Counting On Season Two - Part 6

[QuiverDance]

I cannot imagine going from my first kiss to having full blown penetrative sex on the same day.  That sounds so awful and traumatic.  I hope that Jeremy has enough experience that he can ease Jinger into things lovingly.  I know these girls probably want to get down and dirty, but maybe not all in the span of a few hours. 

[mizandry]

Wow, forgive me if this has already been discussed, but... I'm watching now and the subtext between Jill's eye rolling/body language towards Derrick and his comments about Central America are friggin intense.  

I think you all are right about Jill regretting this mission-cation, and from the way she was reacting to Derrick's justifications for them being there, I would not be surprised if she feels trapped in what is, for her, a traumatizing situation. And Derrick keeps speaking over that visible reality with his fuckin' "we" statements that are clearly only his sentiments. 

I'm no doctor, but I would not be surprised if she has PTSD since she apparently spent the entire year completely terrified and still breaks down just talking about it, and seems really depressed. This was a stark contrast to her sheltered background; I don't think she could even conceive of how different life in Central America would be until she was actually living it. I imagine she's frustrated with Derrick (and rightfully so), because he's clearly not letting her struggles to cope with these massive lifestyle changes impact his burning desire to be a martyr. The way he smiles every time she discusses in a TH the possibility of him dying just... oh my god this dude. You can see she's gritting her teeth and trying to fix her face but can't.

Derrick really does seem to be operating from this attitude of, "You're an extension of me so what I want to do is what we want to do, helpmeet." This seems to have been an eye-opener for Jill in some very unexpected ways and part of me feels sorry for her. As smug and foolish as she's been, and as much as I ultimately do dislike her entire family on deal-breaking grounds and judge her for the condescending, racist bullshit she and her relatives perpetuate, on a basic human level? I just find this really sad. 
 

[actuallyjessica]

It spoke volumes to me when Scott said "so glad to have you back"... Jill and Derrick were crickets.

[Jana814]

7 minutes ago, actuallyjessica said:

It spoke volumes to me when Scott said "so glad to have you back"... Jill and Derrick were crickets.

Yes it does. I feel in some way some of the crew members care more about the kids safety then the parents do.  

[Buzzard]

I'm still wondering what they were doing in TN.  It was just very weird that all of them plus the film crew would go there to film this little space filler rather than doing a sit down at the TTH or the "guest house."    We know that it was actually their crew because Mr. Jim was there.

Was there a speaking engagement that we arent aware of?  Why fly jeremy in for a 5 minute appearance?  They could have done that via skype like they did with Jill.

[calimojo]

could it have something to do with Amy?  Perhaps the duggar girls are going to be featured in one of Amy's shows, supporting her music career? 

And it looked like they were in someone's house.  In fact, I had the impression it was Scott's house by the way he said thank you for coming or something at the end.

[calimojo]

Jill and the scary story:

 

I honestly do believe that the story Jill told about the loud noise, etc happened.  And even though it turned out to be a shower rack,  I believe that Jill is living in a place of fear most of the time, so even something like that was traumatic.  Derick is so disappointing to me.  He is not being a proper headship to his family if he can't tell just how frightened and unhappy Jill is.   Whether or not her fears are based on reality  isn't the point.  The point is that she feels this fear and it is real to her.  I don't think she is cut out to be a missionary's wife. I think she needs to be stateside in a small town with a small circle of friends or her family.  Derick could do a lot of mission work right here in the US.  He has a college degree,  he could go to seminary and become a pastor.  I think Jill would do well as the wife of a pastor.    Jill is not the same sweet, bubbly goody goody girl she was before.  Her body had a very difficult labor and c/s to recover from.  I still think she had complications that they never revealed publicly.   THen she has a dramatic upheaval in what is her normal life by going to CA with a baby.  I think her anxiety level is higher because of the baby.    If she and Derick had gone to CA and lived there before she had Israel,  she might have coped with it much better.  I know that after having my kids,  I was less adventurous than I was before, because I had a better appreciation of risk and danger once I was responsible for my children than before I had kids. 

 

Just some more thoughts on Jill,  I know we like to snark on her here for obvious reasons,  But I am feeling some empathy for her.

