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Tori Bates Courtship- Part 2


samurai_sarah

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10 minutes ago, nelliebelle1197 said:

I still take your Bradley Bates and raise you a little Stephen Anderson in fundie babie cuteness wars.

You have it all wrong. Fundie puppies trump fundie babies every time.

#TeamEllie

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2 minutes ago, OnceUponATime said:

You have it all wrong. Fundie puppies trump fundie babies every time.

#TeamEllie

Steve Maxwell will take away your Taco Bell.

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14 minutes ago, nelliebelle1197 said:

I still take your Bradley Bates and raise you a little Stephen Anderson in fundie babie cuteness wars.

I'll take your little Stephen Anderson and raise you ... Isaiah Kasimpe Shrader.

Yes, the "reward" just arrived in Poisonwood.  He's really, really, cute in that fresh out of the womb a little red and squashed looking sort of way.  He can't help his second name.

(I'm #TeamEllie too.)

 

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Just now, nelliebelle1197 said:

your Taco Bell.

yeah, about that I don't have one. I don't drink Pepsi either :P

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2 hours ago, HereticHick said:

I've always heard that at colleges with big Mormon populations (like BYU), lots of the Mormon couples get engaged before they graduate, and not a small number marry as well: http://universe.byu.edu/2013/02/12/by-i-do/

I don't know if this is common at "gentile" fundy schools like Crown or PCC or Bob Jones--or if the school dating rules are so restrictive (and there are no parents/siblings around to chaperone dates) its difficult to be engaged (or even courting) before you graduate.

I've heard the expectation is to be married by senior year at BYU, and there is a whole section of student housing devoted to married couples. 

I know someone at Liberty now who says the girls all plan on getting engaged by junior year, senior year at the latest. 

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4 hours ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

Or throwing the bible when Jill announced she was pregnant. That always makes me laugh.

That was was such a teenager thing to do - it took me a bit by surprise. :pb_lol:

 

1 hour ago, 19 cats and counting said:

I think Bobby will be introduced in their Valentines Day episode.  I also wonder how much they will focus on this relationship as opposed to Nathan and Ashley.

As for the girls 'keeping sweet.'  I will say (some of) the Bates girls seem a lot sassier than the Duggar girls.  Sure you get an eyeroll here or there from Jinger or Joy, but it seems to be beaten (literally or figuratively) out of them at a certain age (seems to be happening with Johannah now).  And I find the (post-pubescent) Duggar brother/sister interactions to be rather awkward (as if they are forced).  Josiah and Joy were the original Jackson and Johannah, and now they seem to barely interact (apparently pre TV this was also Jinger and Joseph). (Note-- a lot of the Duggar brother/sister separation is probably the result of Joshgate 1.0)

Now with the Bates, I see snarky/sassy remarks from Tori and Carlin and I also see brother/sister interaction more (this very well could be PR here).  Lawson and Josie (Bates) seem to be close.  There was one episode where Carlin made Nathan help her trim the fat off of chicken and that is just not something I see happening in the TTH.  Their sibling interactions seem natural as opposed to staged.  

I do realize I could be completely wrong because reality TV is anything but.  A casual observer of both families would probably realize the same thing.

I think part of it is absolutely due to Josh's assaults on his sisters and the fifth unnamed victim. It probably explains some of the awkward interactions between the courting couples as well. I mean, as far as we know the Bates family never dealt with anything like this in house (I really hope that's the case at least) - it's a lot easier to relax around your siblings if you aren't constantly scared they're going to harm you somehow.

I do agree with @formergotharditethough. I think the Duggars are just naturally less outgoing than the Bates kids. It's possible that the Bates kids are just better suited to this type of lifestyle as well, especially the girls when compared to the Duggars. For instance:

Erin loves music, Michael seems to adore kids, and Alyssa found a guy to marry who doesn't follow all the strictest rules. And Whitney, while not born Fundie, seems to have really settled into the lifestyle as well because she finally got the family she may have always wanted.

With the Duggars, only Jill and Jinger seem to have interests that are somewhat ok - Jill with midwifery and Jinger with photography (though she hasn't or can't pursue it very far for some reason.) Jessa never seemed very happy at the TTH because she doesn't seem to have found an approved interest; now that she has her son she does seem more content.

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1 hour ago, nelliebelle1197 said:

Steve Maxwell will take away your Taco Bell.

I'd prefer saltines to Taco Bell...but as I can't foresee ever being in a position where I'd be punished by Steve Maxwell it's probably a moot point.

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1 hour ago, nelliebelle1197 said:

I still take your Bradley Bates and raise you a little Stephen Anderson in fundie babie cuteness wars.

I still think Carson Paine is cuter than Bradley Bates. Allie Jane is too solemn for me, though I hardly blame her.

