be helpful and patient in explaining things. She's an excellent resource for understanding IBLP and ATI, but she's only one person and I'm guessing it can get to be a bit much at times. It's why I've been recommending Recovering Grace for curious people recently - it's a great site and it helps give FG a break from explaining things in detail again.

[formergothardite]

48 minutes ago, actuallyjessica said:

The reason I asked is because you have seemed very hell bent in the past, that even the kids of the cult are all little evil masterminds. Wondering if you saw your parents or your family (when they were still involved) the same way as you see the other families? If not, why not?

The kids? No I haven't. Children really can't help how they are being raised. Now adults who choose to stay in the cult and try to sugar coat evil, yeah, I criticize them. 

At the time did I see my family like that? No. Looking back yes I can see where my parents realized that what they were doing was wrong, but continued to do it. They made really bad decisions that hurt their children.  It is something I've talked about with my parents. It wasn't till recently that they finally admitted that they put their kids in a really bad cult. 

53 minutes ago, actuallyjessica said:

I've asked you before for information about your experiences and you have never given an answer.

I've responded to you lots even in private messages. What do you want? I'll explain again since you seem to not have read my past posts. I'm the third of nine children. My parents joined ATI when I was 13 because my older siblings had gotten involved in drugs and alcohol. My parents were devastated that their first two kids were having so many problems. ATI was presented as the answer. I guess in a way in worked because none of the rest of use did drugs or drank. My parents did expect us to go to college and work jobs. I wore pants, shorts and home made culottes. I got sent to a program called EXCEL which was several months of intense brainwashing. I went to college fairly clueless about life. 

I'm now married and have two children and two cats. My dogs have passed away. I don't particularly like the cats they just showed up and wouldn't leave. One was pregnant and I took it to have a cat abortion. I live in a rural part of NC. We have a smaller home and a lot of wooded land. I've suffered from some pretty severe depression and anxiety problems. I've recently become a high carb, low fat SOS vegan. I can't do yoga but I've been told I should take private lessons. I probably won't. 

[Mela99]

22 hours ago, HereticHick said:

Michael and Brandon are busy little beavers (unlike, say, Lawson). I wonder if these side hustles are an indication that Brandon's job may not be that secure? Or they are finally moving to Big Sandy and are trying to earn money for the move (and home purchase)

Could also be they want something to focus on to take away from their fertility worries. Gives them a project. I get that.

[Jess]

23 hours ago, HereticHick said:

Michael and Brandon are busy little beavers (unlike, say, Lawson). I wonder if these side hustles are an indication that Brandon's job may not be that secure? Or they are finally moving to Big Sandy and are trying to earn money for the move (and home purchase)

It might be for fertility treatments I doubt they have good insurance/any insurance. I don't think they would ever do say invetro but IUI or just taking prescription drugs to help with fertility maybe.

[socalrules]

Michael grew up in a family that seemed to be broke much of the time. I can see her always hustling to make sure she and her family don't have to experience that in the future. Michael and Brandon working to make sure their family doesn't go without is much better than the Duggar kids who get married and seem to have no income other than TLC and Daddy. I can see Michael squirreling away every cent so as to not go without again. Most of the Bates kids do seem like hard workers who don't want to go back down that road of poverty. They likely know the show won't last forever since it's on a small network and they aren't likely making enough to support everyone's household. All of the adult kids either go to school or work, none are sitting around doing nothing. I always thought that they were probably a lot poorer for many years than they let on and lived a life closer to most of the fundies with huge families. Smiling and trying to keep up with other fundies while hiding how the bad situation the lifestyle puts you in. 

[VineHeart137]

2 hours ago, socalrules said:

Michael grew up in a family that seemed to be broke much of the time. I can see her always hustling to make sure she and her family don't have to experience that in the future. Michael and Brandon working to make sure their family doesn't go without is much better than the Duggar kids who get married and seem to have no income other than TLC and Daddy. 

What are you talking about, Derick and Jill have a fabulous grifting business, and Jessa gets paid to tell other women how to be modest like she is! It's obviously very hard work to be a Duggar!

[nolongerIFBx]

On 3/28/2017 at 5:02 AM, formergothardite said:

You are very clueless on how cults and even fundie churches work. The converts aren't stupid, they are vulnerable. Cults like IBLP prey on people's vulnerability. For someone who grew up in a dysfunctional home, yes a smiling, seemingly happy family is appealing. They want what the Bates appear to have and the Bates are so good at selling it that a good many people don't realize none of that is real. On the surface they don't look crazy like they Duggars. 

