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New Mexico mother and son may face prison for incestuous relationship


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I am so remarkably unimpressed that this woman would give up her 9 other children in order to hook up with her one son.

The reason I'm not comfortable with it becoming legal within a certain range of family members is, of course, the health issues mentioned up thread.

But this woman makes it even worse by abandoning other children who were actively depending on her to- curtly- get laid (son or not).

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It's not just the thinking that acting on the genetic sexual attraction or being willing to give up custody of her other children that makes me wonder about the mental health of the mother, but also the fact that they wanted to bring attention to it and started a crowd funding campaign to help them with costs to defend it because they think the public will support them.  I can't think of anyone I know that would support this, let alone support them financially.

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7 hours ago, Diana said:

So taking away the kids from her unless you prove she is not raising the kids properly would only be a way to punish her because you find inmoral that she is fucking her biological son. 

@Fundie Bunny ain't the only one who finds this shit immoral and sick and nasty. I'm a good mom to my other kids, so what that I'm fucking their older brother? Hell no.  Sorry, I cannot buy what you are selling, Diana. 

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I always have a hard time foming an opinion on things like this. On the one hand, yes, they're adults, and should be allowed to do whatever they want with their bodies. I see no reason why the incest taboo should apply in those rare cases where the couple don't really have a parent-child relationship and meet as adults. On the other hand, in the real world of people rather than ideas* I think it's a really bad idea to make it legal. 

 

*I'm practically Plato. And you thought high school philosophy was a waste of time!

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Yeah, they are adults and all of that. It is still nasty. This was one of the easier things for me to form an opinion on. In a case like this, adult or not, the parent has the power. At least in a Flowers in the Attic situation there is no power imbalance. That totally squicked me out too. How about being friends if you meet your long lost child, not their lover! That's just all kinds of fucked up.

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1 hour ago, akinom said:

I always have a hard time foming an opinion on things like this. On the one hand, yes, they're adults, and should be allowed to do whatever they want with their bodies. I see no reason why the incest taboo should apply in those rare cases where the couple don't really have a parent-child relationship and meet as adults. On the other hand, in the real world of people rather than ideas* I think it's a really bad idea to make it legal. 

 

*I'm practically Plato. And you thought high school philosophy was a waste of time!

I agree. I'm also not really comfortable with telling people they can't have sex / be in a relationship because of the possibility of health problems for any kids they may have. For me, it's a slippery slope to eugenics. We don't prevent people who have genetic disorders from reproducing. Not even if they basically have a 100% chance of passing their disorder on to their child. So why is it different for people who are related?

That said, in reality, I find this relationship icky, and fucked up, and all kinds of wrong. I just don't know that those feelings on my part should be grounds for a law. I definitely agree with those that say they need therapy much more than prison.

Also, she is a shitty, horrible mother for being willing to leave her eight children, who depend on her, in order to be with a guy. Whether that guy is her son or not is not even the relevant part here. Fuck that selfish asshole of a person.

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About a week ago, I was watching a documentary on PBS about Koko, the gorilla who communicates in sign language. Turns out, even gorillas have an incest taboo! In Koko's case, she and the male gorilla who was raised alongside her would not mate because they regarded each other as siblings, even though they were not.

 

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I saw the koko documentary too--and it did not talk about Koko's alleged obsession w/ nipples which I read about elsewhere, but which somehow feels germane to this discussion, so now I"m going to see if I can find a link to whatever it was I read.  

(Because the discussion of whether sexual harassment is an issue when the gorilla in your care wants you to flash her is less disturbing than this family's issues.)

not the link I'm looking for:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4280961.stm

http://www.eastbaytimes.com/oaklandtribune/localnews/ci_3264527

But, interesting no?

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I'm really not concerned about whether the babies they may or may not have together may or may not have health problems. Taking that risk is their choice. 

I am significantly worried about the power dynamic, however. A parent/child dynamic does not make for an equal romantic partnership. Regardless of whether the parent raised the child, the expectations simply are not the same as those held by friends or strangers. It makes the consent boundaries a bit too blurry for me to be okay with.

I am significantly worried that normalizing this relationship also normalizes sexual grooming of a child by a parent as long as the parent doesn't physically act on it till the child is eighteen. 

Regarding the effect on the mother's other children - unfortunately, parents choose their partners over their children all the time. It's not noble. Parenting your children needs to come before your love life. Going to jail over having sex with her adult son may make her feel like a romantic heroine, but reality is she's choosing a man over her children, and it's no more admirable for her than for anyone else who puts their kids last.

