When God Sends Your White Daughter a Black Husband

[smittykins]

6 hours ago, Coy Koi said:

What kind of grocery store doesn't have automatic doors?

Maybe an old-fashioned, mom-and-pop corner grocery?

(Other than that, I got nothin'.)

[backyard sylph]

6 hours ago, Jucifer said:

The cynic in me thinks she could be trying to do damage control in her social circle by way of this article.

Justifying her daughter's choice because Jesus...

What century are these people living in?  :/

I guess that gets closer to what was nagging at me. "God is making a special exception, so okay then." Something like that.

I might as well share that I have a certain amount of ire because my first husband was black and I am not. So my two oldest kids are biracial. They are in their mid and late 20s now. I remember my mother telling me her friends were praying for my first daughter to have "the good hair." I just thought they were dopey and out of touch, because incredibly, they actually meant well, like this mother, but it's kind of gross to think about now.

[polecat]

8 hours ago, Cleopatra7 said:

I've never understood the "but what about the children" argument when it comes to interracial marriage. I suppose it comes from the belief that white is white and black is black and never will the two meet, but all the author has to do is look at some of her black neighbors to see that this isn't true. The one drop rule really "defines blackness down" to the point where you can have blond hair and blue eyes and still be considered black in this country, so it's not like her future grandchildren will stick out in any sense. Obviously, I don't know how they will identify, but Americans tend not to like racial ambiguity (hence the one drop rule) and will probably be perceived by others as black unless they're incredibly light-skinned, which is well within the range of possibilities.

 

bbm: Hence the fact that there is an Ancestry.com commercial in which an actress talks about getting the question, "What are you?" on a daily basis, and no one even blinks at the unmitigated gall and grossness of such a question that the commercial is not only still on the air but regularly airs. (probably off-topic, but good god, that commercial makes me cringe so bad) AND that the actress found it such an issue that she got a DNA test to find out "what" she was. 

I do think the blogger makes one really important point here:

Quote

As you pray for your daughter to choose well, pray for your eyes to see clearly, too. Glenn moved from being a black man to beloved son when I saw his true identity as an image bearer of God, a brother in Christ, and a fellow heir to God’s promises.

 

I've read several articles lately about doctors not treating the pain of patients who don't look like them (ethnicity, sex, etc.) because they can't empathize with them. Othering people is dehumanizing them. This woman saw her daughter's future partner as a "Black man." She othered him. Once she started seeing him as a part of her family, she stopped othering him and started valuing him. 

But I also think that ties into this: 

Quote

Calling Uncle Fred a bigot because he doesn’t want your daughter in an interracial marriage dehumanizes him and doesn’t help your daughter either. Lovingly bear with others’ fears, concerns, and objections while firmly supporting your daughter and son-in-law. Don’t cut naysayers off if they aren’t undermining the marriage. Pray for them.

 

Calling Uncle Fred a bigot others him. It results in building, rather than tearing down, walls. What's the answer? Well, I certainly wouldn't allow Uncle Fred to be a douche around my daughter and son-in-law, so establishing firm boundaries would be vital right from the start. But cutting him off and name-calling just doesn't seem like it would be productive. I'd establish those boundaries, explain what was and was NOT acceptable, and then he could choose whether or not to abide by those boundaries -- but if he didn't, there'd be consequences. Namely, the end of our relationship. 

Watching this video really changed my mind about some things. Obviously, I think racists/religious abusers/etc. are NOT "the good guys," but I am trying to figure out what balance I can strike between treating others as people without legitimizing their bad beliefs (whether that's racism like Uncle Fred here or abusive religion, like the Duggars). (Note: this applies to family members only. I'm not sure I could treat random strangers kindly if they started being dillholes around me). 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EyejaVHwqMM

Anyway, ymmv, and I'm largely bouncing ideas out there and thinking out loud. This is a topic I expect to come up in my own life at some point given that I live in a diverse area and my kids go to diverse schools. 

 

[RosyDaisy]

The cynic in me thinks she could be trying to do damage control in her social circle by way of this article.

That's exactly what this bitch is doing. Bless her heart, she's more worried about her social standing than her daughter's happiness. Fuck her!

