Questions for a future son-in-law

[apandaaries]

Just LOVE his blog.  Here's something about how men have the right to do what they want with their bodies, and if that includes beating their wives, well, so be it! http://reaganramm.com/men-should-be-allowed-to-beat-their-wives/

Here's a charming quote (bolding mine): 

Quote

We can’t tell a man what to do with his fists. The government is not a glove, so the government should stay off of men’s hands.

–

Sometimes, men just need to be able to beat their wives. Maybe his wife turned out to be much different than he expected when marrying her, and she is ruining his plans and his life with her demands. He should have the right to put her in her place with a good beating. Or, perhaps he decides he isn’t ready for a wife at this point in his life, and so he should be able to beat her to the point where she no longer wants to be around him. Or, maybe a man reluctantly has to face the reality that he doesn’t really love his wife like he used to, and therefore, it would be unloving to the wife to not beat her and drive her away. No wife should have to be in a marriage where she is unwanted.

–

Now, some will say, “Why can’t a man just have a divorce?”

–

Such a statement is very insensitive to a man’s emotions, and inconsiderate of the situation and circumstances he may be facing. Divorce can be a very expensive, long, and emotionally painful process. Plus, the thought of his wife marrying another man can be very emotionally traumatizing, and a situation he’d rather not endure. There is certainly nothing wrong with a man going through divorce, but no man should be forced to go through such a process. To go through divorce or not to go through divorce is the man’s decision to make.

<snip>

Men should stand up for their rights, and proudly proclaim, “My body, my choice!”

–

All of that said, I am open to the possibility that there could be some exceptions, and perhaps some times when a man should not be allowed to beat his wife. For example, beating her right after the wedding would really be in bad taste, and would seriously cramp the romantic atmosphere. Additionally, a man beating his wife in front of other people would also be bad form, as that’s just not pleasant to see. However, while in the privacy of their own home, a man is certainly well within his rights to beat his wife.

– 

I know this is hard for some to accept, especially for those with religious beliefs that are against wives being beaten, but you cannot force your religion on others. We are living in modern times. This is the year 2016, and it’s time to move on from the barbaric cultural norms that have prevented men from having control over what to do with their own bodies. Anyone who is against men deciding what to do with their own bodies, and men beating their wives, is a man-hater, and is guilty of misandry.

 –

Some may think my position extreme, but I would argue my view is quite mild and reasonable.

If a woman has the right to kill her own unborn child at her discretion because she has a right to decide what happens with her own body, then I think it quite reasonable to say that men should have the right to decide how to operate their own bodies as well.

If a woman can chant, “Keep your politics out of my womb!” Then a man can surely shout, “Keep your politics off of my hands”. Indeed, allowing men to beat their wives is much less violent, as no limbs are being torn off, and no one’s life is being extinguished as is the case with Abortion. Mere blunt force trauma is all I’m talking about here; some broken bones or unconsciousness at the very worst.

–

If you are an advocate of equality, and the rights of women to have abortions, then don’t be inconsistent by opposing the right of men to beat their wives.

Fuck this man gently with a chainsaw (Heathers reference, not a call for actual violence, as he clearly and forcefully advocates for above).

So glad he was thoroughly vetted by the parents.  You'd hate to have a man who'd beat your daughter for a STUPID reason.  

[Anonymousguest]

7 minutes ago, amandaaries said:

Just LOVE his blog.  Here's something about how men have the right to do what they want with their bodies, and if that includes beating their wives, well, so be it! http://reaganramm.com/men-should-be-allowed-to-beat-their-wives/

Here's a charming quote (bolding mine): 

Fuck this man gently with a chainsaw (Heathers reference, not a call for actual violence, as he clearly and forcefully advocates for above).

So glad he was thoroughly vetted by the parents.  You'd hate to have a man who'd beat your daughter for a STUPID reason.  

I'm 99.9% certain he's using hyperbole and satire to make a point. But I'll go read from the link to see more completely what he's saying. 

 

Eta, yes, it's tagged as satire and abortion. 

