Vatican clarifies cremation rules

[47of74]

Shaken, not stirred?

nytimes.com/2016/10/26/world/europe/vatican-bans-scattering-of-human-ashes.html

Quote

VATICAN CITY — Ashes to ashes is fine, the Vatican says, as long as you don’t spread them around.

On Tuesday, the Vatican responded to what it called an “unstoppable increase” in cremation and issued guidelines barring the scattering of ashes “in the air, on land, at sea or in some other way.”

The Vatican decreed that the ashes of loved ones have no place in the home, and certainly not in jewelry. It urged that cremated remains be preserved in cemeteries or other approved sacred places.

The instructions, which reiterate the Roman Catholic Church’s preference for burial over cremation, are in line with previous teachings. But local bishops’ conferences had requested doctrinal clarification because cremation has become increasingly popular and because there were “no specific canonical norms” for preserving ashes, according to Cardinal Gerhard Ludwig Müller, the prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, which drafted the guidelines.

Nothing new here.  I knew about the rules for years since it's what I was planning on having done even before I went on that quick swim across the Thames to the Episcopal Church.

After one of my aunts died and was cremated last year my mom was kind of surprised last year when a deacon told her that the church said they were ok with cremation as long as the ashes were kept together and buried in a cemetery.  She never knew they changed the rules.  I was like, really?  If the church wasn't OK with cremation do you think they would have put in a whole bunch of columbarium niches at the local cemetery.

 

[Fundie Bunny]

Sometimes I wonder who apart from anyone inside the opus dei actually follows any of those shitty principles.

[ADoyle90815]

I think my  devout Irish Catholic grandparents will be the last people on my dad's side of the family to be buried, as the rest of us are in favor of cremation. I do have a great uncle who was Catholic as well, but when he died, he was cremated and the ashes buried, as that was what he wanted. As the rest of us aren't Catholic, not only are we in favor of cremation, but we have no problems with the ashes being scattered.

[AmazonGrace]

So why does God care where people put the ashes?

[Khan]

For the same reason that every sperm is sacred, @AmazonGrace. 

[Maggie Mae]

6 hours ago, AmazonGrace said:

So why does God care where people put the ashes?

IIRC, burial is preferred because of the belief in resurrection.  Funeral rites are also "a thing" that should be done to the body before cremation.  

I'm not sure if God decreed that ashes be kept together or if the pope wants to make it simpler for Jesus God to sort out the body parts later when he brings us back.  

[AmazonGrace]

Even if the body is buried whole Jesus will have to start all over again anyway as it decomposes and eventually there will be nothing left together and it rains and there is a flood and some of  the original molecules may be in a rat's body now and some of them end up in a tree  or bottom of the river and so on. 

 

[Cleopatra7]

The primary reason the Catholic Church, as well as the Eastern Orthodox Churches, traditionally disliked cremation is because of its non-Christian connotations. During antiquity, cremation was quite common among the Romans, as well as among Germanic tribes and ancient Celts. Early Christians believed in inhumation because they wanted the body intact for the resurrecti, as mentioned upthread. As Europe became Christian, cremation was regarded as "pagan" and fell out of practice. It was revived in the nineteenth centuey, both as a more "modern" and hygienic practice, but also as a way to rebel against established Christianity. This is the main reason the Catholic and Orthodox churches don't like cremation in my opinion. While the Orthodox Church in Greece has managed to prevent cremation from becoming legal there, despite public demand and a lack of space for traditional burials, the Catholic Church has had to come to terms with cremation in the West because it has become so mainstream. I guess these new norms are a way to try to make cremation seem as much like a traditional burial as possible, though I'm not sure why splitting up ashes is wrong, other than the fact that it is not "traditional." Some dead people do not have intact bodies for reasons that are no fault of their own (eg plane crashes, victims of violent crime, car accidents, bombings) and it would be hurtful to their families to suggest that this would affect their final destination in some way.

[IntrinsicallyDisordered]

14 minutes ago, AmazonGrace said:

Even if the body is buried whole Jesus will have to start all over again anyway as it decomposes and eventually there will be nothing left together and it rains and there is a flood and some of  the original molecules may be in a rat's body now and some of them end up in a tree  or bottom of the river and so on. 

 

Yeah, this teaching drives me nuts.  I notice now the no scattering is to avoid looking like a pagan or something, since they realize your point above.  I am/was Catholic and want to be cremated and had to promise my mother the ashes would be buried in consecrated ground.  But I doubt they'd want me at this point and if she dies first I want to do the thing where the ashes are combined with fertilizer to nourish a sapling.