[princessmahina]

2 hours ago, polecat said:

bbm: Hence the fact that there is an Ancestry.com commercial in which an actress talks about getting the question, "What are you?" on a daily basis, and no one even blinks at the unmitigated gall and grossness of such a question that the commercial is not only still on the air but regularly airs. (probably off-topic, but good god, that commercial makes me cringe so bad) AND that the actress found it such an issue that she got a DNA test to find out "what" she was. 

I find this interesting because I "came of age" in a place where that's a common question and no one really gets offended (Hawaii). On the contrary, people liked to brag about how diverse their ethnicity was. I guess that kind of question depends on context, as well as the way it's asked. 

[Rachel333]

11 hours ago, Cleopatra7 said:

I've never understood the "but what about the children" argument when it comes to interracial marriage. I suppose it comes from the belief that white is white and black is black and never will the two meet, but all the author has to do is look at some of her black neighbors to see that this isn't true. The one drop rule really "defines blackness down" to the point where you can have blond hair and blue eyes and still be considered black in this country, so it's not like her future grandchildren will stick out in any sense. Obviously, I don't know how they will identify, but Americans tend not to like racial ambiguity (hence the one drop rule) and will probably be perceived by others as black unless they're incredibly light-skinned, which is well within the range of possibilities.

It's funny how that works. Rashida Jones is the daughter of Quincy Jones but people are often surprised to learn that she's half black, while I know people who have light skin, freckles, and red hair who identify as and are perceived as black.

[polecat]

26 minutes ago, princessmahina said:

I find this interesting because I "came of age" in a place where that's a common question and no one really gets offended (Hawaii). On the contrary, people liked to brag about how diverse their ethnicity was. I guess that kind of question depends on context, as well as the way it's asked. 

 

It could be that, too.

But for me (and this is jmo), it's no more my business how someone identifies ethnically than it is how someone identifies their gender. Can't tell if they are a man or woman? Black or white (or anything else)? Probably isn't my business anyway. Because if it WERE my business, I'd already know. 

[smittykins]

I was surprised to find out that Russell Martin(an MLB catcher who was with the Yankees a few years ago)is biracial, with a black father and white mother, the same as Derek Jeter.  I guess it just depends on which parent a person favors.

[hoipolloi]

5 hours ago, CoveredInBees said:

I need to ask a question and I don't want it to come across as ignorant. What does "die to her expectations" mean? I've never heard that phrase before.

The "die to" phrase is a very common one with fundies & probably originates with their interpretation of the Bible verses that exhort people to "die to self."

ETA: Here is an explanation on how that works.

[samurai_sarah]

7 hours ago, JillyO said:

No kidding. Calling your racist uncle out on his racism dehumanizes him? Fuck that noise. You know who is dehumanized in this scenario, and it's not uncle Fred.

Oh, I want to hug that post, take it home and bake cookies for it!

 

13 minutes ago, princessmahina said:

I find this interesting because I "came of age" in a place where that's a common question and no one really gets offended (Hawaii). On the contrary, people liked to brag about how diverse their ethnicity was. I guess that kind of question depends on context, as well as the way it's asked. 

Personally, I agree with you that it depends very much on context. I LOATHE that question, because of personal context. When people ask me that, I walk away.

I'm bi-racial, and grew up in lily-white back-of-beyond Germany. When I hear that question, my mind automatically goes back to all the times I've been called "Mischling" (mongrel). There is a seriously ugly history behind that word, which is specific to German history, and personal history. Best for all parties involved, if I just walk away.

For my particular context, which is obviously not Hawai'ian, there are better ways of asking. I don't mind being asked politely, but due to historical and personal context, I am not okay with being asked "what are you".

Maybe that would be different, had I grown up in Hawai'i, but it's a bit late for finding out now.

 

[apandaaries]

59 minutes ago, princessmahina said:

I find this interesting because I "came of age" in a place where that's a common question and no one really gets offended (Hawaii). On the contrary, people liked to brag about how diverse their ethnicity was. I guess that kind of question depends on context, as well as the way it's asked. 