[Lurky]

@amandaaries I'm pretty sure that's meant to be a super-clever analogy for Pro-Choice/anti-forced-birth arguments over women's rights to abortion.  I'm sure we've talked about it before in a previous Cheryl thread, but I can't find it, though am giggling at the general comments that have come up, every time FJ has talked about Regan Ramm:

http://www.freejinger.org/search/?type=all&q=reagan+ramm

 

 

[apandaaries]

Yeah, somehow I'm just not digging his satire or his comparisons, but I suppose I'm really not his target audience.  His work reads to me like a 16 year old who's been told he's quite clever, and reaching for something shocking.  He has other posts where he complains about the "selfishness" of today's marriages, based on what other people foolishly imagine is love.  HIS understanding of love is far superior.  

Then again, I probably shouldn't be surprised at what someone named "Reagan Ramm" is posting; the name alone should warn me.

[Lurky]

@amandaaries Yeah, it's definitely his writing, not your reading, that's the issue.

I'd actually forgotten all his awfulness til I had that search of his name.  He's chock-full of the hate - eg:

But what I found interesting is there are threads from 2014 talking about Haley commenting on his blog, him guest-posting on Cheryl's blog and so on, so the whole "this was an incredible surprise!" line from Cheryl is just bizarre

ETA: The link changed since FJ talked about it, but the piece is here:

http://reaganramm.com/this-pastor-hates-his-children/

and damn, he thinks he's the clever one, doesn't he?

http://reaganramm.com/gays-do-have-a-right-to-get-married/

Quote

Gays actually do have the right to get married in America. Marriage is the union of one man and one woman for life. Sure, homosexuals aren’t able to marry someone of the same sex, but neither am I. No one is. We are all treated equally under the law. Therefore, we are all equal already.

 

 

[apandaaries]

25 minutes ago, Lurky said:

 

ETA: The link changed since FJ talked about it, but the piece is here:

http://reaganramm.com/this-pastor-hates-his-children/

and damn, he thinks he's the clever one, doesn't he?

http://reaganramm.com/gays-do-have-a-right-to-get-married/

 

 

Clearly a deep thinker here!  I like how he links no fault divorce to rising crime rates over the last 40 years -- which is cool, except that crime rates have fallen over that time period.  He reminds me of Doug Wilson -- excessively verbose, playing with (but not using) logic, supremely confident of his superior understanding of the world around him.  These are the kind of fundie men who are frightening dictators in training.  Bleh. 

[nokidsmom]

4 hours ago, Marian the Librarian said:

This reminds me of the "marriage investigation process" undertaken by Ben and Audri Botkin, and bloviated upon at great and solemn length by Geoff on their Western Conservatory website. Because God forbid there should be so much as one scintilla of spontaneity or fun, or independent thought on the part of the young'uns,  when it comes to all things connubial.

Take it from one who knows: meddling parents/in-laws who can't back the hell off and mind their own damn business are the kiss of death for a marriage.

It boggles my mind this whole "marriage investigation process" that parents undertake for their adult kids!  The really sad part is that the kids have no idea that they have the right to say "hell no" that their parents don't have any real authority over them anymore, it's all in their heads.  Which they clearly have been manipulated for many years to believe.

Not to get OT, but I had serious issues with my parents when I got married.  In a nutshell, they didn't want to let go of their little girl never mind I was 23, college educated and ready to get on with life.  I would not, absolutely would not let Mr. No go to my Dad to "ask for my hand" as my mother asked because I knew clearly how they felt.  Mr. No was not going to get subjected to questions some of which were on the list above.  I had to do some serious pushback because I knew damn well, that if I allowed it, they would be running the show and that would have not boded well at all.    They have done same with my sisters who did allow it and I am surprised that my BILs are still in the picture.

Back to regularly scheduled programming....... 

 

[nickelodeon]

Can't believe how condescending this dude is about gay marriage when his relationship is the union of one man, the parents of one oblivious woman, and a 5,000 question standardized test about how frequently he whacks off. Loooooooooooser.

[Jasmar]

Quote

They may “marry” for “love”

All things considered, I think I'd rather "marry" for "love" than via parental questionnaire.

[Koala]

1 hour ago, nickelodeon said:

Can't believe how condescending this dude is about gay marriage when his relationship is the union of one man, the parents of one oblivious woman, and a 5,000 question standardized test about how frequently he whacks off. Loooooooooooser.