I remember being confused as a kid about the body having to be "intact" for judgement day (someone was arguing against organ donation) and wondering if everyone who died in an explosion or lost a limb before death was out of luck.

[Four is Enough]

"Can God make a rock so big even HE can't move it?"

Theological masturbation right there. Kids have asked that sort of question since there were kids. I can't go to heaven because I lost my leg in the war and it won't be buried with me...

 

I believe the Church's teaching falls in line with the resurrection teachings, and the "respect" to be given to a body which had been consecrated to God through baptism and other sacraments. The fact that the Church teaches that people should not scatter the ashes, (No dumping them in the Haunted Mansion at Disney World!!) or make cremation jewelry out of them is another aspect of the respect.

Of course the body is going to decompose, things are going to degrade, melt away, fly away... but I believe it's the intent of the original burial that gives the support to the resurrection idea.

[AmazonGrace]

If it was about being as whole as possible for the resurrection, the Egyptians had the right idea I think... some of their mummies are remarkably well preserved after thousands of years.

Or the ancient Europeans  who threw bodies in a swamp.

 

[Four is Enough]

Some of those bog people are remarkably well preserved. Same for some of the sand pit burials in Egypt. They weren't even embalmed. They just got dried. 

[VelociRapture]

This actually got me thinking a bit about what I want when I pass. I told my husband that I want to be cremated. What happens to my ashes doesn't concern me much. Personally, the thought of my body being buried creeps me out big time - one of my fears is being buried alive. Although, I guess being burned alive is pretty terrifying too. 

I also told him I don't care about whether there's a religious ceremony or not. I feel like that stuff is more for the loved ones left behind and can help them cope. If I die in childbirth or if I die before my husband, then he knows to talk with my family and come up with something that helps all of them grieve.

[Fascinated]

I know it's a bit of a morbid topic and one we don't like to think about. I'm about to make it worse. When our two-day-old baby died, we were young and hadn't considered this outcome. Perhaps others who have lost someone will understand what I mean when I tell you that those couple of days after he died were horrific. I pictured him lying...somewhere. In the morgue. It was excruciating.  We decided to have him cremated and at least after that I knew his little body wasn't just, you know, somewhere. Had we buried him I would have nightmares still.  His ashes are ensconced in a tiny box in a lovely wall, built for the purpose.

When my mum died in March, we opted for cremation, as that was also her desire. My dad has her ashes in a beautiful box (that looks nothing like a traditional urn).  After my dad dies, my brothers and I will take both of their ashes back to England and scatter them together on Dartmoor. There is usually a strong wind there, and away they will go, together again.  

[Cleopatra7]

19 minutes ago, VelociRapture said:

This actually got me thinking a bit about what I want when I pass. I told my husband that I want to be cremated. What happens to my ashes doesn't concern me much. Personally, the thought of my body being buried creeps me out big time - one of my fears is being buried alive. Although, I guess being burned alive is pretty terrifying too. 

I also told him I don't care about whether there's a religious ceremony or not. I feel like that stuff is more for the loved ones left behind and can help them cope. If I die in childbirth or if I die before my husband, then he knows to talk with my family and come up with something that helps all of them grieve.

I have that same fear of being buried alive and being underground, which is why I too want to be cremated (the environmental aspects of traditional burial are also a concern). I know it's silly to project one's fears about being underground to a dead body, which can't feel anything, but "after death concerns" are very important to the living, whether it's your body or that of a loved one.

I also want to correct something I said upthread. It is now legal to be cremated in Greece, even though the Greek Orthodox Church disapproves of the practice:

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/02/world/europe/new-greek-law-permits-cremation.html?_r=0

Part of the problem in Greece is that there is no room for traditional burials, not surprising given that it has been continuously inhabited for thousands of years. This article describes the traumatizing process of moving and dissolving bodies from rented plots that caused many Greeks to demand the legalization of cremation:

Quote

There are no crematoria in Greece, so grave space has to be recycled. Authorities rent out plots, and a typical lease lasts three years.

When that period has passed, families are recalled to the graveside to witness the removal of the body from the ground. Although grave rental is not entirely uncommon in Europe, Greece's approach is unique.

Relatives can pay to place the bones in a communal storage area known as an ossuary. Others choose to take them to a regional cemetery for reburial, as there is often more space.

If no family member is present at the exhumation, the bones are dug up, dissolved in chemicals and the remnants placed in a common burial plot.

