Tori Bates Courtship- Part 2

[RoseWilder]

6 hours ago, Fundie Bunny said:

I think Bradley is the cutest thing of the world, but his mom irritates me so muuuuuch. 

I know I've already said it before, but her grammar is terrible. I cringe every time I read her Instagram posts. 

Forgive me if this has already been asked, but how old is Tori?

[19 cats and counting]

3 minutes ago, RoseWilder said:

I know I've already said it before, but her grammar is terrible. I cringe every time I read her Instagram posts. 

Forgive me if this has already been asked, but how old is Tori?

Can't copy/paste on a phone but Tori turned 20 in December.

All of the kids' birthdays are on the Bringing Up Bates wiki page.

[RoseWilder]

7 minutes ago, 19 cats and counting said:

Can't copy/paste on a phone but Tori turned 20 in December.

All of the kids' birthdays are on the Bringing Up Bates wiki page.

Thanks! 

Wow, that's quite young. I was hoping more of the Duggar and Bates kids would at least hold off on marriage until their mid-20s so they would have a lower chance of ending up with 19 kids. 

[Tangy Bee]

Hey...I thought the season premiere was tonight. Saw previews. Said something about a "new beau". So I'm assuming they are talking about Tori's guy friend.

[vienna]

5 hours ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

Ill go out on a limb and take the controversial stand that a culture where covering up sexual abuse, forcing children into life roles of the parents choosing, and actively promoting a lifestyle which condemns child after child to poverty including lack of basic necessities including shelter and health care in many instances is....bad.  If that's black and white thinking so be it.

as long as I'm coming clean I'm also opposed to Nazis and rapists.  

To fight something you should understand it not just condemning it. This statement reminded me of one I heard from a Muslim fundi on the western culture. The points you make are of course not wrong but overall it is just not this simple!  I personally don't get so much out of screaming "bad" "really bad"  on everything fundi which does not make be a bates  fan or a leghumper  so please stop impinge it. It is just wrong. For all you know I could be a former fundi. Or work for an organisation  that provides help for people that try to or already did leave  sects   like jehovas whiteness  or scientology. Or I could be a university  professor researching  on fundamentalism.

Thanks for letting me know that fj is your house and that the purpose is to just trash everything fundi. I do really not mean this in a cynical  way but honest. That makes me understand  it better.

[OnceUponATime]

10 hours ago, vienna said:

I am interested in as many perspectives on the fundi topic as possible. But I think is more than one perspective.

Multiple perspectives are good, but only when you know what how they are formed and give them weight accordingly. Why? Well if my perspective of ATI comes from what I have seen from the very nicely PR-scrubbed Bates Family website, then to be honest - it's my opinion and not really worth much because it's based on a very very minute glimpse of 'life' that someone has deliberately chosen to show publicly. Not all perspectives are as good or accurate as others.

I would consider it an unwise move to rank my opinion about the ins and outs of ATI/IBLP over that of @formergothardite's. She has first hand knowledge and experience that reading of blogs/ watching reality tv shows/ following instagrams can probably ever come close to.  It doesn't mean I can't have my own opinion, or express it, it just means I shouldn't try to come over as an expert when I'm not. Also - while anyone here could be a former fundie, if they haven't come out as such in a somewhat reliable way, then I probably won't be giving extra weight to their opinions. I'm biased like that.

 

2 hours ago, vienna said:

 I personally don't get so much out of screaming "bad" "really bad"  on everything fundi which does not make be a bates  fan or a leghumper  so please stop impinge it.

I personally don't think people do scream bad bad bad evil bad for every 'positive' thing. I do think some people have a tendency to fawn and drool over anything that makes some fundies 'attractive' (which to me does belongs more on a fan site  than here). People complain about the great overenthusiastic leaps of speculation that people make founded in a non-realistic view. IMO rightly so. ymmv - so be it.

I actually appreciate some of the posts correcting things. Why? because I wasn't raised ATI/IBLP and I don't know that much about the ins and outs of it. There are certain overlaps to how I grew up, but then also big differences. Reading the bates/duggar forums had led me to think all iblp fundies must have long hair to stay a part of the in-group. So personally, I really really really appreciate it when people who grew up in ATI/IBLP corrects those misconceptions.
Could they sometimes do it nicer? sure, but I can also see why, when repeating something for the eleventieth time, they may be a bit blunt/short. A lot of that probably also has to do with perception and lack of tone and not with the actual words/intent behind them (again, ymmv).