I think it's safe to say you win the internet for the day. 

Seriously though, what the hell qualifies all of these single fundies to give out marriage advice?  I am pretty sure I've been married nearly as long as he's been alive.  

Pipe down junior.  If we need any advice, we'll let you know ask someone who has a clue.

[HomeschooledHeartThrob]

On 10/25/2016 at 4:11 PM, Koala said:

As predicted, Cheryl's daughters are being married off in short order (money's an issue, you know).  

The latest daughter didn't even court the man she's marrying.  They're so proud.  

I've heard that the best relationships are the ones where the couples just cut out all of that boring "getting to know you" shit and skip straight to marriage and children.

Anyway, Haley may not know her soon to be husband well, but Cheryl and Terry sent him a helpful application so THEY could get to know him.  Of course they didn't want to borrow Haley's silly little woman brain, when Terry (the cheating, dog killing husband) could lend his instead.

An electronic application to marry their daughter.  How convenient.  

Here are some of the questions:

What are your views on child training, including corporal punishment?

When does corporal discipline begin?

What are your views on public swimming?

What bothers you in the area of modesty?

What is your definition of biblical modesty?

Are pants ever acceptable?

What do you think about name brand clothing and emblems?

Do you plan to regulate your children’s clothing?

How will you approach your wife or daughters if they are immodest?

When was the last time you viewed pornography?

Do you have a habit of masturbation?

I swear, I can't even.  Lord.have.mercy.  What the fuck is wrong with these people???

http://www.thelongwaytogo.com/i-want-to-marry-your-daughter-what-happened-next/

I could cry. Where is the "Will you be kind to our daughter?" "Will you love her?" "If she is sick and can't cook/clean will you help her?" "If she cries will you hold her?"

Pants. They care about pants and beating babies. How can people read a Bible and walk away with this list? Where is the "love your wives?" Can you imagine your son marrying a girl like this? I think I'd adopt her even if they broke up. This triggers something deep inside me. 

[Koala]

FFS

Quote

Reagan was able to question us about Haley as well. And “coincidentally” during that time, I did a “marriage” study with my daughters, sending them each a list of questions on various topics to answer weekly, which we later discussed as a group (with so many young women in my home, I am privileged to have my own Bible study group!  ). I would then in turn send the answers to her questions to Reagan. He even had some input in those questions. I plan to make those questions available as an eBook here soon.

You know what, this is just stupid.  

Cheryl?  If your daughter is an adult, ready for marriage, bills, and probably a houseful of children, then she's too old for you to be playing these silly, childish games with her life.

Quite frankly, it's making all of you look nuts.

[Lurky]

@Koala The thing that is ridiculous about this whole story is the way Cheryl tried to be so secret about this, and do things like that questionnaire "subtly" (& finding out her ring size etc etc), when Haley says in her video that she knew exactly what was going on.

But the hoops they jumped through, all these complicated plots and schemes, when the obvious thing to do is (gasp!) let them get to know each other without mediation!  It sounds pretty exhausting, but also sounds like Cheryl really relished the drama, the tiptoe-ing around, and being centre of attention....

[ophelia]

On 25.10.2016 at 11:31 PM, Black Aliss said:

Whoa!!! Didn't see that coming!

(Where's that sarcasm font when you need it?)

I am trying to understand how this differs from, say, a Pashtun arranged marriage.

BECAUSE IT HAS JEEEEEBUS IN IT!!!11!!1eleventy!! That makes it superior to all those heathens around the world, who are doing the exact same thing.

21 hours ago, turquoise said:

A questionnaire like that from parents is almost guaranteed to scare off any reasonable man and attract someone who is batshit crazy. I hope I am wrong and things turn out okay for Haley.

I think the Mortons use a questionnaire or positions papers for their daughters. And in the light of the recent developments we can see how that worked out in their favor. Not.

17 hours ago, fundiefan said:

And I have to ask, why is it every fundie family on the freaking planet becomes a 'musical group' with zero training? Captn Bret and his awful voice & kids are a 'music ministry', the Duggars, Maxwells, Rodrigueses, Wissmans, the Bayleats...(Seppi friends)...Bontrangers...and  now the Long Family Singers.

