The Willis Family: Rape Charges Part 2

[Hisey]

On 4/14/2018 at 12:06 PM, feministxtian said:

As a DV survivor, leaving isn't that easy. My X threatened me, threatened the children, threatened to keep my youngest (who was his bio kid). Even after he threw me out, the harassment didn't stop. He cut my brake lines, stalked me, told the most outrageous shit, would break into my apartment (when we finally had a place to live), call the kids' schools and make shit up, etc. 

It's so easy to say leave. Truth is, when you're married to an abusive fuck who wouldn't think twice about killing you or the children, it's almost safer to stay...at least you get to keep breathing. And, when you have no money, nowhere to go, and at least your kids have beds to sleep in and food in their bellies in your current situation...

I tried to leave three times. Finally he decided that we had to go (he reconnected with some girl he knew years before) and tossed us out at the end of his gun. We lived in a park for about a month, 4 people in a Dodge Grand Caravan. 

So...for all of you who wonder why she didn't take the children and leave...she was just as stuck as the kids...and when you're married to someone who's that violent, there's no guarantee you'll live through the attempt to leave. To get away from my X, I had to petition the court to move back to my hometown...finally there I could breathe again instead of wondering what he was going to do next. 

But you left. It wasn't easy, but you left. Again, I know the type of man you are describing. It's dangerous, yes, but you did leave. Brenda did not. 

4 hours ago, Four is Enough said:

Perhaps simply you lack compassion for what appears to have been a woman, a mother, who despite appearing to have a good life, was trapped in a nightmare. Have you read any of the discussions about what it's really like to be in Brenda's situation?

People have done it. My own mother (eventually) did it. It can be done. 

Brenda knew her little girls were being raped. Any day of the week, she could have fled with them to a shelter. You think her inaction is OK or excusable, I do not. As parents, we sometimes have to do hard, even dangerous, things to save our kids.

It amazes me that anyone would make the argument that Brenda's only option was to remain in the home and allow her little girls to be raped by her monster husband.

[feministxtian]

17 minutes ago, Hisey said:

But you left. It wasn't easy, but you left. Again, I know the type of man you are describing. It's dangerous, yes, but you did leave. Brenda did not. 

I left with a Remington rifle pointed in my face. I didn't necessarily get to PLAN to leave. He came home and told me I had an hour to pack shit and get the fk out or he'd start firing. 

You still don't get it, do you? 

[caropeters]

First time poster here. I've been invested in the family for years now. I watched their show as it aired when I was in high school, and continued to follow them on social media after the show ended and followed the case very closely as everything surrounding Toby unfolded. 

My take is that Brenda is a flawed human; she arguably could have done more, but she didn't - and nor did anyone else who might have had similar knowledge of the family dynamic or similar inklings, until that family friend finally went to the authorities in 2016. You can certainly argue that she knew the most or knew enough - it's just so complicated to unpack her experience, and I think a lot of the people posting here have done such a great job of bringing our attention to the murkier aspects of Brenda's particular situation as a victim herself. 

When the news first broke that Toby had been arrested for assaulting a minor, my initial thought was that it was one of his kids, and Jessica in particular - just from watching the show and observing their dynamic, I think a lot of fans' minds went there instantly, though we didn't voice it as we didn't want to speculate as to the identity of a victim. The reaction within the fandom, to my eyes, was one of dismay, but not one of total shock. To me, the fact that fans who had only had the tiniest glimpse (relatively speaking) into these people's lives all immediately knew, on some level, that Jessica in particular was that victim (when it was initially only one victim), says that those closer or even within the family (both immediate and broad) might have known, on some level, that something was very much amiss within that family. 

It took too long for this to come to light. That is without a doubt. But what I learned from Jessica's account is that the process of freeing herself, and eventually her family, was one that required numerous steps and immense courage - both things that she was only able to embrace once she had the unwavering support of her now husband, Sean. Not everyone has a figure like that in their lives, and I keep thinking about that as I think about Brenda. We often become so attached to our romantic partners that we don't function, or don't think we can function, without them. The parallels here, from two completely opposite ends of the spectrum, between Jessica's relationship with Sean (the healthy side of being able to depend on someone, in turn engendering strength and action) and Brenda's relationship with Toby (the unhealthy side, of dependency to the point of inaction and weakness) is really interesting to me, and could perhaps be a fruitful avenue to explore as we all try to make sense of such situations.

At the core of it, that's what we're all trying to do, right? We examine a situation such as this one, and try to learn from it ourselves. If we are simply peeling through these people's lives for the sake of an argument or for fun, then I think that is very unfortunate. 

 

 

[Palimpsest]

1 hour ago, Stpauligirlmn said:

 I didnt know until Jessica's post that Brenda Willis' statement was a lie.