To be honest I think a lot of the 'hand slapping' as you call it, comes from people putting out one-liners or vague declarations and not backing up what they mean. If one wants to discuss Alyssa having mentioned she wants 6 children, and says "yay, she wants to limit kids - fundie lite here we come" people probably will pile on them. If you wish to say "I really hope Alyssa does limit her children to 6 or under like she said, because that will be less children potentially growing up in that family (more time for each child, less children to indoctrinate), and also will be less risky for her health-wise" I doubt you'd get the same response. I hope you can see why.

 

Disclaimer: this post is my personal opinion. I misplaced my helpmeet hat after showering today and have yet to find it.

[laPapessaGiovanna]

2 hours ago, vienna said:

Thanks for letting me know that fj is your house

Technically this is @Curious's house, she's the owner and there are rules here and she's the first one to stick to them. The funny thing is that you CAN say nice things about the Bates. Your posts aren't censored nor deleted nor you are on any way punished for it. There's no rule that imposes to you what you have to say. The only rules about this is: no hate speech, no speculation about minor's sexuality or sexual abuse victims' identities. I don't see hate speech towards the Bates. And yet

2 hours ago, vienna said:

the purpose is to just trash everything fundi.

The purpose is to trash fundie's dangerous beliefs mocking them, snarking and joking and generally being as far from obsequious as possible. We are very disrespectful at times yesss and unashamedly so for the most part. The debate on what is good or bad taste, what is wise and what isn't, what is useful criticism and what is useless and void "trashing" is ongoing since a very long time, you can find traces of it everywhere. 

But I suspect that this isn't your problem.  You are massively whining because your willingness to see only the good things and only the apparent and probably non existent "baby steps", can't fly unchallenged. It's true that every time you post something on the lines of : "Alyssa/Erin/whoever just did this. This is not a fundie thing. It must be a sign that they are better than their parents/ not fundie anymore/better than the Duggars etc", someone replies that you are reading too much into things and explain their reasons. Now, I hardly envision this as problematic. If you can't stand criticism and feel overly challenged by different opinions well it's your problem not FJ's. If you can't stand blunt and sometimes not overly polite statements well it's again your problem not FJ's. If you can't stand mocking and joking see above. If you are pissed because someone tells you that you are a leghumper fine, you said it and explained that in your opinion you aren't, but you can't demand that the others change their opinions or stop expressing them because you say so.

 

[formergothardite]

10 hours ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

I am sorry, but some of you behave exactly this way just not in regard of Jesus but in regard of knowing the truth about the Bates, fundies, ATI, Duggars ect.

Are you saying there is a "nicer" truth about ATI, fundies, the Bates and the Duggars? 

I can promise you, that if I'm going to be a missionary, it isn't going to be to Bates fans. I've been trying to grift my way to Scotland for years. Apparently I need an accordion, more kids and a pop-up camper. 

It is really bizarre that the idea of discussing the dangers of fundamentalism in a forum dedicated to discussing the dangers of fundamentalism is now seen as going to the mission field. It isn't like I'm going to Bates fan pages to discuss these things. I'm staying in a spot designated to doing exactly what I'm doing. 

I've said nice things about the various Bates kids, so the whole claim that no one is allowed to say anything nice is pretty much false. Saying a nice thing is one thing, taking something and trying to claim it is a sign of being less fundie when it isn't, is another. And that seems to be the issue here. 

 

 

 

[nausicaa]

10 hours ago, RoseWilder said:

Thanks! 

Wow, that's quite young. I was hoping more of the Duggar and Bates kids would at least hold off on marriage until their mid-20s so they would have a lower chance of ending up with 19 kids. 

Yes, a major downside to Kelly's matchmaking skills is that those kids, with the exception of Michael, get married off early. 

And I just have a feeling she's on a roll now and with the publicity from the show the super young (22 and under) marriages will only become more common. I wouldn't be surprised if Trace or Carlin announce a courtship in the next year. 

[RoseWilder]

18 minutes ago, nausicaa said:

Yes, a major downside to Kelly's matchmaking skills is that those kids, with the exception of Michael, get married off early. 

I was excited when Zach didn't get married until 25, and then damn it, her married it a 20-year-old who seems to be pretty fertile. 