It's not a normal question to ask in CA, but I have heard it quite often regarding my racially ambiguous daughter.  Like @samurai_sarah, that question is filled with negative connotations for me.  Now that she's older, she deals with it herself on a regular basis.  Other kids will often think she is somewhat Black, or Mexican, or (insert favorite bias here).  Interestingly, she is frequently asked if she is Hawaiian, including by Hawaiian people.  She seems to laugh it off now, especially since most people who ask lately are kids her age.  

[louisa05]

I've seen responses to interracial relationships in my own family. We are in the Midwest, not the South. 

My cousin is adopted and is Native American (she was born and adopted 1.5 yrs prior to the Native American Child Welfare Act). My aunt and uncle stubbornly tried to insist that she was white for her entire childhood. The negative impact this had on her is the best argument I have ever seen for the necessity of the legislation that came 1.5 yrs after her birth. She got pregnant at 16 by an African-American man. She subsequently had two more children, both fathered my African-Americans. My aunt and uncle's response has been less than ideal. They very much favor their two grandchildren born to their (also adopted) white son and his blue eyed, blond wife. They constantly lament the problems that being non-white present to their other three grandchildren (not legitimate concerns about racism rather that the kids are somehow inherently inferior). When I got fed up with my aunt once and pointed out that no matter who their fathers had been, their daughter's children would never have been white as she is not, my aunt said that if they had white fathers "people wouldn't really notice; we were able to tell people (daughter) was white, after all". 

Then there is my in-law's response to their crackpot daughter's current boyfriend. He is nearly 15 years younger than her, has the maturity of a 15 year old, has never held a job and never wants to, can't function as an adult, and is extremely controlling to sister-in-law. He can't call a doctor's office and make his own appointment or any other adult task like that--either his mommy does it for him or SiL has to. He absolutely refuses to work. He picks out SiL's clothes (one extremely hot day last summer at a family event, she was wearing a denim jacket the entire time that he told her not to take off because it "tied the outfit together"). He has forced her to cut her business's hours and services to the point that she can barely pay her mortgage or support the two of them because if she is working, she is not available to him whenever he wants her to be. He lies to her constantly and tells other people that he is not actually in a relationship. My in-laws know all of these things. And what problem do they constantly tell us there is with the relationship? His race. Because he is black and she is white. At her age, the possibility of children is pretty remote and she doesn't seem to want them (plus her birth control has varied from carrot pills to withdrawal over the years--she over shares which is why I know this--so I suspect she may have fertility issues or she would have been pregnant at some point before now), so it isn't potential grandchildren--it is just that he is not white. My husband has said to them multiple times that this guy's immaturity and controlling behavior is the problem not the color of his skin and they just argue that it is indeed his skin that is the issue. 

[polecat]

2 hours ago, RosyDaisy said:

That's exactly what this bitch is doing. Bless her heart, she's more worried about her social standing than her daughter's happiness. Fuck her!

 

Well, gross, if that's the case. Snifty coot.

[apandaaries]

@louisa05, your stories about your family are always the craziest.  The aunt seriously thought they were passing off a Native American adopted daughter as "white"?   And that this was somehow beneficial for her? And for them? And it seems that she must have also assumed that any "racial inferiority" was what, not present when they pretended she was white?  They sound clueless enough to have no idea how their BS has impacted and is impacting those (now grown)  kids and grandkids.  Then again, it sounds like they got it from your mother and father in law.  

I have no idea how you endure them, but they certainly provide many stories.  

[louisa05]

20 minutes ago, amandaaries said:

@louisa05, your stories about your family are always the craziest.  The aunt seriously thought they were passing off a Native American adopted daughter as "white"?   And that this was somehow beneficial for her? And for them? And it seems that she must have also assumed that any "racial inferiority" was what, not present when they pretended she was white?  They sound clueless enough to have no idea how their BS has impacted and is impacting those (now grown)  kids and grandkids.  Then again, it sounds like they got it from your mother and father in law.  

I have no idea how you endure them, but they certainly provide many stories.  

My aunt and her alcoholic asshole husband have a lot of issues. 

