Counting On Season Two

[calimojo]

@formergothardite  I agree about Gil and Kelly.    There is a different feel on this board from even a year ago.  When I first joined, it felt like there was almost a sense of activism to get the word out about how destructive this cult is to the development of children, and toward women, and of course the social influence they were having on many many issues.  It feels different now.  I can't describe it much, but it feels like on some level this is turning more into a fan site that likes to have mild snark against the obviously silliness of the Duggars, and not really looking at the potential for damage this cult has on individuals, kids, women, families and society in general.

 

Anyway, changing the subject.  When Jinger said she wants a houseful of kids and just love kids, I had to shake my head.  Of all the older girls, Jinger has always seemed the least connected to the littles.  Even when she handles Spurgeon or Meri in the most recent episode,  she doesn't seem as natural as say Anna or even Jana does.  Again,  it just is an example of Jinger seeming to say what she has been trained to say.  I would just love to see a Duggar kid, especially a girl, say, honestly that they only wanted a couple of kids, or none at all.  It is possible to be a deeply religious person and not want to be buried in kids all the time.  Of all the older girls,  I sort of thought JInger might be the least likely to have a huge family.  Joy is another one that I think is less than enamored with the idea of a huge amount of kids, but then again,  that is presuming they have a choice.

[Palimpsest]

9 hours ago, YourGodIsNotMine said:

Call  me crazy, but I worry that Jill's transformation from bubbly to terrified is due to Derick. His appearance and social media posts remind me of cult leaders who go bad. Maybe he is controlling her and not allowing her out. It's easy to do away from family in a foreign land.

OK.  I'll call you guilty of over-speculation too.  And as others have said, his scruffy appearance and social media posts are hardly indicative of a cult leader - let alone one gone bad.  Normal 20s male scuff and typical biblical babbling Fundie missionary posts.

And, you can relax for the moment.  They are back in the USA and she is apparently out and about with her family and not isolated.

8 hours ago, YourGodIsNotMine said:

<snip for space>

Something is up. Whether that is in the marriage or something else, I don't know. But I do know domestic abuse victims, including my own mom and my sisters. And Jill's demeanor screams at me.

I am sorry about your mother and your sisters.

Jill didn't seem terrified to me at all. She struck me as just protective of her child in a culture that is still alien to her, where she lacks the mod cons that she is used too, and in a country that is unstable politically.  I would not blame the Dillards for pulling out of this particular situation.  I don't think their sort of fake missionarying has come up to their naive expectations.  It is a lot harder and less comfortable than it looked.

23 minutes ago, Four is Enough said:

<snipped for space>

I think she's discovering that her "burden for missions" is more "burden" and less "missions".

I agreed with your entire post but I definitely think this is the crux of the matter.

 

[Palimpsest]

24 minutes ago, calimojo said:

There is a different feel on this board from even a year ago.  When I first joined, it felt like there was almost a sense of activism to get the word out about how destructive this cult is to the development of children, and toward women, and of course the social influence they were having on many many issues.  It feels different now.  I can't describe it much, but it feels like on some level this is turning more into a fan site that likes to have mild snark against the obviously silliness of the Duggars, and not really looking at the potential for damage this cult has on individuals, kids, women, families and society in general.

I think the sense of activism is still here.  Check out the QOS threads.   It is just a constant effort in certain threads (Duggar and Bates) to keep the focus on the flaws of Fundamentalism and away from facile Fandom.  

Each new season of the Duggar and Bates shows brings new people here.  It is a reality and new people are very welcome.  

Some new members are genuinely interested in finding out more about the cult and use the Duggar and Bateses threads as a gateway to learning more about extreme Fundamentalist beliefs.  Some are only interested in snarking, and have to adjust to the fact that we don't tolerate really nasty or facile snark.  Finally, some are out and out fans just wanting to fawn on the families.  The last two categories we attempt to educate.  If they are resistant to that they don't usually last long.  I do have to admit that a few are very persistent in trying to persuade us that these families and their horrible beliefs are harmless. 

[formergothardite]

I agree that the activism is still here, it is just a constant battle against people who are either totally ignorant about the beliefs of the Duggars and Bates and want to fawn, or people who know but want to ignore and gush over how wonderful they are. The latter category, who have actually complained about being reminded these folks have bad beliefs, are the ones I don't get. Why stay here if it is going to annoy you to be reminded about the Bates and Duggars evil beliefs and lifestyle? 