I guess there's always the hope that some of the Bates kids won't be as fertile as Kelly and Gil are. I'm not wishing infertility on anyone, I'm just hoping for a few of them to have normal levels of fertility. I read somewhere a long time ago that the average person who doesn't use birth control has 9 kids and they're generally spaced 2.5 years apart. That's still a lot of kids for normal people, but definitely better than 19.  Maybe without those 10 extra kids, the remaining 9 might get to eat decent meals. 

[trisprefect]

My one shining ray of hope is that it's rare for children of megafamilies to go on to create megafamilies of their own. There may be one or two who go on to have double digit children, but most of them are far more likely to have manageable broods, and some may *gasp* only have one or two. I just can't imagine the Alyssas and Toris and Carlins running around after more than say five children. In fact, the only adult Bates that I can see wanting tons of kids are Zach (who may pull it off since Whitney is so young), Michael (who may be limited by age), and Erin (who is limited by biology). I would never begrudge anyone their desired children, but the less kids, the fewer lives ruined by being thrown into the meat grinder of Gothardism.

[19 cats and counting]

The kids' ages at marriage

Erin-- 22 (Chad, 26?)
Zach-- 24 (almost 25) (Whitney, 20)
Alyssa-- 19 (John, 24)
Michael-- 25 (Brandon, almost 26)

Two courting  now (no engagements that we know of).  
Nathan (23 in August) (Ashley, 21) (I presume if Nathan marries this year it will be after his birthday)
Tori, 20 (Bobby, 20/21?) 

So far only one married super young (defined as not old enough to legally have a beer in the US).  Only one spouse (Whitney) was underage at the time of marriage.  

I have no idea how fast Tori's relationship is moving.  As far as I know, they're both juniors in college and they very well could wait until they (one or both) finish school until engagement/marriage.  
 

[nausicaa]

22 minutes ago, 19 cats and counting said:

The kids' ages at marriage

Erin-- 22 (Chad, 26?)
Zach-- 24 (almost 25) (Whitney, 20)
Alyssa-- 19 (John, 24)
Michael-- 25 (Brandon, almost 26)

Two courting  now (no engagements that we know of).  
Nathan (23 in August) (Ashley, 21) (I presume if Nathan marries this year it will be after his birthday)
Tori, 20 (Bobby, 20/21?) 

So far only one married super young (defined as not old enough to legally have a beer in the US).  Only one spouse (Whitney) was underage at the time of marriage.  

I have no idea how fast Tori's relationship is moving.  As far as I know, they're both juniors in college and they very well could wait until they (one or both) finish school until engagement/marriage.  
 

I was thinking of the women, and Erin, Whitney, and Alyssa were all super young in my opinion. Tori and Ashley are both under 22. Even though many of these families tout young marriage, their lack of social interactions and fear of the outside often makes their children 25 or older when they marry. 

Because the Bates are so well known and Kelly's clearly got some matchmaking skills, unfortunately that is not going to happen. On the one hand, they're actually doing what they preach, but on the other (secular) hand, it could be a drawback in the long run.   

[19 cats and counting]

6 minutes ago, nausicaa said:

I was thinking of the women, and Erin, Whitney, and Alyssa were all super young in my opinion. Tori and Ashley are both under 22. Even though many of these families tout young marriage, their lack of social interactions and fear of the outside often makes their children 25 or older when they marry. 

Because the Bates are so well known and Kelly's clearly got some matchmaking skills, unfortunately that is not going to happen. On the one hand, they're actually doing what they preach, but on the other (secular) hand, it could be a drawback in the long run.   

I think the Bates kids have more social interaction than other fundie families (in and out of their circles). Now I'm not sure if that's just how they portray themselves in the media or not.  (I think this has changed since the frumper days).  It is also noted that the Bates have non fundie relatives that they spend time with and are more than a token.

If I met them in person, I feel that I could hold down a conversation with one of their kidults about something other than religion.  I don't know if I could do the same with a Duggar, Maxwell, Waller, etc.  Even with the younger kids, I think it would be easier to talk to Addee or Ellie Bates than Johannah or Jennifer Duggar.

[nausicaa]

1 minute ago, 19 cats and counting said:

I think the Bates kids have more social interaction than other fundie families (in and out of their circles). Now I'm not sure if that's just how they portray themselves in the media or not.  (I think this has changed since the frumper days).  It is also noted that the Bates have non fundie relatives that they spend time with and are more than a token.