My in-laws, on the other hand, are more or less sheltered and naive. They grew up in a tiny not only racially but ethnically and religiously homogenous town (population 46 today, 70 in 1960--everyone there is Polish and Catholic). They also lack any intellectual curiosity about anything. The lack of intellectual curiosity combined with sheltered upbringings that lacked much exposure to anything or anyone beyond their tiny hometown combined is at fault for their attitudes. Father-in-law, for example, is fascinated by the oddest things--SiL's boyfriend fancies himself an artist. He has a bit of talent, but no training and no voice/point of view. But FiL is totally taken by his art simply because he can sketch a copy of a picture. My FiL has been so sheltered and has never been exposed to art so he thinks that is the greatest artistic talent in the world. And I'm constantly saying--hey, my friend who works in IT can do that. My nephew could do it by age 10 or so. My brother could if he picked up a sketch pad again. That ability does not make somebody Michelangelo or Picasso. 

Of his immediate family, my husband is the only one who reads, seeks out new experiences, attempts to understand new things...yet, since his sister squeaked out a bachelor's degree and uses big words (usually incorrectly), she is considered the smart one. Mr.05 only has an associate's degree and doesn't tell them he is smart all the time. 

[Jucifer]

This has been a serious and very interesting  thread, but did anyone else burst into laughter reading the title of the mother's article?

When God Sends Your White Daughter a Black Husband

You can't write this stuff...

 

[apandaaries]

/profile/15834-louisa05/" rel="">@louisa05 I'm glad you got the outlier in the family. I always feel odd about intentionally-sheltered people.  Like, why?  It's a huge world with so many exciting things--why not explore? Why so afraid?  But when they use their sheltered status to be racist (like blaming any and all relationship issues on skin color, not personality issues), I draw a line.

 I have heard of the parents of friends struggling with interracial relationships, and usually they try to understand their offspring and the relationship.  For example, I have a white  friend from Missouri  who has dated almost a rainbow at this point, but her dad kind of freaked out when she had a Black boyfriend in high school.  He was genuinely afraid and thought she might be in danger, but when he realized she was safe and happy, he did his best to accept that.  Years later, when she was in a different relationship in another state but again with a Black man, her dad was better, but still wary.  It seems that overcoming a lifetime of prejudice (even if covert -- I'm not talking about cross-burning KKK members) is really hard, but possible.  That friend is also uber-liberal and would not hesitate to confront her father about such things, so he had to learn or risk getting kicked out of her life.  

This discussion reminds me of all the conservative voters out there who suddenly become pro-LGBQTIA+ after discovering one of their children is rainbow...except that this is about interracial marriages in the 20-teens.   Change can seem so glacially slow sometimes.   

**i seem to be using "rainbow" in two different ways here, but I hope it's clear to any and all readers.

[louisa05]

1 hour ago, amandaaries said:

 

/profile/15834-louisa05/" rel="">@louisa05 I'm glad you got the outlier in the family. I always feel odd about intentionally-sheltered people.  Like, why?  It's a huge world with so many exciting things--why not explore? Why so afraid?  But when they use their sheltered status to be racist (like blaming any and all relationship issues on skin color, not personality issues), I draw a line.

 

 I have heard of the parents of friends struggling with interracial relationships, and usually they try to understand their offspring and the relationship.  For example, I have a white  friend from Missouri  who has dated almost a rainbow at this point, but her dad kind of freaked out when she had a Black boyfriend in high school.  He was genuinely afraid and thought she might be in danger, but when he realized she was safe and happy, he did his best to accept that.  Years later, when she was in a different relationship in another state but again with a Black man, her dad was better, but still wary.  It seems that overcoming a lifetime of prejudice (even if covert -- I'm not talking about cross-burning KKK members) is really hard, but possible.  That friend is also uber-liberal and would not hesitate to confront her father about such things, so he had to learn or risk getting kicked out of her life.  

 

This discussion reminds me of all the conservative voters out there who suddenly become pro-LGBQTIA+ after discovering one of their children is rainbow...except that this is about interracial marriages in the 20-teens.   Change can seem so glacially slow sometimes.   