What statement and what lie?  Genuine question.  I'm not seeing the lie.

Jessica's blog post was actually very compassionate towards her mother.  She clearly stated that she saw her mother as another victim - and another survivor.

I'm sure Jessica has mixed feelings towards her mother.  I'm sure that many survivors of abuse have those feelings for those who failed to protect.  Me included.  

[Sky with diamonds]

Due to the sensitive nature of some of what has been discussed in here, will the be a part 3? 

I admit I watched the show, and I liked the music. Reminded me quite a bit of Newfoundland music that I so love. I was horrified to read the allegations about Toby...and I had no idea it happened more than once. Hope he rots in prison to be blunt. My heart goes out to the other members of the family. I think Jessica is a brave lady. I cried reading her blog. 

[Beermeet]

This article has the statement of Brenda:

http://www.nickiswift.com/24825/untold-truth-willis-family/

[Palimpsest]

4 minutes ago, Beermeet said:

This article has the statement of Brenda:

http://www.nickiswift.com/24825/untold-truth-willis-family/

Thanks.

Quote

 

Brenda released a statement about her husband's arrest on Sept. 14, 2016: "I was shocked and devastated by the revelation of events leading to Toby Willis' arrest. As these are very trying times for the Willis family, I kindly ask all to respect our family's privacy. As a mother of twelve, my first priority remains with my children and helping them through this traumatic event."

"We are cancelling all appearances for the foreseeable future to focus on the children and their well being," she said, via the statement. "We apologize for any inconvenience this may cause." She concluded, "We have, and will continue, to fully cooperate with law enforcement officials, and ask that you direct all inquires regarding Toby Willis' case to the District Attorney's office, who [has] our complete support."

Read More: http://www.nickiswift.com/24825/untold-truth-willis-family/?utm_campaign=clip

 

Where is the lie?  I'm still not getting it.

[EmmieJ]

A quick note about settlements.   Attorneys take their cut.  Depending on when the case settled (quickly, before the parties even discussed mediation , or as trial approached, experts were retained and deposed, etc), attorneys fees could have taken 40% of the award.  Deduct the other costs like the filing fee, depositions, expert fees, and 100 million becomes perhaps 50 million.  Nothing to sneeze at, but how much of that made it to Toby?  I have no idea.  Many a lottery big winner has nothing to show for it a few years later.

[Alicja]

Y'all can blame Brenda and deny to view her as a victim but the fact of the matter is that unless she was actively partaking in and encouraging child abuse, she was absolutely a victim of Toby's abuse. Knowing your child is being hurt by your husband but not being able to do anything about it because he's so violent and you're scared shitless that he could kill you or your child is psychological torture. You can't change my mind on this.

Seriously, "you can't just leave" is an elementary principle of abusive situations. 

 

Signed, someone who had to witness domestic violence at an early age and spent most of her 2017 in a sexually abusive relationship.

[faraway]

Regarding the settlement: afaik we have never seen or heard anything about that money. Toby has two living siblings so it was probably divided between his parents and the 3 of them in some way. But that's only speculation, maybe the Willis seniors kept it safe somewhere, donated it, blew through it, who knows. On the show the grandparents house was shown once and it was a rather humble abode, but I think it was said they moved to Florida(?), so maybe they bought something nice down there.

[feministxtian]

28 minutes ago, Alicja said:

Y'all can blame Brenda and deny to view her as a victim but the fact of the matter is that unless she was actively partaking in and encouraging child abuse, she was absolutely a victim of Toby's abuse. Knowing your child is being hurt by your husband but not being able to do anything about it because he's so violent and you're scared shitless that he could kill you or your child is psychological torture. You can't change my mind on this.

Seriously, "you can't just leave" is an elementary principle of abusive situations. 

 

Signed, someone who had to witness domestic violence at an early age and spent most of her 2017 in a sexually abusive relationship.

QFT

[Beermeet]

Video of interview part 2 where the mom question was asked:

 

[Palimpsest]

22 minutes ago, Beermeet said:

Video of interview part 2 where the mom question was asked:

Thanks. But the take home message from that video (quite aside from the mom question) is that they are survivors.  As they are indeed.

This thread has been very difficult for me, and will continue to be very difficult for me.  This shit hurts.  Badly.  

I sincerely thank all those survivors who have shared their experiences and thoughts, whether I agree with their conclusions or not.

We all have valid input.  There are no "right" answers.  We all have to process bad experiences in our own ways.  

So, I'm going to check out for a bit.  But I do recommend compassion.  And thought.  And kindness.  Not rapid rushes to judgement.

Judging is so easy.  Trying to understand the complexity of abuse and people's reactions to abuse is not.  