[calimojo]

I have been one to admit to enjoying the Bates show much more than the duggars.  They are just more lively and appear less robotic in their interactions with each other.  SO if I only look at the surface, they are more entertaining.  But when you peek below the surface, they are more disturbing because of their seemingly normal outward appearance, they are more a threat to society as a whole, imo.  While on an individual level, the kids may be more likeable,  they have all been trained up and blanket trained, and taught from birth the crazy belief system of the cult.  So, if I had a gun to my head and had to choose to spend time with either the Bates or Duggar family, I would choose the Bates as they seem more fun,  Either choice is pretty revolting in the end.  The Bates, aside perhaps from money management are smarter than the duggars.  This is why they can look at the  Duggar family and study the negative  things written about them, and then modify their own presentation.  For people who think the Bates are more fundie lite,  they should watch the Duggar episodes when the Bates visited.  That is a different family from what is presented today.    For the kids,  I think the Bates kids do have a few advantages over the Duggars.  Because Gil never could support the whole family,  some of the older kids were allowed to work.  And some have been allowed to go to college.  I know most have gone to Crown, but Zach did a police academy thing and Michael went to s a community college, I believe.  The kids also move off of the compound when married with 2 so far living quite a distance away.    This bodes well to them slowly  having their belief systems challenged.  Where as I think JB will work hard to always keep the adult kids dependent on him in some way, even if living away.

Oh and based on her few seconds of screen time,  I think Michelle is truly off her rocker.   Her voice is fast approaching a pitch that only dogs will be able to hear.  And her smile has stretched to "Joker-esque" proportions.

 

Anyway,  Poor Jinger.  Jeremy seems to like her meek and mild.   What a life to be doomed to.  Hopefully Jeremy will not be quite as sold on a having eleventy kids.  I think he is most definitely sold on being a reality tv star. TV doesn't do him any favors though as he is definitely better looking from a distance than he is up close.    

[freethemall]

Just watched the episode. A few thoughts:

- The lying about courtship is always so ridiculous. It seems like the same talking head (based on the outfit) that Jinger says she is not "officially" courting Jeremy, but then talks about "my guy" and how much she likes him and is telling the story of how he asked her to court. Maybe though it's just questions being asked in the order of the narrative? So they knew they'd air that part of the TH before the part where he asks her to court? Still, ridiculous.

- Same with Jessa and her lying in her TH. Although even worse is the ridiculous "Yeah of course she's in love" and then discusses HOW JINGER IS IN LOVE WITH JESSA. You're such a smug bitch Jessa.

- I didn't notice the super bad blood between Jessa and Ben when he's making breakfast. The honeymoon phase is over, most of us are not goo-goo-ga-ga with our spouses, especially in the morning, doesn't mean you're angry. Also don't think any of us should be overspeculating on these boards the way some have about this one scene being representative of their sex lives and marriage dynamic....

- The several hour time lapse between Jim Bob and Jeremy, which I know a lot of people have been confused why it took so long. Remember that this is all a film shoot, so they have to get to the coffee shop, set up the scene (maybe lighting), talk to the owners, do a few retakes, etc. It's like in movies how one 5 minute scene can take hours.

- The babysitting seemed really fake. The Napier woman took her baby with her, and it seemed like she came back about an hour later. This wasn't real babysitting, this was just a staged set-up for Jessa to talk about adoption and baby-proof her house.

- Highly appreciate Anna's snark about Jessa and Jinger not following directions. She tries so hard to keep sweet but obviously thinks the girls are dumbasses in that moment.

- Jinger, not Jinge. Fuck that.

[nst]

2 hours ago, calimojo said:

 @WhippleI love that you used Folie a Deux in a sentence.  This entire family, and their close associates all have a shared delusion. 

Anyway,  I had the same thought you did in that Jill may seem more subdued because of her concern for Derrick.  Remember her post a while back that they have all had some bouts with illness.  It seemed to be a response to the social media posts about how sickly Derrick has looked and his weight loss.  She may just be worried about his health.  I don't think that Derrick has turned into some crazed cult leader.  But I think he is kind of in his element, living off grid to a degree and 'working' with locals, which as a single person, like he was in Nepal is relatively easy to do.  His needs, on his own were pretty simple.  But dragging a wife and baby, especially a wife who was raised in an extremely sheltered way,  along on his adventures is a whole new ball game. 

I feel for Jill.  Even though their home appears quite nice, even luxurious for the area,  living there with a daily battle of creepy crawlies  and intermittent water and power supply and a small child has to be rough for someone who isn't used to that.  Honestly I would not cope at all well with that myself.  I can live without internet, tv, and possible electricity some of the time, but no running water sucks.  And if Derrick is out all day converting Catholics, Jill, who is used to being surrounded by 20 other people all the time is likely quite lonely.  Add to that the real or imagined threat of harm to her or her baby, and it must be a very uncomfortable lifestyle for her, despite her mandate to follow her husband at all times. 

If Derrick is smart enough and sensitive enough to recognize that their current lifestyle is not well suited to Jill, then I commend him for it.  If he takes them back to that mission field, then I will be disappointed in him because it will be clear that he is serving himself and not the greater good of those who depend on him. 