In less than 2 years time, she has gotten married, gotten immediately pregnant.  Then she lived away from her family, which given how dysfunctional the family is,  was hard.  We could see how she seemed to need a sibling with her a lot  when they were just living a short distance away.  She goes through a really hard labor, then c/s and some sort of postpartum complication possibly.  Then she has to go through all the molestation ordeal again, and is made into a Josh Surrogate by her horrible parents to go on national TV and proclaim that being molested by her own brother and knowing her parents failed to protect her and her siblings was no big deal.  Who knows what kind of emotional turmoil that opened up.  Then in this vulnerable time, with a brand new baby, her utterly clueless and insensitive husband drags her off to CA.  He undergoes some sort of oral surgery that completely changed his looks, and seems to have hurt his health at least for a while.    She is left alone a lot while he is out proselytizing, and she doesn't seem to quickly take to the culture or the language.    Being alone for hours on end must be really so odd for a Duggar.  When are they ever allowed to be alone?  They are taught that being alone is dangerous and makes them vulnerable to the devil and evil temptations.     Then Josh has scandal number 2 hit the public and even though she is away during this time,  she no doubt felt additional stress from that.    The undercurrent of being molested, having her most private life, sold out by her parents year after year, has to have impacted her.   And Derick, who initally seemed like a  chill guy who wanted to change the world for the better turns out to be more than happy to ignore his wife's fragility, and take on shady  management of their "ministry" opening them up to loads of criticism for their  fake mission and grifting.   

 

Jessa had some similar stresses except that she never had to leave the family.  Her home is near the compound and we know she is there much of the time.  She has help whenever she wants it with the baby, and her husband, is probably easier for Jessa to influence to her advantage.  Jessa doesn't seem to need to be liked as much as Jill did, and so she wraps herself up in her smug and narrow world thinking she has shit figured out.   But if she were dumped into a different environment, where people weren't wowed by her looks and impressed with her supposed "godliness",  she would struggle a lot.  The only reason she hasn't as much, at least outwardly is because she is barely living independently.  Their lives are very much annexed to the main family.

[2manyKidzzz]

To me Derick is a religious zealot. Putting his family's life in danger,or at least really scaring Jill to save people who already have a religion is just.......

[Fun Undies]

3 hours ago, purple_summer said:

Ok I hate to even ask this but is "keeping the marriage bed undefiled" not a thing in "mainstream" Christian circles? I never thought it was more extreme on the theology scale but my perception is likely skewed. 

The only time I remember hearing it, is in Southern Baptist circles, in the countrysides of South Carolina (this isn't meant as a generalization observation of "all country folk in South Carolina"), just sharing my own personal experience, from having lived there for like nine years.  The most common (though definitely not the "norm") thing I ran across was hard workers, and very religious.  SOME (but not all), were very evangelical in their need to feel validated by those around them - which they took as, "Agree with me, or I'm going to tell you that you're burning in Hell."

I was told I'm burning in Hell at least a handful of times - between being raised Catholic (specifically their issue seemed to be, me holding Holy Virgin Mary in any sort of esteem, equal to Jesus, which they deemed blasphemous), and then moving in with my fiance at 19 (and having ebil sex) <--- I was literally told that "You know God doesn't like that", and I swear he added a "defiling the marriage bed" towards the end there, but to be honest, I started tuning the guy out after the first part, so I can't be sure! 

Otherwise, I mostly heard in the abstinence circles among classmates, and friends in my middle and high school.  And I assume they heard it from their own churches (I know a few who mentioned their youth pastors, specifically using this wording - I'm assuming during "spiritual counseling").  I was actually confirmed in a Methodist church, and no one ever used the term there *shrugs*

[Buzzard]

I havent been able to find the ratings for tuesday.  It doesnt look like tvbythenumbers posted for tuesday.  Has anyone else found them?

[nst]

1 hour ago, actuallyjessica said:

It spoke volumes to me when Scott said "so glad to have you back"... Jill and Derrick were crickets.

well then they want to be paid so to them it's like um were here

nothing but a job 

48 minutes ago, Buzzard said:

I'm still wondering what they were doing in TN.  It was just very weird that all of them plus the film crew would go there to film this little space filler rather than doing a sit down at the TTH or the "guest house."    We know that it was actually their crew because Mr. Jim was there.

Was there a speaking engagement that we arent aware of?  Why fly jeremy in for a 5 minute appearance?  They could have done that via skype like they did with Jill.

and for you I looked it up - it takes 5 hours to drive there....

so why would they drive 5 hours to film when they easily could have filmed in the TTH 

Why not fly Jeremy at TLC's dime...this is how they role. 