Mr Vlassis sent a representative to oversee the process for him. What unfolded was an experience familiar to many Greeks.

"The body had not dissolved. Can you imagine? It was very upsetting," he said.

"So they said they were going to bury him again in a light layer of earth. When I went back months later the body had decomposed.

"They then put the bones into a plastic box. My own father, in a box."

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-32165261

[VelociRapture]

20 minutes ago, Fascinated said:

I know it's a bit of a morbid topic and one we don't like to think about. I'm about to make it worse. When our two-day-old baby died, we were young and hadn't considered this outcome. Perhaps others who have lost someone will understand what I mean when I tell you that those couple of days after he died were horrific. I pictured him lying...somewhere. In the morgue. It was excruciating.  We decided to have him cremated and at least after that I knew his little body wasn't just, you know, somewhere. Had we buried him I would have nightmares still.  His ashes are ensconced in a tiny box in a lovely wall, built for the purpose.

When my mum died in March, we opted for cremation, as that was also her desire. My dad has her ashes in a beautiful box (that looks nothing like a traditional urn).  After my dad dies, my brothers and I will take both of their ashes back to England and scatter them together on Dartmoor. There is usually a strong wind there, and away they will go, together again.  

I'm so sorry for your loss!  

[Coconut Flan]

Catholic church or no Catholic church, my stepdad's ashes are still double wrapped and in the container they were shipped in and in the bottom of my closet.  My mom thinks the cremains are still at the mortuary in Arkansas.  We seem to have come to a general family agreement that they'll stay in the closet until she's cremated and then we'll decide what to do with both of them. 

 

[Cartmann99]

My father wanted to be cremated and buried as close as possible to his favorite fishing hole, so I complied with his wishes. My mother wanted to be cremated and then buried at the foot of her mother's grave, so the local relatives arranged that for her.

When I went back to see mother's stone that had been installed at the cemetery, one of my relatives and I got into a discussion about what we wanted for ourselves. We made the other relatives uncomfortable as neither of us wanted anything expensive and we both were considering the idea of donating our bodies to science. I didn't mean to make them uncomfortable, I just don't want a big fancy production when I die. If others want that for themselves, that's fine, but it's just not me.

[Childless]

My FIL wants to be cremated and have his ashes scattered.  He's also Catholic.  My husband called him the other day when this news came out to ask him what he wanted to do.  After he got off the phone, I said "Let me guess, your Dad said the Catholic Church could kiss his ass.". The answer was yes.  LOL.  I know my FIL pretty well.  He doesn't take kindly to people telling him how he should live his life.  Good for him!

[VooDooChild]

My daughter and I both want to be cremated and buried in bio-urns.  We want to be trees!  My daughter for environmental reasons -- she's a greenie.  Me because I will NOT be locked in box and buried underground.  Ew.  But I like the green aspect, too.  She never came out and said it but I have a feeling my mom was cremated because she was claustrophobic.  

Can't the church just respect someone's autonomy?  Must they have their hands in everything?

[bingbangboom]

I love the tree idea! We have planted things in memory of loved ones before, and it helped me grieve. The boomkids may want to do something else when I'm gone, and that's fine too. Whatever my loved ones need, so long as there is an open bar.

 

[Grimalkin]

I think it can have something to do with how the Church views the sanctity of life. All humans are valued and important and remains should be treated with dignity and respect. 

       I have heard some teachings on valuing human life and the dignity of all people (abortion was never mentioned) it was actually very touching and meaningful to me.

      

[paganbaby]

I'm sure my mother will take this directive in the same spirit as she does the Church's rules about gay marriage, contraception, and divorce. In other words, the box with some of my father's ashes is going to stay right where it is at her bedside, although the bulk of them were interred next to my brother over a decade ago.

[Loveday]

My brother's ashes are  sitting on a  bookshelf in my den for the moment. When my mother passes, she wants to be cremated as well, and I'll take both her and my brother to her hometown where there's still room in the plot my grandfather purchased years ago. 

If the Church (I'm Catholic, the rest of my family isn't) doesn't like my brother being on my bookshelf, that's too bad. I find a bookcase to be a pretty sacred space, so I feel like I've complied with the rules even if the Pope doesn't think so.

[WhiteRun]

My great aunt (a devout catholic her whole life) was cremated without any of her family or friends knowing. Apparently it was a wish of hers that no one knew about. 
My mum has made it very clear that she wants to be cremated when she dies.
I want to be buried in a bio-urn, somewhere in a forest. The idea of bringing new life to a plant sounds so cool and I love the positive environmental action, even in death.