Josh Harris rethinks his approach to courtship

[BobTheWalrus]

On 11/07/2016 at 2:07 PM, LittleSpouseOnThePrairie said:

I went to a big public college and met a lot of fantastic guys, but every time I learned that they weren't virgins, like I was at the time, I wrote them off because based on the book's example they couldn't have been "the one."

See, I agree that this book has been the cause of a lot of problems.  But this issue is a complete misreading of the book.  His own story is that his wife wasn't a virgin, and she was still "the one" for him.  In fact an important part of his testimony in this book is that the "perfect" (virginal, homeschooled etc etc) girl that he had his eye on wasn't God's choice.  And that while he was upset, he loved her and stuck with her - there's a whole bit about him taking someone's advice that if he goes ahead he can't ever hold her past against her. And the bit where he has to amend his plan of asking her father's permission to marry, because her father wasn't saved or interested in controlling his daughter's life.

Also I remember way too much about this book given how long it's been since I read it!

Edit: I've just realised that I am in fact thinking of the follow up book, Boy Meets Girl, which was about his actual experiences of courting and getting married.  Apologies!  That one was slightly better given that he had actually experienced what he was talking/writing about. I read that one first, and then really didn't like IKDG because it was so much more legalistic.  The testimony about his wife is in the second book. Sorry!

[BobTheWalrus]

On 14/07/2016 at 4:49 AM, hoipolloi said:

When he withdraws the book(s) from sale, I'll believe he regrets it all.

Otherwise, 

I don't think he regrets the book.  All the apologies and statements I've seen from him on this express regret that people have misinterpreted it, or misused it as some kind of dogma. No regrets about having written it though.  To be honest, I sort of agree with that view.  In my view the blame is not entirely on him, although where there are problematic parts of the book he should own responsibility for them.  The bigger problem was that so many parents and church leaders promoted it as almost on a level with scripture when it came to dating, rather than saying, "Here's a book which you may find helpful; see what you think". 

Edit: as I said above, I've just realised I was thinking about his follow up book, Boy Meets Girl.  I have much stronger views about IKDG - I think there's a lot more to apologise for in that one, as it was much more narrow and dogmatic.

[hoipolloi]

All the apologies and statements I've seen from him on this express regret that people have misinterpreted it, or misused it as some kind of dogma. No regrets about having written it though.

In other words, people who were seriously harmed by Harris's shite were doing it wrong.

Bullshit.

Until he issues an unequivocal apology for and retraction of the loathsome things he wrote about & pushed on people for years -- not to mention making beaucoup $$$ off it all -- Harris is nothing but a liar and this is only a PR scam.

[formergothardite]

Didn't he release Boy Meets Girl again 2010ish so he could take out the couples he used as courtship examples who ended up divorced? And it wasn't like he said something about how courtship can fail just as much as dating, he just pulled the stories. I could be getting parts of that, wrong, though. I remember reading about it at the time. 

I remember reading somewhere where people complained about him using their stories in that book without permission. He changed names and was vague, but left enough info that people who knew the people quickly figured out who Joshua was talking about. 

 

[hoipolloi]

Didn't he release Boy Meets Girl again 2010ish so he could take out the couples he used as courtship examples who ended up divorced? And it wasn't like he said something about how courtship can fail just as much as dating, he just pulled the stories. I could be getting parts of that, wrong, though. I remember reading about it at the time. 

Yes, he did do that. On Tapatalk so can't search/copy/paste at all but one of the featured couples whose marriage fell apart included the daughter of a Sovereign Grace bigwig (not Mahaney).

The failed marriage and Josh Harris' "revision" of BMG were discussed on the SGM Survivors website. IIRC, the ex-husband weighed in there too & said that the SGM cult made the divorce process much more tortured & scarring.

Josh Harris is a lying asshole.

[hoipolloi]

Here is Part I of the ex-husband's account & here is Part II.

Here's his comment about being included in BMG:

Quote

 

Oh, it’s really okay that Josh uses people’s personal stories without asking because remember he’s “caring for people’s souls” and shepherding the sheep—he know’s what best for them. Everyone should be grateful for the immense privilege of having him share your personal stories to the world. Never mind that he get’s rich in the process… he’s doing the work of God.