 

 

Jill looked heavy to me.  Not pregnant, but thick through the middle.  I suspect her rectus adb muscles are still not recovered from her pregnancy and c section.  But a few months ago she did look thinner.  Not body shaming here,  but more that I find it interesting that Derrick just got thinner and thinner whilst in CA and Jill seems to have put on some weight, somewhat recently.  Fluctuations in weight can be a sign of stress.  Or not.  Perhaps if Jill has felt more housebound lately,  she has decreased the amount of activity she was getting or out of boredom is eating more.  (Something many of us can relate to, I am sure)

 

 

perhaps that is why Joy looks so sad all the time - she hears whining from Jill on a regular basis.  

as for Folie a Deux well hello the xfiles

 

1 hour ago, formergothardite said:

Wondering this is just another reason that you shouldn't remain "neutral" on their really evil lifestyle. I'm still amazed when members here want to whitewash the evil that these families represent. 

Also, let us all hope that Jill and Derick are NOTHING like Gil and Kelly. Gil and Kelly are a very creepy and disturbing match. Those two freak me out because they can be so bad and yet are able to convince people that they are just normal conservative Christians. 

not only evil - but what they cover up and and constantly talking about walking through

cough Jessa cough 

the whole thing reeks 

and Josh hiding in a corner is perfect for him - I hope he stays in that corner and feels like bitch he is 

1 hour ago, Palimpsest said:

OK.  I'll call you guilty of over-speculation too.  And as others have said, his scruffy appearance and social media posts are hardly indicative of a cult leader - let alone one gone bad.  Normal 20s male scuff and typical biblical babbling Fundie missionary posts.

And, you can relax for the moment.  They are back in the USA and she is apparently out and about with her family and not isolated.

I am sorry about your mother and your sisters.

Jill didn't seem terrified to me at all. She struck me as just protective of her child in a culture that is still alien to her, where she lacks the mod cons that she is used too, and in a country that is unstable politically.  I would not blame the Dillards for pulling out of this particular situation.  I don't think their sort of fake missionarying has come up to their naive expectations.  It is a lot harder and less comfortable than it looked.

I agreed with your entire post but I definitely think this is the crux of the matter.

 

it never occurred to me probably because i am not a mother 

is that Jill is afraid for her son in SCA 

I get it 

still 

[nst]

36 minutes ago, freethemall said:

Just watched the episode. A few thoughts:

- The lying about courtship is always so ridiculous. It seems like the same talking head (based on the outfit) that Jinger says she is not "officially" courting Jeremy, but then talks about "my guy" and how much she likes him and is telling the story of how he asked her to court. Maybe though it's just questions being asked in the order of the narrative? So they knew they'd air that part of the TH before the part where he asks her to court? Still, ridiculous.

- Same with Jessa and her lying in her TH. Although even worse is the ridiculous "Yeah of course she's in love" and then discusses HOW JINGER IS IN LOVE WITH JESSA. You're such a smug bitch Jessa.

- I didn't notice the super bad blood between Jessa and Ben when he's making breakfast. The honeymoon phase is over, most of us are not goo-goo-ga-ga with our spouses, especially in the morning, doesn't mean you're angry. Also don't think any of us should be overspeculating on these boards the way some have about this one scene being representative of their sex lives and marriage dynamic....

- The several hour time lapse between Jim Bob and Jeremy, which I know a lot of people have been confused why it took so long. Remember that this is all a film shoot, so they have to get to the coffee shop, set up the scene (maybe lighting), talk to the owners, do a few retakes, etc. It's like in movies how one 5 minute scene can take hours.

- The babysitting seemed really fake. The Napier woman took her baby with her, and it seemed like she came back about an hour later. This wasn't real babysitting, this was just a staged set-up for Jessa to talk about adoption and baby-proof her house.

- Highly appreciate Anna's snark about Jessa and Jinger not following directions. She tries so hard to keep sweet but obviously thinks the girls are dumbasses in that moment.

- Jinger, not Jinge. Fuck that.

Hey it's her name "jinge" I stand by it - Her headship claimed IT - it's hers! I use it from now on. 

as for discussing Ben and Jessa's conception rituals -  you do know I am kidding

half but still 

you think the babysitting was REAL - I can sell you the tire that Jessa changed last time while 3 months pregnant 

[Bad Wolf]

We've certainly scrutinized  Derick on FJ.

Derrick the savior, co!lege education, real job.

Derrick the idiot, quits job and goes to dangerous CA.

Derrick the wise, goes to dangerous CA and removes his family from the JB  cult.

Derrick the sickly, loses weight.

Derrick the malformed, what happened to his teeth?