**i seem to be using "rainbow" in two different ways here, but I hope it's clear to any and all readers.

I'm not sure I'm entirely clear...my in-laws don't blame the problems in this relationship on the kid's race. They don't actually see the problems I listed as problems. Those things are not issues for them. They don't see the generation spanning age difference as a problem or the kid's lack of maturity or ability to be an adult. Nor do they see his controlling, demanding behavior as an actual problem. If you asked them if this relationship is problematic, they would tell you it is for only the reason of his race. My MiL actually says that if he were white, everything would be great. She actually thinks there is nothing wrong with the way he treats SiL and thinks that his immaturity and inability to manage adult life (he has no bank account and doesn't understand why he would need one, he cannot manage money, he cannot do routine tasks like make appointments or pay bills) is a quirk resulting from his mother doing too much for him. Both of them think that his race is some deep impediment to them living happily as a couple because it just is, because maybe they will be treated badly or some vague reasons. When my husband and I point out that the kid and SiL are ill matched in every other way and having screaming fights about what music to listen to in the car on a long trip (SiL told us this quite casually, implying that all couples do this) is not a healthy relationship and that has nothing to do with race--my in-laws cannot process that. One response we've got is "Well, (daughter) always fights with the people she dates". And she does, but that doesn't make those kinds of fights healthy or okay. 

They are nice, kind people who happen to have absorbed the kind of casual and unintentional racism that is so common in this country when you get out into the less diverse parts of it--they have never known anyone who is not white more than in passing. They automatically consider this kid something of an "other" because their lives have never put them in close relationships of any kind with anyone who is not the same as them. They are not blatantly racist. They find Trump's racism appalling. They voted against a racist city ordinance about immigration because they found it abhorrent. But their personal attitude here seems normal to them. Much like the woman who wrote this blog. They are decent and kind to this kid (and he really is a kid, Lord help us, sometimes he acts like he is about 10). But they quietly disapprove for the absolute wrong reason.

And that is the kind of racism that we should be scared to death of...frankly. I'm not excusing them, but they are not the only people I've encountered in the rural and small town Midwest who are this way. The private school I taught at in the city they live in (population about 20,000) had two black students, three Latino students and a handful of Asian exchange students in the entire ten years I taught there. Those kids, much like my in-laws, never really encountered people who were not white, middle class or above and marginally Christian. That is a life that breeds this kind of quiet unintentional racism. You can't really understand people you have never encountered at all and the racism/prejudices inherent in our society can become much more internalized if you can't connect real people to those groups. 

[CyborgKin]

11 hours ago, Fundie Bunny said:

What? I din't know people had to be separated by their colours. But that one drop mentality is killing me. Probably everyone has a black great great grandma or a white super aunt or something. I've seen white people with darker skin than some black people. Speaking from a purely scientific point of view, choosing races according to skin colour is just plain dumb. And even more in the US, a country where everyone is so mixed.

(I don't know if this post comes across as ''weird'', if it does, please, tell me)

That's about how I see it: sometimes I stumble into internet conversation about an actor who is - unexpectedly to me - of a 'minority race', but to my eyes is lighter skinned than plenty of 'white' australians with a god suntan.  Seems like a weird way to categorize. Plus 'white' is quite a misnomer.

And 'white' sure isn't a united group either: anti-Irish prejudice is just one example.  Historically there have been many 'wrong kinds of white'.  Ugh.  It's horrible how humans mistreat each other.

[lawfulevil]

When I was a teenager parts of my family would flip out if I dated a boy who was the wrong kind of white- they didn't approve of Italian-descended or Irish-descended people. Needless to say they don't know much about my adult life. Maybe I should be more open about it, the shock might kill them... but a bucket of soapy water might do the job too.

[Granwych]

13 hours ago, Fundie Bunny said:

What? I din't know people had to be separated by their colours. But that one drop mentality is killing me. Probably everyone has a black great great grandma or a white super aunt or something. I've seen white people with darker skin than some black people. Speaking from a purely scientific point of view, choosing races according to skin colour is just plain dumb. And even more in the US, a country where everyone is so mixed.

(I don't know if this post comes across as ''weird'', if it does, please, tell me)

Years ago, I spoke with someone at a regional INS office about how to determine which "race" box should be checked in an application form for something or other.  The rep told me that I could check whatever I wanted.  Of course, this was before the Rachel Volezal (or whatever her name is) kerfuffle.