Peace and out.  Until tomorrow (or perhaps even later).  Damn this stuff is hard.

 

 

[Nikedagain?]

2 hours ago, Stpauligirlmn said:

melonin

*melanin

[Beermeet]

1 hour ago, EmmieJ said:

A quick note about settlements.   Attorneys take their cut.  Depending on when the case settled (quickly, before the parties even discussed mediation , or as trial approached, experts were retained and deposed, etc), attorneys fees could have taken 40% of the award.  Deduct the other costs like the filing fee, depositions, expert fees, and 100 million becomes perhaps 50 million.  Nothing to sneeze at, but how much of that made it to Toby?  I have no idea.  Many a lottery big winner has nothing to show for it a few years later.

I was thinking if the sued even have that to fork over!  The Goldman's were awarded $30 mil ( I think)  but OJ didn't have that kind of money laying around.   They were likely to never see much.  Monster must've gotten some good cash tho, they bought Randy Travis' old house in TN as per that article above.

[Stpauligirlmn]

Anybody who read their childs 14 page letter detailing sexual and physical abuse that occurred since she was 3 years old, has lost every right to claim they were "shocked and devastated" by the "revelation" of events leading to Willis' arrest.  That's the big, huge lie Im refering to Plimpsest.

I feel certain that the statement, as well as the follow up statement praising the DA, was very carefully crafted and drafted by her lawyer.

[MarblesMom]

6 hours ago, Stpauligirlmn said:

Well, Im torn between actually responding to Plimpest, or just letting it go.  My field is insurance coverage and defense and I obviously cannot prove im a lawyer.

Most lawyers can spell and punctuate correctly.

MM out.

[molecule]

After many years of being controlled and powerless, it is possible that Brenda knew of the abuse but was still shocked by the fact that all was being revealed (i.e., the revelation). It is likely that she was devastated to learn the scope of it, or to realize everyone would know what had been happening.

Denial is an incredibly powerful coping tool, as is minimizing something in our own minds. A woman who has been gaslighted and controlled has had to develop these tools in order to survive and help her children survive. While it is easy for us to sit outside the situation and see opportunities she had to report what was happening, that doesn't mean that she was able to see those same opportunities from where she sat. I can see Toby telling her that no one would believe her or that he would leave and take the kids or would kill them. She may well have thought that she could do more for them by keeping quiet and staying close.

As she recovers from her own trauma, she will begin to see more clearly what choices she could have made, and that will be crushing. I would rather offer compassion where none is deserved to avoid withholding compassion from someone in desperate need of it.

[Hisey]

Brenda's statement was so dishonest. She was "shocked" that her husband was a rapist? "Shocked", really? She's just playing for sympathy. Did she forget what 9 year old Jessica said? Brenda's known about it for the last 14 years. It would still being going on--perhaps with little Jada--if Jessica's friends hand't helped her. When Brenda said she was "shocked", it showed me she was a liar.

This woman lies and she looks the other way. She lets her daughters gets raped, and doesn't give them comfort, support or medical attention, let alone any protection. These rapes would still be going on--with her knowledge--if Jessica's friends hadn't helped. And Brenda would still be enjoying the benefits of being a reality TV star, and status of being a mom to a perfect homeschooling Christian family.

I won't be an apologist for her. Those little girls deserve better than having the world rush to their mother's defense. I certainly wouldn't want them to believe that if they get married to an abuser they have to give up, because they have no choice. 

At the very least, Brenda could help other women by saying, "Yes, I knew, but I was too scared" (If she WAS scared of Toby,  we really don't know.). But she was probably "too scared" to be that honest, so she pretended she was "shocked."

A mother's duty is to protect, not to have more and more babies. The fact that she had more and more babies tells me she had no plans to leave. After 9-year old Jessica told her she was being RAPED, Brenda went on to have 7 more babies. Which made her far less able to leave.

 

Quote

After many years of being controlled and powerless, it is possible that Brenda knew of the abuse but was still shocked by the fact that all was being revealed 

How do you know she had many years of being controlled and powerless? If you have to make stuff up to defend Brenda, you might need to re-consider things.

Quote

Judging is so easy.  Trying to understand the complexity of abuse and people's reactions to abuse is not.  

 

There's absolutely no evidence Brenda was ever abused. None. No 911 calls, no restraining orders, nothing. But there's lots of evidence that the kids were.

[Firebird]

This is so tough. I don't even know how I feel about my mom, who is still with my dad after finding out some unsavory things he has done with relatives/ friends. I couldnt begin to judge Brenda's Guilt vs. Victim. It's just a lot of hurt for everyone involved. I hope they all find help to navigate the tricky family situations and life. 