Derick the brave, man bun rocks. In your face JB.

Derick the  crazy cult leader, abuses his wife.

Will the real Derick please stand up?

[just...sare]

17 hours ago, ClaraOswin said:

I liked (well, hated) when they showed they were "good" pet owners by taking their dog to get a bath. Blech. It was clear that poor dog was starved for attention. And the episode made it even more apparent. Especially when Michelle said "I think he was happy to get the attention."  Sad that your dog is super excited about 10 minutes of attention during a bath.

You'd think, with 19 children including the howler boys, that in a normal family the dog would want to get less attention, not more, like that viral story about the dog going for naps at someone's house. How is it even possible for 21 people to ignore a dog??

 

Spoiler

An older, tired-looking dog wandered into my yard; I could tell from his collar and well-fed belly that he had a home and was well taken care of. 

He calmly came over to me, I gave him a few pats on his head; he then followed me into my house, slowly walked down the hall, curled up in the corner and fell asleep. 

An hour later, he went to the door, and I let him out. 

The next day he was back, greeted me in my yard, walked inside and resumed his spot in the hall and again slept for about an hour. This continued off and on for several weeks. 

Curious I pinned a note to his collar: 'I would like to find out who the owner of this wonderful sweet dog is and ask if you are aware that almost every afternoon your dog comes to my house for a nap.'

The next day he arrived for his nap, with a different note pinned to his collar: 'He lives in a home with 6 children, 2 under the age of 3 - he's trying to catch up on his sleep. Can I come with him tomorrow?'

That being said, my dogs get plenty of attention but would still be ecstatic to have more. I guess it's more about what Michelle said than the actual amount of attention paid to the dog.

Spoiler

 

[calimojo]

Anna has moments when you can see is likely brighter than the others, but she is soooo steeped in the tea, that it will be awhile before she ever, of if ever figures it out.  I think from her perspective, she is physically much more comfortable now than she was in her childhood home, that she mistakes this for security and for a good thing.  Her childhood home was very cramped, and looked very worn.  I have no idea if true or not, but her family seemed to be on the edge of poverty.    Now she lives in a big and comfortable home.  Has probably access to enough money to live comfortably.  Isn't worried about her how she will feed her children, likely has some help with childcare, etc.  Except for the big elephant ( or baboon) in the corner,  she probably feels like she has a good set up.  

 

I wonder a bit about the politics of the family.  No, not governmental politics, but the politics of a fairly large organization.  For example,  Does the management of the home still come down from Michelle?  Does she organize and direct what is to be done?  Is their a hierarchy of power.  Like, is Jana 'over' Anna?  Or is Anna accorded more authority because she is married to the first born, she is a married woman, and she is a mother?  Does Jana run the home?  I mean I think we all assume she does a lot of the work,  but does she make the decisions, or does she just get a list of chores that have to be done and then she does them or delegates some of them to the other kids. 

Are the boys, over the age of 16 or 18, lower on the power structure than Jana?  Does Jana get to tell them what their jobs will be for each day?    Does Jim Bob have some sort of Morning 'huddle' where they activities, roles/responsibilities are delegated and assigned?  Is JD the deFacto second in charge after JB or now that Josh is back,  is he now back to being JB's second? 

 

Does Michelle play any role at all in Homeschooling or is that now completely farmed out to the Paine girl or another fundie friend? 

 

If TLC wanted to do a true show about this family,  This is what I would be interested in.  How the family works and is organized is what got me hooked on them to begin with years ago with the first 2 specials.  Of course, I was just watching on the surface, so it wasn't until I caught the specials a few years later on re-runs while I was cooped up in side due to bad weather that I really started to notice all of the dysfunction. 

 

Showing the true dysfunction, and even some of the ways in which they might function well,  ( I mean there has to be something they are good at) would be far more interesting.  Showing truly how they structure their day.  What do those middle boys do?  Why do they all need to learn to operate heavy equipment and get CDL licenses,  what are they using that for?  What work does Ben leave the house for each day?  How is home school accomplished?    Show the warts or at least some of them.  Stop trying to show this family as perfect and show them actually show them as they are.

Wouldn't it be interesting if one of the girls could actually admit that the idea of birthing 20 kids is scary?  I mean, honestly,  if TLC actually got some decent producers/directors they could possibly have an interesting show.  But what they are doing now is a joke.  A sad joke.

 

[SassyPants]

3 hours ago, nst said:

and this - will give you all peace once you realize they are real and anything they project on tv is NOT real. 

even anything they project on their social media is not real 

it's an act. 

they have just become highly trained fake actors. 

It's brilliant because it's pure nonsense

 

the pure non reaction of Joy speaks volumes imo 

and Jana well that make me all happy that she was no where in the room 

"Jinge" is a joke and she reinforces it next week 

I always thought that half the stuff that flowed from their mouths, especially with regards to things like no TV, music, books or private conversations was bullshit.