 

[MoonFace]

3 hours ago, QuiverDance said:

I cannot imagine going from my first kiss to having full blown penetrative sex on the same day.  That sounds so awful and traumatic.  I hope that Jeremy has enough experience that he can ease Jinger into things lovingly.  I know these girls probably want to get down and dirty, but maybe not all in the span of a few hours. 

I caught the tail end of the Gypsy wedding show that was on TLC.    The Gypsy bride didn't let her new husband kiss her on the lips at the wedding or reception.    (She'd only met him a few times before marriage)  As they went off in the car the mother was saying that there had better not be anything more than kissing that first night.  

Maybe the Duggar girls and other fundies do start out slowly with some heavy petting and such before full penetration?   Otherwise, it would almost like a rape .   They guys must be told (probably by JimBoob) that these girls need time to get to know their husbands so take it easy.    

 

[calimojo]

maybe, but I think they pretty much just jump right in. 

Jill at least seemed to as it took her about a minute to get pregnant

 

And remember that picture of Jessa and Ben?  I think they went for it right away too. 

For me, it isn't the sex right away as just other elements of intimacy you get from dating someone for a long time.  Things like negotiating the bathroom stuff.  Managing grooming and bathing.  Farting, burping, snoring, etc.  I mean, a lot of living with someone is figuring out how not to be grossed out and annoyed by the less than romantic functions of the human body. 

 

These women are entering a marriage where their partner has probably never seen them not perfectly made up and groomed all the time.  And vice versa.  And while the Duggar girls have enough brothers to probably understand the grossness that men can bring to the equation,  it still just feels so odd to go from not even being allowed to have a private, alone conversation with someone to suddenly being alone with them, naked, having sex, sharing a bathroom, etc. 

 

i am not saying everyone should live together before marrying, or that everyone should have sex before getting married, but most people have at least spent some time alone with their beloved.

[Buzzard]

20 minutes ago, calimojo said:

i am not saying everyone should live together before marrying, or that everyone should have sex before getting married, but most people have at least spent some time alone with their beloved.

I truly believe that every engaged couple needs to nurse their significant other through an illness.  If you can still love me through the flu, hacking my guts out at 3am and puking... then all is well. 

[Toothfairy]

On Thursday, October 27, 2016 at 0:16 PM, allthegoodnamesrgone said:

This is a very legitimate concern for the Jgirls, they've been told their whole lives that sex is evil sex is bad, it is disgusting, dirty and will send you to hell, up until there is a 2nd ring on your finger. Then you must spread your legs and take it  when ever your strange owner demands it.  Not only do they go into a task they no nothing about and one that that is the utmost intimate act 2 peole can do, they are forced into do it with a relative stranger. 

This is what's wrong with the purity movement. Making girls feel bad about sex and their bodies. Then on wedding day. Bam. Expected to perform. 

[calimojo]

6 minutes ago, Toothfairy said:

This is what's wrong with the purity movement. Making girls feel bad about sex and their bodies. Then on wedding day. Bam. Expected to perform. 

And for the Duggar girls, not only what you said, but they have to live it all on TV.  They have to smile and share their honeymoons with the world.  They have to give coy little talking head interviews about how wonderful the wedding night was and marriage is perfect, etc. And they get to endure endless "is she pregnant yet" comments, etc.  Yes,  They are adults, but remember,  they didn't buy the ticket to this ride that they are on.  Daddy pimp JB did.  And he strapped them into the ride vehicle by hindering their education, teaching them that leaving the ride means falling into the abyss of sin and depravity,  minimizing their options and marrying them off to weak men that he can control. 

Maybe Jeremy will be different, but it feels unlikely.  He sought them out.  He came to them AFTER all the scandal and information about how fucked up their beliefs are.  At least with Derick and Ben, you could argue that they were just really gullible and bought the perfect christian family image, but Jeremy came to them when the veil had been lifted.  So what does that say about him?

He could perhaps be a really great guy who feels compassion for a young woman victimized by her brother and ignored by her parents, and he might have felt compelled to help out this poor soul.  Or he might have said,  "Well, they are a trainwreck, but at least they are a trainwreck that will get my 15 minutes or more of fame, and the girl is pretty enough and malleable enough that I can have my cake and eat it too.

So which version of Jeremy do we think showed up? 

[Toothfairy]

1 hour ago, MoonFace said:

I caught the tail end of the Gypsy wedding show that was on TLC.    The Gypsy bride didn't let her new husband kiss her on the lips at the wedding or reception.    (She'd only met him a few times before marriage)  As they went off in the car the mother was saying that there had better not be anything more than kissing that first night.  