[luv2laugh]

I don't feel like I am in a place to judge Brenda. It's really complicated given that both are victims. I agree with both feministxian and Hisey and respect their stories. Brenda seemed to have checked out and went into another world. I think she continued to have babies and portray a perfect life out of deep denial of the sexual abuse and did it in order to stay sane, at the unintentional expense of hurting Jessica. I believe it was a coping mechanism for her. I don't think Brenda maliciously let her children suffer but I just don't think she was in the right state of mind to do anything about it because she was also a victim.

In an ideal world, we'd like to say that as mothers we are mama bears that would do anything for their kids but the fact is, a lot of us have struggles of our own and weaknesses. Women are not meant to do it all and be superwomen, especially women that are victims themselves. Do I wish Brenda did more? Yes. Do I wish Brenda called for help and escaped with the kids? Of course. But for some reason, she wasn't able to. The uncomfortable truth is that not all of us can do what we feel is impossible when we're suffering. Our reality was not Brenda's reality. Brenda might not have even been able to process reality. If I were Jessica, I would also be VERY hurt that my mother didn't protect me. At the same time, I just can't blame Brenda.  It is not that simple to say Brenda should have been bold enough to escape with 12 kids to a DV shelter without any way to provide the life they were accustomed to. She probably felt her children would all suffer more doing so or that Toby could kill them. Toby clearly threatened to murder the kids. I'm not defending Brenda but I'm trying to demonstrate that her reality was not ours.

For instance, Andrea Yates committed a horrific, evil act. The worst murder story I've ever heard of. Andrea Yates was also deeply disturbed, mentally ill, and was a victim of a Patriarchal fundamentalist man that made her have baby after baby. Many people think Andrea Yates needed to be put to death when the truth is, she was so mentally ill that she did the unthinkable. I cannot judge a mentally ill person or a victim. I can hate her actions, be angry at the crime she committed but still have compassion for her as a human being.

On a completely different note, the same logic applies here. We can be disappointed that Brenda didn't act, feel frustrated and disturbed about it, but still have compassion for her as a human being and not judge her story. When tragic things happen, lynch mobs form and we want to blame someone whether they deserve it or not. The truth is, Toby was the problem but I think our society unconsciously prefers to demonize women.  The answers are not always easy nor always black and white. These types of truths can be very uncomfortable for us to accept.

EDIT: On another note, one uncomfortable truth I've had to learn to live with is regarding my mother's mental illness. My mother has both bipolar with extreme hypnomania and Cluster B (histronic & narcisstic) personality disorder. She is the equivalent of a Jill & Lori A clone but 100x worse. I've demonized her and blamed her for all of my problems growing up. Now that I'm older, I've realized that I have to accept her reality is not mine, that she is very mentally ill, and a disadvantaged human.  I cannot have a phone call happen without her throwing F bombs at me and putting me down and visits are near-impossible. There's no way I can handle much communication with her but viewing my mother as a "sick, vulnerable person" has been healing for me.

[molecule]

 

1 hour ago, Hisey said:

How do you know she had many years of being controlled and powerless? If you have to make stuff up to defend Brenda, you might need to re-consider things.

Quote

After many years of being controlled and powerless, it is possible that Brenda knew of the abuse but was still shocked by the fact that all was being revealed 

I don't know any of it. I had intended to make the sentence more conditional ("if she had many years..., it would be possible..."). I wasn't defending her as much as I was trying to suggest that there is a possible point of view from which her statement would not be a lie. I apologize for not being clearer.
 

[faraway]

Unrelated to the previous discussion but I just learned this. This is Sean's dad, so Jess married into country music royalty:

https://www.billboard.com/articles/business/7647919/pete-fisher-ceo-academy-country-music-acm

[Fascinated]

Jessica states that she realized she was an adult now, and needed to take action, and she eventually was able to leave.  I think I recall that it was six months after her departure that a friend notified authorities about the abuse.  So Jessica was unable or unwilling to make that call herself during that time, even though her eleven siblings were still at home.  How terrified of her father, and his potential actions, must she have been in order to not call someone?  Granted, she is not the mother in this family, but it may shed some light on the untenable situation Brenda was also in.  We don’t know Brenda’s story, and we may never.  I will reserve judgment of Brenda until I hear her version of events.  Either way, she escaped one type of hell and must have plunged immediately into another, as I can’t imagine the guilt she must be feeling for not protecting the children, whatever the reasons.  

[SamiKatz]

10 hours ago, MarblesMom said:

Most lawyers can spell and punctuate correctly.

MM out.

I've worked as an admin assist for many, many years and during that time have dealt with corporate, real estate and criminal lawyers.  Lots of of them could not spell or punctuate correctly. They have admins and software programs to do it for them.

just saying.