[SassyPants]

27 minutes ago, calimojo said:

Anna has moments when you can see is likely brighter than the others, but she is soooo steeped in the tea, that it will be awhile before she ever, of if ever figures it out.  I think from her perspective, she is physically much more comfortable now than she was in her childhood home, that she mistakes this for security and for a good thing.  Her childhood home was very cramped, and looked very worn.  I have no idea if true or not, but her family seemed to be on the edge of poverty.    Now she lives in a big and comfortable home.  Has probably access to enough money to live comfortably.  Isn't worried about her how she will feed her children, likely has some help with childcare, etc.  Except for the big elephant ( or baboon) in the corner,  she probably feels like she has a good set up.  

 

I wonder a bit about the politics of the family.  No, not governmental politics, but the politics of a fairly large organization.  For example,  Does the management of the home still come down from Michelle?  Does she organize and direct what is to be done?  Is their a hierarchy of power.  Like, is Jana 'over' Anna?  Or is Anna accorded more authority because she is married to the first born, she is a married woman, and she is a mother?  Does Jana run the home?  I mean I think we all assume she does a lot of the work,  but does she make the decisions, or does she just get a list of chores that have to be done and then she does them or delegates some of them to the other kids. 

Are the boys, over the age of 16 or 18, lower on the power structure than Jana?  Does Jana get to tell them what their jobs will be for each day?    Does Jim Bob have some sort of Morning 'huddle' where they activities, roles/responsibilities are delegated and assigned?  Is JD the deFacto second in charge after JB or now that Josh is back,  is he now back to being JB's second? 

 

Does Michelle play any role at all in Homeschooling or is that now completely farmed out to the Paine girl or another fundie friend? 

 

If TLC wanted to do a true show about this family,  This is what I would be interested in.  How the family works and is organized is what got me hooked on them to begin with years ago with the first 2 specials.  Of course, I was just watching on the surface, so it wasn't until I caught the specials a few years later on re-runs while I was cooped up in side due to bad weather that I really started to notice all of the dysfunction. 

 

Showing the true dysfunction, and even some of the ways in which they might function well,  ( I mean there has to be something they are good at) would be far more interesting.  Showing truly how they structure their day.  What do those middle boys do?  Why do they all need to learn to operate heavy equipment and get CDL licenses,  what are they using that for?  What work does Ben leave the house for each day?  How is home school accomplished?    Show the warts or at least some of them.  Stop trying to show this family as perfect and show them actually show them as they are.

Wouldn't it be interesting if one of the girls could actually admit that the idea of birthing 20 kids is scary?  I mean, honestly,  if TLC actually got some decent producers/directors they could possibly have an interesting show.  But what they are doing now is a joke.  A sad joke.

 

Perhaps, at one time in the very distant past, there was a home hierarchy, but IMO, those days are long gone. I picture the daily operation of the TTH to be much like Lord of The Flies.

[Coconut Flan]

59 minutes ago, Bad Wolf said:

We've certainly scrutinized  Derick on FJ.

Derrick the savior, co!lege education, real job.

Derrick the idiot, quits job and goes to dangerous CA.

Derrick the wise, goes to dangerous CA and removes his family from the JB  cult.

Derrick the sickly, loses weight.

Derrick the malformed, what happened to his teeth?

Derick the brave, man bun rocks. In your face JB.

Derick the  crazy cult leader, abuses his wife.

Will the real Derick please stand up?

And the real one is very likely none of the above.  It's easy to stereotype someone we don't know and only see in instagram views and what the producers and editors give us. 

[Whipple]

1 hour ago, Bad Wolf said:

We've certainly scrutinized  Derick on FJ.

Derrick the savior, co!lege education, real job.

Derrick the idiot, quits job and goes to dangerous CA.

Derrick the wise, goes to dangerous CA and removes his family from the JB  cult.

Derrick the sickly, loses weight.

Derrick the malformed, what happened to his teeth?

Derick the brave, man bun rocks. In your face JB.

Derick the  crazy cult leader, abuses his wife.

Will the real Derick please stand up?

As far as FJ'ers scrutinizing Derick, I say go ahead. He put himself on TV and we are a snark site not a fan site. For the record, I don't think that Derick is a crazed cult leader. Until recently, I was more in the camp savior,  and you rock the manbun Derick. Until the post about sloth and slavery. That's what turned it for me. I know evangelicals say a lot of crazy shit but this quote didn't make any sense at all unless it was to say FU Duggars. Never commented on appearance because I dk, I just realized now that I  usually don't join in when it comes to discussions about appearance.

I think the reason I give more attention Derick than any of the others is that I had such high hopes for him.