Full disclosure: I was aware that my story would be published, but I wasn’t asked if my real name could be used or not. I do remember being somewhat jealous of those who had code names in the book. And at that time, I thought I must be doing something right if Josh is willing to write about it in a book… augh!

 

 

[formergothardite]

That is a very sad story. If Josh is going to actually be honest, he needs(and needed to) address the fact that courtship can create very bad relationships too. Courtship doesn't prevent divorce, it doesn't prevent unhappy marriages. But then, is whole brand is sort of built around courtship not being like dating. 

[BobTheWalrus]

15 hours ago, hoipolloi said:

Yes, he did do that. On Tapatalk so can't search/copy/paste at all but one of the featured couples whose marriage fell apart included the daughter of a Sovereign Grace bigwig (not Mahaney).

The failed marriage and Josh Harris' "revision" of BMG were discussed on the SGM Survivors website. IIRC, the ex-husband weighed in there too & said that the SGM cult made the divorce process much more tortured & scarring.

Josh Harris is a lying asshole.

yes, wasn't it Megan Kauflin?  Her marriage fell apart after 5 kids if I remember rightly, and there was a lot of blogging back and forth about who had instigated it and who was at fault. And didn't he move to the UK?

[LittleSpouseOnThePrairie]

@BobTheWalrus, in the Christian circles I ran with, IKDG was the standard protocol, further backed by the verse in the bible about not being unequally yoked as it might apply in sexual experience. Boy meets Girl was considered an afterthought and generally disregarded because it somewhat contradicted the standards or challenged "rules" that we had all established for ourselves...

What I'm still trying to understand is how his books got so popular in the first place. It's all just a gimmick really, in the same way diet fad books and workout DVDs claim that if you follow their simple plan, you'll get your desired results. For some reason everyone I knew was just eating up what Harris had to say like it was the best damn thing ever.

I absolutely agree with @formergothardite that marriages that began with courtship aren't guaranteed to be divorce-proof just because of the way they began. There  is so much more to life partnership than can be dictated by how you initiate said partnership.

I'm going a step further here, I think a book that deliberately included the divorces would actually be more impressionable among mainstream audiences because the raw truth is that people can change, make mistakes, and grow apart. While most people marry with the intent of being together forever, sometimes this doesn't happen and just omitting those couples from your book to protect your platform is deceptive (and also sends a shitty message about people who divorce, IMO). 

[FundieFarmer]

4 hours ago, LittleSpouseOnThePrairie said:

unequally yoked as it might apply in sexual experience.

I heard that, as well as that if we had sex before marriage, we'd be thinking of the other person when we had sex during marriage. Seriously messed up nonsense. 

I think that among mainstream audiences, your book suggestion would be great. Among these fundies, not so much. Those getting divorced would be considered unChristian, so that would say they did something wrong in the courting process (or some other excuse) to start with.

[foreign fundie]

4 hours ago, FundieFarmer said:

I heard that, as well as that if we had sex before marriage, we'd be thinking of the other person when we had sex during marriage. Seriously messed up nonsense. 

Now, I have no experience with this, cause I was lucky enough to get the right guy the first time around. But it always sounded plausable to me that memories could come back at inconvenient times. However, what does not fit into this logic is those who re-marry after being widowed. If you have been married for x years would you not be much more likely to think of your former spouse than when you've crossed the line with a bf/gf a few times? Or do those memoried get magically erased upon death?

[DomWackTroll]

Kelly Crawford is upset about millennials who are blaming their parents for using Harris’ courtship method, calling them “cool kids” who look down on “the losers.”

http://www.generationcedar.com/main/2016/09/stop-being-a-bully-over-the-purity-movement-thing.html?utm_campaign=shareaholic&utm_medium=facebook&utm_source=socialnetwork

In the comments she says, “But I know PERSONALLY several young adults who have turned on parents who tried to give them the world.”

What I wouldn’t give for THAT list of names.

And also… “I sent Josh a link to this article and encouraged him to be wise and told him I was praying for wisdom and peace. He responded and was thankful.”