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2 hours ago, Mercer said:

I am significantly worried that normalizing this relationship also normalizes sexual grooming of a child by a parent as long as the parent doesn't physically act on it till the child is eighteen. 

I'm right here with you. If this mother is allowed to keep her children and son-lover, then they all need family, couple, and individual therapy. My main concern is the mother & son are modeling an alternative relationship as normal. Children learn from their surroundings. My fear is one or more of the eight will attempt a romantic relationship with a sibling. The mother has the most authority and influence in this mess.

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2 hours ago, Geechee Girl said:

I'm right here with you. If this mother is allowed to keep her children and son-lover, then they all need family, couple, and individual therapy. My main concern is the mother & son are modeling an alternative relationship as normal. Children learn from their surroundings. My fear is one or more of the eight will attempt a romantic relationship with a sibling. The mother has the most authority and influence in this mess.

I'd want those other eight kids in counselling anyway, because there's just no possible way at this point that, at least the older ones (I'm not sure on their ages) would have heard that she was willing to give them up so she could be their brother's lover.  How much would that screw with your head, to think "my mom doesn't love me enough to want me, she just wants this guy who apparently is my brother but hasn't ever been around.  Why am I not good enough for her to want me?"  (At least, that's how I'd imagine a couple of different scenarios in their heads.)

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So it seems that there is no evidence that genetic sexual attraction actually exists: 

http://www.salon.com/2016/08/16/debunking-genetic-sexual-attraction-incest-by-any-other-name-is-still-incest/

Not the best source in the world, granted, but it seems significant that this author could find no authoritative source in the world of psychology, sociology or any other discipline that has done any research or has any confirmation that genetic sexual attraction is legitimate. 

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Being an adoptee, I have reunited with many biological family members, including a birth parent and a few half siblings. When you first are getting to know someone like that, it's exciting and exhilarating. It's unique. While I never experienced any emotions that were out of the ordinary, I could see how someone with an already unhealthy mindset could take those emotions and interpret it as romantic. Here you are, trying to learn a whole life history about someone else (like you would a potential partner) etc. There are aspects that cross over. They probably don't have a level of understanding that those emotions are normal, and not sexual. That's my guess. 

As far as her being willing to ditch her other kids for her lover, well, that I have no understanding of. That's shitty, no matter how damaged of a person you are. 

They seem like they like the attention. I mostly feel bad for her kids. They are the ones being damaged by this. 

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Reading that article made me queasy.  What a selfish, deluded woman giving up her other children to have sex with her son.  :my_angry: :my_sick:

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Life is not a Heinlein novel. Incest is not genetically or mentally healthy.  Consenting adults doing things behind closed doors? Nope. They made this hugely public and 'Mom' has made it clear that her sex partner is more important than her other children. I'm aghast that her ex is supportive. (Perhaps he is hoping to get custody of his two kids once his baby mama is in prison?)

Are they going to suddenly 'Find God', repent, then write a motivational book? 

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  • 2 weeks later...

This is so many levels of horrifying. I have heard the argument before from fundies I went to school with that if we "allow" gay couples to be treated the same as anyone else then incest will eventually be considered acceptable. I think it's a totally backwards point of view, there is a massive difference between the two things.

 

I actually heard recently that this isn't an uuncommon thing for adopted kids reunited with birth parents to experience but surely most people would be able to understand that it's not OK to have a sexual relationship with a parent. Everything about this is awful and I hope those remaining kids get all the help they will need to deal with this. The fact that their mother is willing to abandon them to continue such an inappropriate relationship is heartbreaking.

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On August 14, 2016 at 11:26 PM, akinom said:

I always have a hard time foming an opinion on things like this. On the one hand, yes, they're adults, and should be allowed to do whatever they want with their bodies. I see no reason why the incest taboo should apply in those rare cases where the couple don't really have a parent-child relationship and meet as adults. On the other hand, in the real world of people rather than ideas* I think it's a really bad idea to make it legal. 

 

*I'm practically Plato. And you thought high school philosophy was a waste of time!

       It sounds reasonable in theory but I just don't see there not being a power imbalance. You are meeting a long lost parent I imagine there are some expectations involved. 

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On 8/16/2016 at 2:10 PM, louisa05 said:

So it seems that there is no evidence that genetic sexual attraction actually exists: 

http://www.salon.com/2016/08/16/debunking-genetic-sexual-attraction-incest-by-any-other-name-is-still-incest/

Not the best source in the world, granted, but it seems significant that this author could find no authoritative source in the world of psychology, sociology or any other discipline that has done any research or has any confirmation that genetic sexual attraction is legitimate. 