If I met them in person, I feel that I could hold down a conversation with one of their kidults about something other than religion.  I don't know if I could do the same with a Duggar, Maxwell, Waller, etc.  Even with the younger kids, I think it would be easier to talk to Addee or Ellie Bates than Johannah or Jennifer Duggar.

I was saying that other Fundie families, like the Maxwells, don't socially interact with many other families, hence older ages at first marriage. As opposed to the Bates who do socialize a lot and therefore their kids have more opportunities to meet potential partners. 

[19 cats and counting]

Just now, nausicaa said:

I was saying that other Fundie families, like the Maxwells, don't socially interact with many other families, hence older ages at first marriage. As opposed to the Bates who do socialize a lot and therefore their kids have more opportunities to meet potential partners. 

That I agree on.  Sorry I misinterpreted your post.

[JermajestyDuggar]

4 hours ago, nausicaa said:

Yes, a major downside to Kelly's matchmaking skills is that those kids, with the exception of Michael, get married off early. 

And I just have a feeling she's on a roll now and with the publicity from the show the super young (22 and under) marriages will only become more common. I wouldn't be surprised if Trace or Carlin announce a courtship in the next year. 

I feel like the big surge of relationships in the Bates family may be like a "marriage breeds marriage" sort of thing. Think of all the social events that are included in getting married. Unisex bridal showers, rehearsal dinners, and wedding all bring a lot of fundies together. So it makes sense that once the ball starts rolling on weddings in the bates family, many more chances for the young adults in the family to meet other single young adults. It's probably just going to keep the momentum going and they will have a wedding every year or every other year for some years to come.

[RoseWilder]

My cynical side says maybe they're marrying off so many of their kids so quickly because they saw the desert wasteland of boredom 19 Kids and Counting became when they were in a marriage dry spell. The Bates currently have enough children courting/marrying and procreating to fuel episodes for a long time. I think even without the multiple scandals, the Duggar show was on the verge of drying up. They only have 3 married kids and Anna and Jill don't appear to be producing children at as rapid of a pace as Michelle did. And there don't seem to be any courtships on the horizon, or babies for that matter, which leaves endless field trips. The Bates family doesn't have to worry about that any time soon. 

[JermajestyDuggar]

If I had as many children as these families and the children lived at home until marriage, I would really want them married off pretty quickly after their 18th birthday. Yes the adult children help a lot with the younger ones but having that many people in one house would drive me nuts. Plus they have plenty of teens and tween to help out.

[SilverBeach]

10 hours ago, vienna said:

Thanks for letting me know that fj is your house and that the purpose is to just trash everything fundi. I do really not mean this in a cynical  way but honest. That makes me understand  it better.

I think you sound butthurt here. Nobody has ever said stop talking about fluffy fundy aspects (no comments about hair or babies are allowed!). But there must be balance for FJ to be  true to itself.

You are overstating it, the FJ purpose is not to trash everything fundy. Where  is that stated? Yes, we unapologetically do not like what the people and families we discuss represent as their beliefs and practices are harmful and hurtful. You can even say that some of us don't like them because of the false way they present themselves. But so what?

You cannot control FJ culture.If this board is not what you thought it was or what you think it should be, you are free to stop participating. That's your choice, or not.

 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

11 hours ago, vienna said:

To fight something you should understand it not just condemning it. This statement reminded me of one I heard from a Muslim fundi on the western culture. The points you make are of course not wrong but overall it is just not this simple!  I personally don't get so much out of screaming "bad" "really bad"  on everything fundi which does not make be a bates  fan or a leghumper  so please stop impinge it. It is just wrong. For all you know I could be a former fundi. Or work for an organisation  that provides help for people that try to or already did leave  sects   like jehovas whiteness  or scientology. Or I could be a university  professor researching  on fundamentalism.

Thanks for letting me know that fj is your house and that the purpose is to just trash everything fundi. I do really not mean this in a cynical  way but honest. That makes me understand  it better.

To the bolded - yeah that's exactly what I said.  /s   It was an analogy and one I still think is apt but if you don't like it, here's another one...coming here to bitch that posters are interfering with Bates love is like going to a sports bar and complaining the TVs aren't tuned to PBS.  

You go into an environment built around a mindset and being shocked that mindset is expressed there is...baffling.