Years before my family even thought about joining IBLP they ended up buying the huge animal Character books made by Gothard's creepy brother. They had no idea the rest of IBLP's teachings, they just thought they were buying some Christian character stories with really amazing pictures(the drawings truly are stunning). And then they ended up buying other stuff slowly as the years went by. Nothing that would reveal the true insanity of IBLP. So when they got to a point where life was falling to pieces and they were vulnerable, it was easier for that oh so happy IBLP family who had sold them this stuff to sweep in and convince them that joining IBLP would help fix their problems. Sure there were some people who said, even back then, that IBLP was bad, but my parents at that point had been using their materials for years and none of it looked too crazy. 

My parents weren't stupid, they were vulnerable and being preyed on by a fine tuned cult machine that knows exactly how to pull people in. 

Thank you. Yes, some of us were born into it. And our parents weren't stupid. One of mine teaches at the college level. Both were physically and emotionally abused as children.  They sought healing in Christianity, learning about a God who loved them. But their childhoods set them up for a desire to please and placate their parent, a need for rules, as well as a healthy dose of a persecution complex, so the churches they attended became more and more the ones who focused on rules to keep you right with God (so your heavenly parent never got angry and punished you) and how all the world was bad and only you were the ones who really, really were trying to do right.

Try having a little compassion on those who are hurting even if they seek help from a different source than you would.

[BeccaGrim]

On 3/26/2017 at 1:51 AM, JillyO said:

May they never, ever, find a pubisher willing to spread their hate.

I'm sure they have one. Or they can self-publish (FYI Elf on the Shelf was a self pubbed book initially). Or Gil can open an LLC publishing house entitled "I know best publishing llc" and they'll put it out that way. There's no gatekeeper anymore. I do this for a living IRL. If you want to put out a book, you can put out a book. Easy. 

[SorenaJ]

Would the Bateses be allowed to use fertility drugs? 

[Melissa1977]

22 minutes ago, SorenaJ said:

Would the Bateses be allowed to use fertility drugs? 

According to what they preach, no they aren't. Despite hypocrisy is a must in their cult, Brandon and Michael seem very consequent so maybe they're really leaving up to God and just taking drugs to help an actual pregnancy, as Erin did.

[JMO]

On 3/29/2017 at 10:10 AM, Mela99 said:

Could also be they want something to focus on to take away from their fertility worries. Gives them a project. I get that.

This is my belief too.  Prior to marriage she loved to sew and he loved to draw.  I can see them wanting to feel productive and to use their talents to provide for children.  So she sews baby stuff and he writes a children's book that has an obvious cliff hanger ending (which means an opening for more books).  The fact that they can make some money off of it helps but I think mainly it gives them something to use up free time and get their mind off of not being pregnant yet. 

[HereticHick]

Michael really needs to raise the prices on her baby sets--even if just a couple of bucks. She's really selling herself short.

[Feminist_Defrauder91]

On ‎3‎/‎27‎/‎2017 at 2:11 AM, JillyO said:

And yes, that includes indoctrinating future generations through children's books that promote patriarchy, female submission, anti-intellectualism, homophobia, and Islamophobia (among many other harmful beliefs). If you don't think that's a problem, then you are part of the problem.

Which ISIS and the Taliban also support.  I can't get over these right wing Christian fundies who are discriminatory towards moderate, peaceful Muslims, but who can't wrap their brain around the fact that they are unsettlingly similar to Islamic extremists in some of their views, minus the violence.

I think it's more a skin color thing (i.e. "we don't trust brown people, and all Muslims are scary brown people!") than a religion thing, imo.

[Mela99]

On 4/10/2017 at 0:48 PM, HereticHick said:

Michael really needs to raise the prices on her baby sets--even if just a couple of bucks. She's really selling herself short.

I give her credit though, she can't keep them in stock. She could be making bank if she'd up the price to $30.00

[jqlgoblue]

At least! I can see her wanting them to be affordable but I have to imagine a fair amount of time goes into each one. I feel like she should be paying herself a fair hourly wage.

[Jane M.]

My heart goes to Michael. She seems so sweet and like she could be a great mom. 

In that environment that she grew up where as a woman having kids is your only goal in life, this fertility issue must be extra hard on her. 

My best wishes to her. Hopefully she'll get that baby one day.