Maybe the Duggar girls and other fundies do start out slowly with some heavy petting and such before full penetration?   Otherwise, it would almost like a rape .   They guys must be told (probably by JimBoob) that these girls need time to get to know their husbands so take it easy.    

 

I feel bad for any fundie wife (Pearls anyone) to have fucked up sex the first time. Meaning it's rough and all about him. He doesn't make it about her at all. Only about him. 

[Toothfairy]

19 hours ago, Carm_88 said:

I think that they will want to drag out the wedding as long as they can. They may not be able to keep all details from escaping but they will want the season to be based around Jinger's wedding and Jessa's pregnancy. So I think...it will be next season. 

Jessa Blessa is pregnant. If Anna, Jill, and Jinger get pregnant too they'll be on people mag again

[purple_summer]

7 hours ago, December said:

I never once heard it at any of the numerous mainline Protestant churches I attended growing up. The closest they even came was saying something along the lines of "sex is a beautiful thing... when you're married." 

I'm still haunted by the Michelle Duggar Say Yes to the Dress crossover! 

 

6 hours ago, Carm_88 said:

 

Honestly, I don't know much about the whole Protestant thing but I'm Catholic and even the most extreme priest hasn't mentioned that. I mean I'm sure they they might have but not in my remembrance.

 

 

6 hours ago, wotdancer said:

I don't know how "mainstream" my admittedly fundie-lite experience was, but that's definitely a phrase I remember. I swear it is going to take years more of work to straighten out the mental mess that "sex is evil and you will get pregnant and you will go to hell" -turned to- "married sex is the best thing ever and should be enjoyed (but of course only with your spouse/no porn/no masturbation/etc)" did to my brain.

 

3 hours ago, Fun Undies said:

The only time I remember hearing it, is in Southern Baptist circles, in the countrysides of South Carolina (this isn't meant as a generalization observation of "all country folk in South Carolina"), just sharing my own personal experience, from having lived there for like nine years.  The most common (though definitely not the "norm") thing I ran across was hard workers, and very religious.  SOME (but not all), were very evangelical in their need to feel validated by those around them - which they took as, "Agree with me, or I'm going to tell you that you're burning in Hell."

I was told I'm burning in Hell at least a handful of times - between being raised Catholic (specifically their issue seemed to be, me holding Holy Virgin Mary in any sort of esteem, equal to Jesus, which they deemed blasphemous), and then moving in with my fiance at 19 (and having ebil sex) <--- I was literally told that "You know God doesn't like that", and I swear he added a "defiling the marriage bed" towards the end there, but to be honest, I started tuning the guy out after the first part, so I can't be sure! 

Otherwise, I mostly heard in the abstinence circles among classmates, and friends in my middle and high school.  And I assume they heard it from their own churches (I know a few who mentioned their youth pastors, specifically using this wording - I'm assuming during "spiritual counseling").  I was actually confirmed in a Methodist church, and no one ever used the term there *shrugs*

Welp. Thanks for answering. I heard it often enough that I thought it was pretty common. 

 

On a related note, I also remember several (graphic) "how far is too far" conversations in church. We covered the gamut but there were a few notable highlights: 

• Oral sex is still sex
• Kissing is penetrating someone else's body therefore it's still sex 
• Married sex when you both love Jesus is the best sex 

Basically we talked about sex a LOT. It was weird. 

 

ETA: My cousin (I'd call her fundie-light) came back from her honeymoon and basically said "that was harder than I expected".  And this is coming from someone who went to a (Christian) school, not a sheltered homeschooler.

[Carm_88]

26 minutes ago, purple_summer said:

Welp. Thanks for answering. I heard it often enough that I thought it was pretty common. 

 

On a related note, I also remember several (graphic) "how far is too far" conversations in church. We covered the gamut but there were a few notable highlights: 

• Oral sex is still sex
• Kissing is penetrating someone else's body therefore it's still sex 
• Married sex when you both love Jesus is the best sex 

Basically we talked about sex a LOT. It was weird. 

 

ETA: My cousin (I'd call her fundie-light) came back from her honeymoon and basically said "that was harder than I expected".  And this is coming from someone who went to a (Christian) school, not a sheltered homeschooler.

Wow yikes! That seems extreme! Doesn't completely surprise me but it does seem way out there. 