To the non-bolded.  We all have varying levels of knowledge when it comes to these groups.  My exposure irl is less than many and more than some.  But to equate what one can learn second hand against someone like FG who lived inside the belly of the beast is ridiculous to me.  I have my opinions and have zero problem weighting the opinions of those with more personal and deeper understanding of the subject magnitudes more heavily than my own.  

And I am aware that "really bad" is an over simplification of complex issues and I'd be on board if this were about doctrinal issues or things of which reasonable people could disagree.  But for me there are no shades of gray when it comes to covering up sexual abuse.  Protecting an abuser at the expense of his victims causing an added layer of damage...no, I don't think I need some great depth of understanding to determine whether or not this is okay.

Not okay.

And speaking for myself everyone who knows what Gil did, or Kelly's shilling of how to beat your infant books... and can put it aside because squee...they are apologists for evil people.  

I am not a particularly good person.  I am selfish, petty, arrogant at times, and can be ridiculously self absorbed....but I've never been violent to an infant nor deprived them of food or attention...and I've never been privy to the knowledge that someone was sexually abused and actively defended the monster who did it.

So when it comes to the "good person" test I set the bar as low as it could get for non-murderers and even I couldn't do what they did.  So yeah - I think they have pretty kids and a shiny happy facade and that's what makes them the most dangerous of all. 

 

[Palimpsest]

Well, as far as responding to Vienna's long post - everything I wanted to say has already been said better by others.  I'm sorry if I hurt her feelings, but quite honestly I think she would be happier on a Bates fan site.  If FJ is not a good fit for her (and possibly others) - it is not a good fit for everyone - there are other places to discuss the Bates family and the TV show.  Or so I hear.

Also, many thanks Buffy.  I practically fell off my chair laughing when I read this!

18 hours ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

honestly, @nelliebelle1197, @formergothardite, @Palimpsest, and others fighting the good fight if this is your idea of being missionaries you suck at it....maybe FB John Shraeder...he could probably give you some pointers.  

 

 

[OrchidBlossom]

I just caught up on... well all of this in the last few days. I don't have a lot to say, because it has pretty much all been covered, but like for a start I feel like fundies are a lot like porn, I can't really define it but I know it when I see it. But if I can't tell if something is fundie and someone who has actual ATI/IBLP experience here (sup @formergothardite) tells me it is, it probably is and it seems incredibly silly to try and debate what will and will not be seen as moving out of ATI wth someone who, ya know, actually moved out of ATI. I have knowledge (through myself or close friends) with religious extremeism but none with ATI (thankfully) so I think it is really important to defer to people who have knowledge of what we are discussing. I can analogize ATI to religious movements I am more familiar with, but each subculture will have its own ins and outs that I need to learn to understand.

Also I think this site does a lot of talking about how cute the babies and the hair on these shows are. Way more than I would like considering how much I dislike babies! (I joke. I may hate small children but it doesn't bother me when other people squee over little Spurgeon or whatever. Someone besides the fundies should probably like kids.) If that's ALL someone wants to read about, this isn't the site for them. But I don't think it is fair to say it doesn't happen. I also think it is okay to LIKE members of these families. No one has ever hand-slapped me for admitting my fondness for Alyssa and Erin Bates (or my complete dislike for Michael Bates, despite the fact that there is no real reason for me prefer any of them over the other, I don't even know why I do, just a personality thing?). I like that Alyssa is wearing pants and that Erin is working as a piano teacher. It's okay to see these things and think like, oh good for them I want those things for those people because I am fond of them. It's just an entirely different and dangerous thing to be like, well because I like Erin and she has a job, she is becoming less fundie. It is pretty well established that IBLP and fundie-ism doesn't stop women from having small, from-home jobs that cater to other fundamentalists. Same with women wearing pants. I think it is hard to distinguish from "well, I like this person and they seem to be doing a thing that their parents wouldn't have done/that is socially "normal" or accepted" to the fantasy of "well because it is a new thing, it must be evidence of a change away from IBLP" but making that distinction is very important. However much I like Erin Bates, she is still supporting an evil man (her father) by contributing to the public perception of his godliness, and I can't condone that or even say that she is stepping away from the beliefs she was raised in while she continues to actively support the core beliefs she was raised with.