Thankful? Mmm-kay.

[hoipolloi]

1 hour ago, DomWackTroll said:

Kelly Crawford is upset about millennials who are blaming their parents for using Harris’ courtship method, calling them “cool kids” who look down on “the losers.”

She does, though, remind us how good it is for people to rethink things & admit they're wrong:

Quote

We all need to examine our beliefs and keep humility before us, willing to admit when we have veered off, and especially when/if we have led others to do so.

How about you, Kelly?

[CyborgKin]

The world wasn't theirs to give, and trying is supervillainy.

[ChairmanMeow]

Wow Josh Harris didn't age well at all!

So this book was a thing at my youth groups. I read it and thankfully didn't agree with it. I went to Christian schools at the height of True Love Waits and all that brain washing. I even signed a pledge stating I'd not have sex before marriage.

It didn't stick.

I would love to know if this negatively affected any of the people that were pushing it on us at the time. In Australia, the purity/SAHD movement doesn't seem to be big at all.

[treehugger]

On September 8, 2016 at 5:22 PM, foreign fundie said:

Now, I have no experience with this, cause I was lucky enough to get the right guy the first time around. But it always sounded plausable to me that memories could come back at inconvenient times. However, what does not fit into this logic is those who re-marry after being widowed. If you have been married for x years would you not be much more likely to think of your former spouse than when you've crossed the line with a bf/gf a few times? Or do those memoried get magically erased upon death?

It sounds plausible, but I know, from first hand experience that it wasn't that way -at least for me. I grew up on a steady fare of IKDG and BMG and Passion and Purity, but rebelled as a teenager and went on to have several intimate relationships with several guys, before I met Mr Treehugger.  I have never had a previous sexual memory with a different person come back to me while with another person.  Between the different techniques, unique relationships, and characters.... Yeah, there aren't a lot of similarities.  

IMHO, that concept is very much a scare tactic. Similar to the one used by anti-choicers in that ALL women regret their abortions.  Sure, some women may regret their abortions, and some people may experience awkward flashbacks about a previous partner.  But it is just as likely that you won't.  

[freesarah88]

Josh's younger brother Isaac is supporting Hillary. There is a public post on his facebook page about it.

In the comments, Chris Jeub claims that he considered supporting Hillary, but ultimately decided against it. Utterly fascinating.

[Toothfairy]

On Thursday, September 08, 2016 at 9:22 AM, formergothardite said:

That is a very sad story. If Josh is going to actually be honest, he needs(and needed to) address the fact that courtship can create very bad relationships too. Courtship doesn't prevent divorce, it doesn't prevent unhappy marriages. But then, is whole brand is sort of built around courtship not being like dating. 

In fundie land it does. Dating is sin

On Wednesday, September 21, 2016 at 8:51 AM, ChairmanMeow said:

Wow Josh Harris didn't age well at all!

So this book was a thing at my youth groups. I read it and thankfully didn't agree with it. I went to Christian schools at the height of True Love Waits and all that brain washing. I even signed a pledge stating I'd not have sex before marriage.

It didn't stick.

I would love to know if this negatively affected any of the people that were pushing it on us at the time. In Australia, the purity/SAHD movement doesn't seem to be big at all.

Australia isn't America. Christians make up the majority here. Bible thumpers try to get the country to themselves. 

[ChairmanMeow]

Exactly why I'm curious how it was received here. I left all churches when I was 21. I missed out on my so-called Christian friends getting married. I know most didn't have sex until marriage but I also know some people who didn't want to kiss before marriage. 

[Chocolatedefrauded]

What is funny is the contrast between this mindset & parents who think their kids should date/ hang out with lots of others because there's less chance of any one relationship becoming too intense. Or the more you date, the more you learn what you like & don't like in a partner. Physical stuff is not the only thing in a good relationship.

My mother wisely told me to watch how people treat others - their parents, waitresses, old people, little kids, it tells you a lot about their character. Chemistry can sometimes fizzle and you're left stuck with someone you don't even like. Focusing only on normal teenage hormones can drown out any warning sounds.