[nst]

1 hour ago, calimojo said:

And for the Duggar girls, not only what you said, but they have to live it all on TV.  They have to smile and share their honeymoons with the world.  They have to give coy little talking head interviews about how wonderful the wedding night was and marriage is perfect, etc. And they get to endure endless "is she pregnant yet" comments, etc.  Yes,  They are adults, but remember,  they didn't buy the ticket to this ride that they are on.  Daddy pimp JB did.  And he strapped them into the ride vehicle by hindering their education, teaching them that leaving the ride means falling into the abyss of sin and depravity,  minimizing their options and marrying them off to weak men that he can control. 

Maybe Jeremy will be different, but it feels unlikely.  He sought them out.  He came to them AFTER all the scandal and information about how fucked up their beliefs are.  At least with Derick and Ben, you could argue that they were just really gullible and bought the perfect christian family image, but Jeremy came to them when the veil had been lifted.  So what does that say about him?

He could perhaps be a really great guy who feels compassion for a young woman victimized by her brother and ignored by her parents, and he might have felt compelled to help out this poor soul.  Or he might have said,  "Well, they are a trainwreck, but at least they are a trainwreck that will get my 15 minutes or more of fame, and the girl is pretty enough and malleable enough that I can have my cake and eat it too.

So which version of Jeremy do we think showed up? 

Jeremy might the worst of them what with the way Jinge looks at him in TH's.  It's all suggested.. already Just imagine what he will say after the fact in a TH - it will be cringe worthy to the 9th degree imo 

I think he is the bolded 100% - everything he says reeks of it 

that's the difference between Jessa and Jinge again - Jessa can hide it better. And yes I am referencing it. 

 

 

[Coconut Flan]

16 hours ago, eveandadam said:

As for the Bates girls: I liked Allysa's wedding gown the most because it was the most fitting and I think not altered.

Alyssa's dress was also altered but at least using material that was actually intended to be used for sleeves.

17 hours ago, alba said:

, so I think that leaves their other sister. Esther?

Or Rebekah.

17 hours ago, alba said:

, so I think that leaves their other sister. Esther?

Or Rebekah.

[CatchThatCow]

Watched the "after show". I knew it was a clip show but holy crap, this was boring. I don't really understand why Jill is still crying about a shower curtain rod. She needs to stay in Arkansas. And Derrick needs to stop dipping her every time they kiss. Please. Saddest moment was when producer asked Jana if she would decorate for her siblings as they left TTH and got their own places. Because she is not getting her own place unless she finds a man who will fill out a crazy questionnaire. I can't believe they are all cool with that. Jana did look lovely. I hope she gets to do something cool with the tattoo parlor. Please not a daycare! Oh well, really interesting stuff is going to happen, they promise. 

[VelociRapture]

6 hours ago, Buzzard said:

I truly believe that every engaged couple needs to nurse their significant other through an illness.  If you can still love me through the flu, hacking my guts out at 3am and puking... then all is well. 

I knew my husband was a keeper a few months into our relationship. He drove me to the ER late one night because I couldn't stop vomiting, held my hair as I was sick, and stayed with me until I was released around 4:00 in the morning - even though we had classes the next day. 

I skipped classes that day. He didn't. Then he came back to my room and took care of me. Total keeper. 

It does make me a bit sad that these young adults don't get the opportunity to experience that. Caring for someone when they need it is such a natural part of a loving relationship and can really help to build a solid foundation.

[holynotfundie]

I was thinking and related my situation somewhat to Jingers. I moved from decent sized town in Iowa to straight small town Iowa and I was SCARED. I didn't know the people, I didn't know the town dynamic and I didn't drive. Neither did my mother. So it felt like I was states away, even if I was only 15 minutes away and still visited every week for church. I felt isolated. For Jinger, sure she might have been all happy to have eleventy kids when she thought she would be around a support system; but now she's come to grips with it being gone. She's an 11 hour drive from her mom, her bestie, and 2 other sisters that have been pregnant. She won't even have Jeremy's family around her. Just the church and that will take some getting used to, especially having the role as a First Lady (fancy term for preachers wife). Pregnancy is nowhere near easy and is extra hard when you don't have a support system. She might've taken the time to think about not getting pregnant right away, at least until she's made some friends. 

 

And in response to the marriage bed being undefiled, I've heard it a lot since I've been in a Pentecostal church (I'm a Pastors DIL, BTW) so I've heard the talk. It's part of a scripture and IIRC it's the scripture where it talks about marriage being honorable in all, and the marriage bed undefiled. Basically no fornication, no adultery, and just save it till you get a license. It won't kill you to wait.