I have a feeling that very, very few researchers have ever considered studying this phenomena, and if any have, then they've run into trouble gathering funding.  Until fairly recently, most adoptions were closed, and few people would ever reconnect with their biological relatives.  I've read a lot of weird stuff online, but it was only a few years ago that I ever heard the term Genetic Sexual Attraction.  I'm not adopted and have never had anything like this experience, but that doesn't mean I'm going to disregard the reported experiences of some adoptees and their genetic parents (or other relatives, I guess -- though the accounts I've read usually involve parent-offspring incest).  From what I can determine, it seems like there is some extra element of attraction and excitement involved, something generally not otherwise experienced in the lives of these people.  There's this interview from Jezebel: http://jezebel.com/sexual-intensity-like-nothing-else-a-chat-with-a-woman-1686112361

Then there was that bizarre event in Central Park, where a young woman was likely assaulted, but before that had apparently been having sex with her biological father, with whom she'd recently reconnected.  So very, very strange: http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/brooklyn/charges-dropped-5-accused-brooklyn-gang-rape-article-1.2543019

There are other events I've read about here and there...enough to make me suspect that there is some truth to GSA, however discomfiting an idea that may be.  The lack of research reminds me of the difficulties researchers used to have in finding people who were pedophiles, but hadn't offended and were trying NOT to do so.  Without the Internet, they had no way of connecting with those men.  My Google-fu is failing me at the moment, but I can recall an article about a guy who started a private online forum to try to control his urges; he allowed others to join so long as they promised not to abuse a child.  They were trying to figure out how NOT give into their urges, and after an article was published, he and the others were able to get in touch with a NYU or Columbia U researcher who'd never been able to study pedophiles who had NOT offended.  AFAIK, nothing has yet been published, but at least researchers can access inactive pedophiles for studies now.  I have a feeling we will eventually see the same occurrence with GSA.

Hopefully some judge will order counseling for these two very confused individuals.  They need some help sorting through very complicated emotions and feelings.  Neither has had an easy path, but this relationship and its accompanying media storm isn't conducive to improving one's quality of life, either. 

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3 hours ago, amandaaries said:

I have a feeling that very, very few researchers have ever considered studying this phenomena, and if any have, then they've run into trouble gathering funding.  Until fairly recently, most adoptions were closed, and few people would ever reconnect with their biological relatives.  I've read a lot of weird stuff online, but it was only a few years ago that I ever heard the term Genetic Sexual Attraction.  I'm not adopted and have never had anything like this experience, but that doesn't mean I'm going to disregard the reported experiences of some adoptees and their genetic parents (or other relatives, I guess -- though the accounts I've read usually involve parent-offspring incest).  From what I can determine, it seems like there is some extra element of attraction and excitement involved, something generally not otherwise experienced in the lives of these people.  There's this interview from Jezebel: http://jezebel.com/sexual-intensity-like-nothing-else-a-chat-with-a-woman-1686112361

Then there was that bizarre event in Central Park, where a young woman was likely assaulted, but before that had apparently been having sex with her biological father, with whom she'd recently reconnected.  So very, very strange: http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/brooklyn/charges-dropped-5-accused-brooklyn-gang-rape-article-1.2543019

There are other events I've read about here and there...enough to make me suspect that there is some truth to GSA, however discomfiting an idea that may be.  The lack of research reminds me of the difficulties researchers used to have in finding people who were pedophiles, but hadn't offended and were trying NOT to do so.  Without the Internet, they had no way of connecting with those men.  My Google-fu is failing me at the moment, but I can recall an article about a guy who started a private online forum to try to control his urges; he allowed others to join so long as they promised not to abuse a child.  They were trying to figure out how NOT give into their urges, and after an article was published, he and the others were able to get in touch with a NYU or Columbia U researcher who'd never been able to study pedophiles who had NOT offended.  AFAIK, nothing has yet been published, but at least researchers can access inactive pedophiles for studies now.  I have a feeling we will eventually see the same occurrence with GSA.

Hopefully some judge will order counseling for these two very confused individuals.  They need some help sorting through very complicated emotions and feelings.  Neither has had an easy path, but this relationship and its accompanying media storm isn't conducive to improving one's quality of life, either. 

      I know a woman who must be in her sixties now. She gave a baby up for adoption while she was in college. Years later it was discovered he was engaged to her niece. When her mom found out he was adopted she asked him if he knew his birth mother, he didn't, but his birthday and town he was born in sent a red flag.crazy stuff.

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