3 hours ago, calimojo said:

@formergothardite  I agree about Gil and Kelly.    There is a different feel on this board from even a year ago.  When I first joined, it felt like there was almost a sense of activism to get the word out about how destructive this cult is to the development of children, and toward women, and of course the social influence they were having on many many issues.  It feels different now.  I can't describe it much, but it feels like on some level this is turning more into a fan site that likes to have mild snark against the obviously silliness of the Duggars, and not really looking at the potential for damage this cult has on individuals, kids, women, families and society in general.

You are right about this. I have noticed that it depends on the thread and we don't have any threads going about the Duggars, abuse, and misogyny that goes a little deeper. Maybe someone should start one.

 

[Timetostoplurking]

I have to admit to being really turned off by the Dugger-likers that flair up occasionally on FJ.  Here is why:

-We don't know these people!!

-Although thier babies are cute, so are 99.99999% of all the babies I see on a regular basis.  (Of course mine are the cutest.  Ha)

-I don't have a favorite Duggar, cuz....you know....I'm not a fan....and I DONT KNOW THEM. Having a favorite implies that I like them....which I don't!!!

-I want the best for the Duggar kids, by that I mean, I want them to be happy in the same way I want all 20 somethings to be happy.  Everyone should have the opportunity to seek happiness.  They aren't special to me.

-my heart doesn't break for any of them.  Mostly because I DONT KNOW THEM!  

-I do find them entertaining because of the wierd twisted beliefs, bizarre rules and, well, just the shear quantity of them.  But I still hate what they stand for.  

-I have no problem with pregnancy watching.  They bring it on themselves.  After all this is a snark site.   Isn't it??  

 

Im not sure where I'm going with this post... I guess I just have a bit of time on my hands and a few random thoughts in my head.  Lol

 

-

[SassyPants]

I do think it's odd that people here comment about those who comment in one way or another about the 2nd generation Duggars (in particular) or Bateses (less so), YET so many are firmly able to make all sorts of assessments about JB and Michelle as well as Gil and Kelly. Why is that? If we do not know anything IRL about the 2nd generation, why do some believe that we actually DO KNOW so much about the first generation? It's a double standard, IMO-

 

 

[imokit]

26 minutes ago, SassyPants said:

I do think it's odd that people here comment about those who comment in one way or another about the 2nd generation Duggars (in particular) or Bateses (less so), YET so many are firmly able to make all sorts of assessments about JB and Michelle as well as Gil and Kelly. Why is that? If we do not know anything IRL about the 2nd generation, why do some believe that we actually DO KNOW so much about the first generation? It's a double standard, IMO-

Gill & Kelly along with JB & M are the most deserving of judgement.   Facts we know about them

all 4 were:

1) raised semi normally, had access to mainstream education

2) chose as a couple to have as many children as possible, even when they could see that they were relying on older children to do a lot of parenting & when there was risk of existing children becoming motherless

3)  chose to restrict their children in terms of education & access to the world

4) chose to use & advertise harmful parenting practises which if not technically abusive, lend to abuse - Gill & Kelly recommend Ezzo, JB&M the pearls & M spoke about blanket training the howlers

5) chose to go on television opening thereby opening their families up to public scrutinity

6) its worth noting that since going on television, all 4 are impressively shy about discussing physical discipline, adding an extra layer of dishonesty to their show - it doesn't show the tears & harsh parenting behind the smiling well behaved children in a large family

 

JB & M - chose to cover up the sexual abuse perpetrated by their son against their daughters, they neglected to get their son appropriate help

These are all facts which can be substantiated.

In terms of the 2nd generation it is harder -

1) they've had less choice about their lifestyle

- its what they know

- if they leave they go to hell

- if they leave they lose contact with their siblings some of whom are small children who look up to them as parental figures

- - - - > these children may also be upset with worrying about their soles

- they don't have the education or life skills required to financially support themselves easily

 

In terms of facts about them and their beliefs

Josh and Anna - Josh has cheated, they seem to like having babies, they are currently homeschooling, get Jslave support

- we can suspect they continue JB&Ms lifestyle but we have no proof, they have not personally endorsed any parenting guides

- unknown where they currently live or where Josh works, though good evidence for JB support in both

 

Jill & Derrick - married, with one baby who will probably be 2 before any sibling is born, have spent time in SA as a couple away from JB & have actually had to parent their kid without familial support

- anything else is speculation, some of it more likely than others

Jessa and Ben - married, he works for JB and studies, fertile, have cute baby, get lots of help from Jslaves, living in Duggar provided house

- unknown what Ben will do with is education and how it will work out 

- the rest is speculation

Jinger & Jeremy - courting & engaged, JB approves, he has a job which doesn't involve JB supporting him, he's had some life experience & alcohol