[feministxtian]

But then again my MIL had a heart attack when she found out I am Latina...I look white, sound white (with a southern accent), born and raised in the USA...but...the mother was Cuban...she gave my h shit about why did he leave his "white" gf for me. 

[apandaaries]

4 hours ago, louisa05 said:

I'm not sure I'm entirely clear...my in-laws don't blame the problems in this relationship on the kid's race. They don't actually see the problems I listed as problems. <snip>

My MiL actually says that if he were white, everything would be great. She actually thinks there is nothing wrong with the way he treats SiL and thinks that his immaturity and inability to manage adult life (he has no bank account and doesn't understand why he would need one, he cannot manage money, he cannot do routine tasks like make appointments or pay bills) is a quirk resulting from his mother doing too much for him. Both of them think that his race is some deep impediment to them living happily as a couple because it just is, because maybe they will be treated badly or some vague reasons. When my husband and I point out that the kid and SiL are ill matched in every other way and having screaming fights about what music to listen to in the car on a long trip (SiL told us this quite casually, implying that all couples do this) is not a healthy relationship and that has nothing to do with race--my in-laws cannot process that. One response we've got is "Well, (daughter) always fights with the people she dates". And she does, but that doesn't make those kinds of fights healthy or okay. 

<snip>

Part II:

And that is the kind of racism that we should be scared to death of...frankly. I'm not excusing them, but they are not the only people I've encountered in the rural and small town Midwest who are this way. The private school I taught at in the city they live in (population about 20,000) had two black students, three Latino students and a handful of Asian exchange students in the entire ten years I taught there. Those kids, much like my in-laws, never really encountered people who were not white, middle class or above and marginally Christian. That is a life that breeds this kind of quiet unintentional racism. You can't really understand people you have never encountered at all and the racism/prejudices inherent in our society can become much more internalized if you can't connect real people to those groups. 

So for the first part, I don't quite  understand, I guess.  They don't blame the problems on his race, but do think that it's a deep impediment to the relationship...and they don't quite understand what the issues are in that relationship.

For Part II, I totally agree that that kind of quiet, closed off racism is one of the worst.  People aren't exposed to others and don't seek them out, so they never connect outside their small social sphere.  That's definitely dangerous.

[louisa05]

22 minutes ago, amandaaries said:

So for the first part, I don't quite  understand, I guess.  They don't blame the problems on his race, but do think that it's a deep impediment to the relationship...and they don't quite understand what the issues are in that relationship.

For Part II, I totally agree that that kind of quiet, closed off racism is one of the worst.  People aren't exposed to others and don't seek them out, so they never connect outside their small social sphere.  That's definitely dangerous.

It's really not that complicated. My husband and I look at this relationship, his sister's longest one in years, and see a ton of dysfunction most of which is due to the two of them being terribly mismatched in age, life goals, and general interests plus his controlling behavior and complete immaturity. But when we have a conversation with his parents, they don't see any of those things as being an issue at all. They see one issue: race. They don't blame those other issues on race, because they don't see those other issues as problems or dysfunction. They can't look past the race issue to see any other problem. So we say--age difference and dysfunction and they answer, "those are things you can deal with" or "he'll grow up" (weird thing to have to say about your 40 year old daughter's significant other!) while race can't be changed. 

I'm not sure you can entirely blame people who don't look past that small social sphere when it is the only one available to them. Rural/small town Midwest tends to be homogenous. You can blame them for the casual racism, but it is not  their fault that their social sphere is small and homogenous. As a teacher in those settings, I tried to make students at least think beyond that and consider the diversity of the larger world. But so many of my students never left their hometown, so they were never going to really live in that world. 

[Geechee Girl]

11 hours ago, RosyDaisy said:

That's exactly what this bitch is doing. Bless her heart, she's more worried about her social standing than her daughter's happiness. Fuck her!

I'm a day late and a dollar short. The post has been removed. I think y'all are on the right track. I suspect she doesn't want to be talked about behind her back with "Why wasn't her daughter raised right?" Dating outside the in-group still is a major taboo. I've been told this was the strict rule of east Asian families. My Japanese, Chinese, and Korean friends were only allowed to marry someone of their kind. I found it ironic how marrying white was A-okay. There was a saying when I was coming up, "Don't bring 'em home if they can't use your comb."