I mostly agree with you, although I have to say that the Wissmans and Bontraegers are quite okay and that makes them FAR better than the Duggars and Bateseseses and Maxwells.

[AmazonGrace]

 I have a much shorter and far more efficient  questionnaire: 

 

1. Are you willing to marry our daughter on the basis of an inlaw questionnaire without giving her the chance to learn to know you and vice versa?

 

If you checked YES, thanks for stopping by, good luck, have a nice lonely life.

 

 

[Lurky]

What I really don't get is the lack of personalisation about the questions.  Here's their "Why Our Daughter?" section:
 

Quote

 

Why do you believe our daughter is the one for you?

Are there any verses that helped you confirm the decision?

How long have you been praying about this?

What counselors did you ask about it?

Were there any hesitations? If so, what were they?

What makes you think the two of you are compatible?

Does your father  or mother have any cautions regarding our daughter or your potential marriage to her?

What do you feel is God’s will for your lives together?

How do you see God using the two of you as a couple?

 

These are so generic, and it's interesting that it's all about "our daughter", and not Haley, as a person.  I don't know much about her at all, but I know she's been struggling with Lyme's Disease, and wants to be a writer, and really enjoyed volunteering on the writing site - and that they had "doctrinal differences" etc etc, and there are so many questions just from that. 

If I was in Cheryl's position (maybe our minds had been swapped in some scifi way?) I'd be asking about how he'd help her with her illness, and what would happen if she was too ill to be the traditional, submissive wife he says he want.  If they had kids, would he change nappies and bath and dress them, if she was ill?  What about if she was having a writing deadline, or inspired at that moment?  What if her illness prevented her from getting pregnant?

And then the writing - would he support her writing, and her volunteer work? 

Those are just ones that hit the very top of my head, and if I had to write a set of Qs for my brother- or sister-in-law, for example, or a partner for my best friend, I can imagine it could go on for pages, BUT it would be personal about them, and definitely not have all the "and how would you relate to ME?" stuff in it.

[childerowland]

23 hours ago, Lurky said:

I am still boggling at the Longs' assumption that he was answering truly, rather than giving the "right" answers...  Cheryl answers that here, but it seems like she didn't even listen to the Reagan-Haley video.  

 

23 hours ago, Lurky said:

But in the video, they talk about how they started off talking in private messages on the writing site, even though he knew she wasn't allowed to talk to men privately, and as someone who was helping run the site, he wasn't allowed to have that kind of relationship with the young people on the site.  They both said that this is why they stopped interacting the first time - and Patriarch Long knew that, as he banned Haley from talking to him!

And I laughed out loud at this:

The logic is that in some things, he disagreed and explained why, so that must mean that when he didn't disagree, he was telling the truth.  I don't understand that logic at all!

I completely agree! The situation reminds me a bit of the Autumn saga, in the way in which the parents are proudly following a super-fundie courtship formula and insisting that yes, they now know the young man inside out, he's like family etc. - just because he's managed to make the right noises so far during their extremely limited contact with him. Hopefully Reagan won't turn out to be like Autumn's abusive ex-husband, but it's incredibly naive of Haley's parents to assume that he 'must' be telling the truth in that questionnaire.

You can only really KNOW a person when you've seen them in a variety of different contexts - with friends, with family, ALONE, outdoors, indoors, with strangers...A key problem with all these fundie courtships/betrothals etc., in addition to their rapidity, is that the couple aren't allowed to be alone together. I soon found that my first serious love interest behaved very differently when in public and when alone with me. If I'd married him on the basis of how he behaved in public I would've been in for a shock. He was very gregarious and sociable and friendly in public and often morose in private.

Oh, and from his blog, Reagan reminds me of Chris, Ashley Easter (nee Schnarr)'s ex. Verbose. Insistent on being right all the time. Know-it-all.

[Lurky]

@childerowland Wow, that blog about Autumn was horrifying.  But even moreso, the fact that it was all his fault for lying, not their fault for doing this stupid process that failed their daughter so badly.