Zach & Whitney - met in sonic (she had a job), converted conventional dating to courtship, he works as a police office & has attended police academy with women, have 2 cute babies

Erin & Chad - Chad has job, Erin has job which continued post marriage & baby 1, have fertility issues, Erin has discovered broccoli & vegetable and now makes small siblings eat them when they come to her house, have 2 babies & a puppy

Alyssa & John - live in Florida, near his parents, his dad is Republican politician, he does things to air conditioners, and together they clean things as a second job, have 1 cute baby who will probably be 2 before any sibling is born, have different clothing rules to her parents

Michael & Brandon - waited for education before marrying, Michael has graduation online secular community college, Brandon works for ATI, approaching 1 year anniversary without pregnancy announcement (reasons not shared).

 

I've deliberately been limited in the facts I've put down & restricted it to things I can substantiate.  A lot of things are pretty likely in terms of their beliefs, by omitting them I'm not saying they don't have them I'm saying we can't prove it.  All of these couples can change or evolve.

Other than Josh & Anna - none of them have faced the education issue, we don't know that they will home-school (and it could well be that they will change their minds or give it a go and then realise they're out of their depth and stop).  We don't know.

We don't know if or how much they will limit their children and their options.

We don't know how much physical discipline they're using.

We don't know if they will continue having children until children are raising children.

 

All of it is to varying degrees speculation.  We do know things about their parents.

 

To clarify I'm in no way suggesting that those children have left the fold or changed their fold, evidence to me would imply that they all to a degree still in, I'm saying that they aren't their parents and we don't know for a fact they have their parents beliefs until they start telling us.  Until they start saying they don't believe something or showing a clear sign of leaving we can assume, but that's different from the evidence we have against their parents.

[calimojo]

And,  just to add to the nice post above.  Just wearing pants is not proof of true change away from the crazy they were raised in.  Lots of people seem to want to give Alyssa ? Bates credit for moving away from the cult and as of right now,  there is no evidence of that.  Wearing pants or modest length shorts doesn't prove much.  Not having another pregnancy again might suggest birth control, or might just be her body's natural spacing of kids.     As you said until the kids say they have moved away from the beliefs they were raised with, or until they are demonstrating with actions substantive enough to erase doubt,  we have to assume that most are likely still in the fold.  And why not?  After years of suffering with overcrowded homes, shaky finances and constantly pregnant moms,  they are now relatively on easy street.  The Bates, especially seemed to have some dire times financially, so now that the money is rolling in,  why would the grown kids leave it behind?  Even if one of the duggar kids left to write a tell-all, that is risky financially as it might only result in a short term cash prize, but not a sustainable income to support them long term without daddy's help

 

[fraurosena]

17 hours ago, eveandadam said:

(Snip)

I wonder if Jinger is just good at mimicking happiness or if she is really happy. Does she know the difference?

(snip)

 

 

 

But.. But... Don't you know? You're not supposed to know the difference.

You're supposed to save it!

[SassyPants]

1 hour ago, imokit said:

Gill & Kelly along with JB & M are the most deserving of judgement.   Facts we know about them

all 4 were:

1) raised semi normally, had access to mainstream education

2) chose as a couple to have as many children as possible, even when they could see that they were relying on older children to do a lot of parenting & when there was risk of existing children becoming motherless

3)  chose to restrict their children in terms of education & access to the world

4) chose to use & advertise harmful parenting practises which if not technically abusive, lend to abuse - Gill & Kelly recommend Ezzo, JB&M the pearls & M spoke about blanket training the howlers

5) chose to go on television opening thereby opening their families up to public scrutinity

6) its worth noting that since going on television, all 4 are impressively shy about discussing physical discipline, adding an extra layer of dishonesty to their show - it doesn't show the tears & harsh parenting behind the smiling well behaved children in a large family

 

JB & M - chose to cover up the sexual abuse perpetrated by their son against their daughters, they neglected to get their son appropriate help

These are all facts which can be substantiated.

In terms of the 2nd generation it is harder -

1) they've had less choice about their lifestyle

- its what they know

- if they leave they go to hell

- if they leave they lose contact with their siblings some of whom are small children who look up to them as parental figures

- - - - > these children may also be upset with worrying about their soles

- they don't have the education or life skills required to financially support themselves easily

 

In terms of facts about them and their beliefs

Josh and Anna - Josh has cheated, they seem to like having babies, they are currently homeschooling, get Jslave support

- we can suspect they continue JB&Ms lifestyle but we have no proof, they have not personally endorsed any parenting guides

- unknown where they currently live or where Josh works, though good evidence for JB support in both

 

Jill & Derrick - married, with one baby who will probably be 2 before any sibling is born, have spent time in SA as a couple away from JB & have actually had to parent their kid without familial support