I think the Bates also have the benefit of UP PR. TLC sold the Duggars as an oddity and now that's all they can ever be even though (as I think @formergothardite? pointed out in the last thread) Jessa is listening to rap and that is a much bigger deal comparatively than a hair cut. UP sold the Bates as a normal American family with extra kids and some cute beliefs about holding hands, and that's what we see. Now TLC has been sort of trying to scale back and make the Duggars seem more "normal" but it's hard to overcome that initial perception, and likewise the Bates can benefit from how hard it may be for people to overcome their initial perception for many people of how normal they are.

 

[BeccaGrim]

On 6/2/2016 at 10:17 AM, JermajestyDuggar said:

BUB is on tonight and if they introduce Bobby, I want to make a prediction. I think he's going to be a well spoken, likable, intelligent fundie that says and does all the right things. They will focus on his going to college to make him seem "normal." 

They didn't show him. I was looking too. Yes, he'll be as well mannered, polite, and camera ready as Chad, John, and Brendan were.  And Whitney for that matter.  And Ashley it would seem.  The courtships have to be made for TV ready.  Unlike the Duggars.  Anna's ok on TV (she's super skinny right now which breaks my heart because i don't think that come from a happy place).  Derrik looks scary at the moment and Ben downright miserable. 

3 hours ago, OrchidBlossom said:

I just caught up on... well all of this in the last few days. I don't have a lot to say, because it has pretty much all been covered, but like for a start I feel like fundies are a lot like porn, I can't really define it but I know it when I see it. But if I can't tell if something is fundie and someone who has actual ATI/IBLP experience here (sup @formergothardite) tells me it is, it probably is and it seems incredibly silly to try and debate what will and will not be seen as moving out of ATI wth someone who, ya know, actually moved out of ATI. I have knowledge (through myself or close friends) with religious extremeism but none with ATI (thankfully) so I think it is really important to defer to people who have knowledge of what we are discussing. I can analogize ATI to religious movements I am more familiar with, but each subculture will have its own ins and outs that I need to learn to understand.

Also I think this site does a lot of talking about how cute the babies and the hair on these shows are. Way more than I would like considering how much I dislike babies! (I joke. I may hate small children but it doesn't bother me when other people squee over little Spurgeon or whatever. Someone besides the fundies should probably like kids.) If that's ALL someone wants to read about, this isn't the site for them. But I don't think it is fair to say it doesn't happen. I also think it is okay to LIKE members of these families. No one has ever hand-slapped me for admitting my fondness for Alyssa and Erin Bates (or my complete dislike for Michael Bates, despite the fact that there is no real reason for me prefer any of them over the other, I don't even know why I do, just a personality thing?). I like that Alyssa is wearing pants and that Erin is working as a piano teacher. It's okay to see these things and think like, oh good for them I want those things for those people because I am fond of them. It's just an entirely different and dangerous thing to be like, well because I like Erin and she has a job, she is becoming less fundie. It is pretty well established that IBLP and fundie-ism doesn't stop women from having small, from-home jobs that cater to other fundamentalists. Same with women wearing pants. I think it is hard to distinguish from "well, I like this person and they seem to be doing a thing that their parents wouldn't have done/that is socially "normal" or accepted" to the fantasy of "well because it is a new thing, it must be evidence of a change away from IBLP" but making that distinction is very important. However much I like Erin Bates, she is still supporting an evil man (her father) by contributing to the public perception of his godliness, and I can't condone that or even say that she is stepping away from the beliefs she was raised in while she continues to actively support the core beliefs she was raised with.

I think the Bates also uoY the benefit of UP PR. TLC sold the Duggars as an oddity and now that's all they can ever be even though (as I think @formergothardite? pointed out in the last thread) Jessa is listening to rap and that is a much bigger deal comparatively than a hair cut. UP sold the Bates as a normal American family with extra kids and some cute beliefs about holding hands, and that's what we see. Now TLC has been sort of trying to scale back and make the Duggars seem more "normal" but it's hard to overcome that initial perception, and likewise the Bates can benefit from how hard it may be for people to overcome their initial perception for many people of how normal they are.

 

You really hit the nail on the head with all of this. So well written. Thank you

[Tangy Bee]

Does anyone know much about Courtney Green? She has a lot of nice instagram pics hanging with the Bates. They all appear to be close friends. Spotted a pick of Bobby with Tori posted this past Jan. Nathan took the pic. Looking forward to hearing their little love story.