(Of course I blame the abuser for his abuse, but these processes almost seemed designed to deliver sheltered young women into the hands of abusers, and that's never going to be OK)

[Lurky]

PS Autumn was married and divorced before she was 16*???  For other FJers like me, unfamiliar with her, a thread.  It's got some really awful details in it, BUT at least  I have to credit her parents 100% for believing her and helping her out of the marriage, while her church elders were responding "be more submissive" to avoid the abuse

BUT! It's a shame it took such awful things happening to their teenaged child, and they let her get into that situation in the first place.  I'm possibly too angry to type.

Seems like these days she's in college (and doing really well!) with a part-time job , anti-Trump, anti-racism etc etc, from her twitter, at least.  Hope the ret of her life is absolutely everything she wants it to be.

* ETA She was engaged at fifteen???

[Lurky]

PPS from the Yuku thread, the Qs that Autumn's parents asked the 20 year old who wanted to marry their 15 year old daughter

Quote

♥ What does courtship mean to you?
♥ What are your intentions toward my daughter?
♥ Tell me about your family.
♥ Describe your parents' marriage to me.
♥ Tell me about your relationship with your father. And your mother?
♥ Have you talked to your parents about my daughter?
♥ Who are your male role models and why?
♥ Are you prepared to be able to support a wife and family?
♥ Tell me about your spiritual life. Do you read the Bible and pray regularly?
♥ Would you be comfortable praying with your wife, and leading her in a Bible study?
♥ How important is church membership to you?
♥ Do you take seriously the sacraments of the Lord's Supper and Infant Baptism?
♥ What is your position on women working outside the home?
♥ Do you want children?
♥ How do you feel about birth control?
♥ Do you think that children should be raised with Biblical discipline?
♥ What method of education do you intend to use with your children? Public school? Private school? Homeschool? Are you willing to support your wife in this area?
♥ What is your position on a woman's role in the home?
♥ What do you expect from your wife?
♥ What do you think a husband's position in the home is?
♥ Are you willing to love your wife as Christ loved the church, placing her needs ahead of your own?
♥ Tell me about my daughter. What do you like about her?
♥ What do you have to offer my daughter/ Do you feel that you would be a blessing to her?
♥ Tell me about your job.
♥ Where do you see yourself in 5 years? 10 years?
♥ What do you like to do in your free time?
♥ Are you careful about what you watch (ie. movies, television shows, etc), what you listen to, and what you read? Explain.
♥ Have you had any other relationships? If so, how did they end? What is your sexual history?

Oddly, it turned out that this kind of questioning wasn't a useful way of assessing his character...  And adding 5 pages, more, Long- and Duggar-style, wouldn't help either, because who knew? a paper-based Q&A isn't the way to find out a person's true character.
 

[Granwych]

10 hours ago, ophelia said:

BECAUSE IT HAS JEEEEEBUS IN IT!!!11!!1eleventy!! That makes it superior to all those heathens around the world, who are doing the exact same thing.

I think the Mortons use a questionnaire or positions papers for their daughters. And in the light of the recent developments we can see how that worked out in their favor. Not.

I mostly agree with you, although I have to say that the Wissmans and Bontraegers are quite okay and that makes them FAR better than the Duggars and Bateseseses and Maxwells.

Whenever I see a video coming with the Duggarlings sawing away on those poor violins, it's time to change the channel.

[kpmom]

I will admit this question made me laugh;

"Are pants ever acceptable?"

As opposed to being naked?  As opposed to wearing a kilt?

I assume she meant pants on females, but that's not how she worded it on the blog.

[Lurky]

22 minutes ago, kpmom said:

I assume she meant pants on females, but that's not how she worded it on the blog.

In the UK, pants = underwear, so I was laughing in a different way!

[Granwych]

My single question for a prospective SIL would be:  Where will you be hiding if you ever hurt my daughter in any way, shape, or form?

[Odd1Out]

I'm so confused by the whole thing. I watched the linked video of Reagan and Haley announcing their engagement. I have not followed this family so don't know the background on them. I just read the comments in this thread. I was expecting to see two very awkward, scared to be near each other people. I was shocked. They seem 'normal' and very comfortable together. They both seem to be educated and aware of the world around them. So it's more confusing as to why this went this route.