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1 hour ago, OnceUponATime said:

You have it all wrong. Fundie puppies trump fundie babies every time.

#TeamEllie

Puppy Ellie Maxwell  romping with Baby Bradley Bates =  Fundie Cuteness Overload.

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24 minutes ago, just...sare said:

I still think Carson Paine is cuter than Bradley Bates. Allie Jane is too solemn for me, though I hardly blame her.

I like his new curls of blonde hair. 

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I think Bradley is the cutest thing of the world, but his mom irritates me so muuuuuch. Carson is getting cuter and cuter. He looks like such a sweet baby.

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When is Whitney due to have Kaci? Very soon, right?

I'm just imagining a baby girl version of Bradley and my ovaries are exploding.

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2 hours ago, Palimpsest said:

I'll take your little Stephen Anderson and raise you ... Isaiah Kasimpe Shrader.

The Bates babies have a hard time competing against Shrader babies. Little Charis, Sophia, Stephen and Isaiah are just adorable. John is the world's most inept missionary, but he produced some cute children. 

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2 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

The Bates babies have a hard time competing against Shrader babies. Little Charis, Sophia, Stephen and Isaiah are just adorable. John is the world's most inept missionary, but he produced some cute children. 

Those Keller make cute babies. But Davia Waller should have her own category. She looks like an angry old lady. It's Super cute.

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20 minutes ago, actuallyjessica said:

When is Whitney due to have Kaci? Very soon, right?

I'm just imagining a baby girl version of Bradley and my ovaries are exploding.

She's due  June 25th.  She went over a week with Bradley though. Im also imagining a girl version of Bradley she'll be adorable, as will Brooklyn

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3 minutes ago, Nashville92 said:

She's due  June 25th.  She went over a week with Bradley though. Im also imagining a girl version of Bradley she'll be adorable, as will Brooklyn

I think Kaci Lynn sounds like a name straight out of the 1980s. 

Also, Judson's dimples make me melt.

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23 minutes ago, Nashville92 said:

She's due  June 25th.  She went over a week with Bradley though. Im also imagining a girl version of Bradley she'll be adorable, as will Brooklyn

Thanks, I knew it was sometime this month but wasn't sure when. Oh, I cannot wait to see Brooklyn. If we do get to see her over all the frills that she'll be wearing, hahaha. I'm sure if they weren't fundie, or if it were fundie-approved those kids would be entered in all the pageants.

 

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I was just watching BUB from last week. It was just a clip show of their vacations and one clip showed them at the beach and the blurred out a 65 year old woman's cleavage in her bathing suit. I snorted. 

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3 hours ago, just...sare said:

I still think Carson Paine is cuter than Bradley Bates. Allie Jane is too solemn for me, though I hardly blame her.

I think Spurgeon Seewald (despite his horrible name) is just adorable.  I just want to pinch those cheeks.  

Allie Webster seems to have inherited her mother's resting bitch face.  I've never seen that kid smile.

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I would like to answer a few of the questions I have been asked. I cannot quote from the now closed threat and there have been quite a lot of comments so I will response to what I remember the most after reading through all of it. First of all, I would like some of you for encouraging words. And I am sorry that I am not able to quote; I had to do it by “cut and paste”, sorry for this. Quotes should appear in italics.

Here are a few points

My statement of Alyssa cutting her hair and being slapped as soon as you say something that is not bad about the Bates

First of all, I did not speak about my post and the response to it. But I do understand that it is likely to be understood this way, my bet. The response I received for this post was not especially bad. I took Alyssa cutting her hair as an example because it was one of those things that have been noted/brought up also in regard of a possible sign of one of the Bates doing something different.

It has been stated that me saying “extraordinary for fundi” (in regard of Alyssa cutting her hair) was something that needed to be corrected. I quote the question: “Should members just let threads get filled up with incorrect and false information making this family look less fundi than they really are?”

I still find it extraordinary because none of her sisters cut her hair and I believe that she would have never done it while under the headship of her dad. “For fundi” might again lead to the discussion about the definition of the word “fundi”; I will not go into this.

Of course I value the information, that there are fundamentalists (whatever each of us here understands by this terms) that cut their hair and still are fundis. But what bothers me really it the tone; not of one particular answer but it feels like there is almost aggression towards people that are considered enemies because they just don´t get it.

This is not a Duggar fan site

This has been stated quite often. I never thought this for a second and I really don´t fear that any new person coming here might mistake fj as a fan site. I would rather assume that most people here disapprove with fundamentalism (and hence are here). This often stated information, that this is not a fan site, might have more to do with an idea of fj being a platform to inform undereducated people (more on this at the very end of my post) about the evil of fundamentalism.