- anything else is speculation, some of it more likely than others

Jessa and Ben - married, he works for JB and studies, fertile, have cute baby, get lots of help from Jslaves, living in Duggar provided house

- unknown what Ben will do with is education and how it will work out 

- the rest is speculation

Jinger & Jeremy - courting & engaged, JB approves, he has a job which doesn't involve JB supporting him, he's had some life experience & alcohol

Zach & Whitney - met in sonic (she had a job), converted conventional dating to courtship, he works as a police office & has attended police academy with women, have 2 cute babies

Erin & Chad - Chad has job, Erin has job which continued post marriage & baby 1, have fertility issues, Erin has discovered broccoli & vegetable and now makes small siblings eat them when they come to her house, have 2 babies & a puppy

Alyssa & John - live in Florida, near his parents, his dad is Republican politician, he does things to air conditioners, and together they clean things as a second job, have 1 cute baby who will probably be 2 before any sibling is born, have different clothing rules to her parents

Michael & Brandon - waited for education before marrying, Michael has graduation online secular community college, Brandon works for ATI, approaching 1 year anniversary without pregnancy announcement (reasons not shared).

 

I've deliberately been limited in the facts I've put down & restricted it to things I can substantiate.  A lot of things are pretty likely in terms of their beliefs, by omitting them I'm not saying they don't have them I'm saying we can't prove it.  All of these couples can change or evolve.

Other than Josh & Anna - none of them have faced the education issue, we don't know that they will home-school (and it could well be that they will change their minds or give it a go and then realise they're out of their depth and stop).  We don't know.

We don't know if or how much they will limit their children and their options.

We don't know how much physical discipline they're using.

We don't know if they will continue having children until children are raising children.

 

All of it is to varying degrees speculation.  We do know things about their parents.

 

To clarify I'm in no way suggesting that those children have left the fold or changed their fold, evidence to me would imply that they all to a degree still in, I'm saying that they aren't their parents and we don't know for a fact they have their parents beliefs until they start telling us.  Until they start saying they don't believe something or showing a clear sign of leaving we can assume, but that's different from the evidence we have against their parents.

Once they have a child and bring that child into their fold, all bets are off for me. None of those married, 2nd generation Bateses or Duggars [or their spouses], who have already procreated, are getting a free pass from me. They are infecting another generation with the BS.

[defraudedbychipendales]

That did not look or sound like a courtship proposal. That looked and sounded like a marriage proposal. Seems more real than at People HQ. 

And they were definitely talking in lovers code.

[Timetostoplurking]

7 hours ago, Timetostoplurking said:

I have to admit to being really turned off by the Dugger-likers that flair up occasionally on FJ.  Here is why:

-We don't know these people!!

-Although thier babies are cute, so are 99.99999% of all the babies I see on a regular basis.  (Of course mine are the cutest.  Ha)

-I don't have a favorite Duggar, cuz....you know....I'm not a fan....and I DONT KNOW THEM. Having a favorite implies that I like them....which I don't!!!

-I want the best for the Duggar kids, by that I mean, I want them to be happy in the same way I want all 20 somethings to be happy.  Everyone should have the opportunity to seek happiness.  They aren't special to me.

-my heart doesn't break for any of them.  Mostly because I DONT KNOW THEM!  

-I do find them entertaining because of the wierd twisted beliefs, bizarre rules and, well, just the shear quantity of them.  But I still hate what they stand for.  

-I have no problem with pregnancy watching.  They bring it on themselves.  After all this is a snark site.   Isn't it??  

 

Im not sure where I'm going with this post... I guess I just have a bit of time on my hands and a few random thoughts in my head.  Lol

 

-

And another thing......don't buy them any fricken presents!   For Pete's sake people, not for a wedding, or a baby, housewarming.....just no!!!

[Bim]

Honestly I think Jill's not going out because shes really missing all of her American luxuries. Theres not a lot of pinteresting and makeovers to do down there. 

Derrick on the other hand is more used to living the missionary life, or just a life not in the first world so he's doing fine. 

I live in Canada and spend 6 months working in Thailand (not missions, as part of a work experience for my Uni) and although I was working at a nice hotel and lived on a university campus it can be REALLY hard living in a completely different country. 

Not to mention Jchelle and JB haven't exactly prepared any of their kids of real hard work. All Jill's equip to do is pump out babies and repeat the same 6 sentences over and over again. Since Zika has taken away her first job shes a little obsolete now.

[Gillyweed]

1 hour ago, defraudedbychipendales said:

That did not look or sound like a courtship proposal. That looked and sounded like a marriage proposal. Seems more real than at People HQ. 

And they were definitely talking in lovers code.

I really wanted them to kiss. They kept looking at each others lips