Fundamentalism, tone of posts and what FJ might mean

I will not go into the hard question on defining this term. But I would like to talk about one element that the term “fundi” contains for me. It is knowing (not thinking or believing) that you know the truth (e.g. the bible is god’s word and you will go to hell if you don´t accept Jesus as your saviour….) and that everybody who does not see the truth is wrong and condemned; a black and white thinking and looking down to everyone who does no see the truth and/or trying to mission these poor souls so that they finally see the light. I am sorry, but some of you behave exactly this way just not in regard of Jesus but in regard of knowing the truth about the Bates, fundies, ATI, Duggars ect.

I would also like to response to two other post directed to me.

I am quoting the following post: “Yes, I think FG does qualify as an expert.  Perhaps you should try to respect that.” I doubt by no means that FG as a former member of the cult has knowledge that someone who has not been there simply cannot have. I am interested in as many perspectives on the fundi topic as possible. But I think is more than one perspective. I also think that one (or a few) people cannot own truth. Because especially with complex topics like this there is no absolute truth. If you would put 20 former cult members in a room, they would not agree on everything for sure. I have to state again that the main and real problem I have is actually the tone and that it feels just like missionaries that want to save you or otherwise you are condemned for the “You are a Bated Fan hell”.  Also I would not call any of the fundis “evil” which does not mean that I don´t see that such cults have the power to e.g. ruin lifes, influence politics and so on. This might have to do with my definition of evil.

Again, the way of communication is my main problem. No discussion allowed when ther is a right and wrong, a true and falso and the punsihment of beeing consideres (amongs other Thing) a not nowin anything Bates fan.

 

Another point about the way of discussion: The fallowing really bothered me personally.

I The first sentence is from me and the second is a response

“I stopped posting on the bates thread a while ago. “

Or about 10 days ago.  @formergothardite, who actually lived IBLP, politely disagreed with you about the importance of hair cuts and you took umbrage.

This really bothered me. To me this seems like the person posting this wanted to discredit me by counting the days of my last post (which has “only”? been 10 days ago). I might be wrong in the understanding of the term “a while ago” – if so I apologize. In general, I read far more often than I post. I just wanted to transport that in the last time (also if only 10 days) I wanted to post multiple times but did not because I felt like a discussion is not possible. The reason I did feel uncomfortable has been stated in my post from yesterday and was not one simple answer to one of my posts.

I would also like to quote the following post

“Also, we have people reading here who only know the Bates from the show and from the social media, so when they come here and read all these posts taking tiny things and using them to say the Bates are less fundamental and better than the Duggars, well they very well might just take that at face value and not realize how evil the Bates are. We had posters that didn't know about the racism, the harsh baby training, the covering up of horrific abuse, and all the other awful stuff about the Bates. So yes, every single thread needs to remind people that the Bates are fucking awful and Gil is a monster in disguise.”

I am not writing here for potential undereducated newbies that come her. I don’t want to transport a certain message, I am not on a Mission. I post here feeling that with FJ I am within a group of people who are interested in fundamentalism, know something about it (be it by personal experience, be it by research) and see it quite critically. I assume that most people her are like this. In regard of all my posts here, I might not have stated often enough something that reflects my opinion on fundis (which is not a good one to put it mildly). I just don´t feel like stating the obvious. I am taking this as a given basis which might have been wrong.

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, vienna said:

I will not go into the hard question on defining this term. But I would like to talk about one element that the term “fundi” contains for me. It is knowing (not thinking or believing) that you know the truth (e.g. the bible is god’s word and you will go to hell if you don´t accept Jesus as your saviour….) and that everybody who does not see the truth is wrong and condemned; a black and white thinking and looking down to everyone who does no see the truth and/or trying to mission these poor souls so that they finally see the light. I am sorry, but some of you behave exactly this way just not in regard of Jesus but in regard of knowing the truth about the Bates, fundies, ATI, Duggars ect.

Ill go out on a limb and take the controversial stand that a culture where covering up sexual abuse, forcing children into life roles of the parents choosing, and actively promoting a lifestyle which condemns child after child to poverty including lack of basic necessities including shelter and health care in many instances is....bad.  If that's black and white thinking so be it.

as long as I'm coming clean I'm also opposed to Nazis and rapists.  

Not all lifestyles are valid - Gil and Kelly's right to live their lives as grinning idiot grifters ended the first time someone else was harmed by their choices and activism.

I have to state again that the main and real problem I have is actually the tone and that it feels just like missionaries that want to save you or otherwise you are condemned for the “You are a Bated Fan hell”.  <snip>

missionaries go out in search of people to annoy save.  Are they seeking out gatherings of Batesesess fans so as to save them from ignorance and convert them to snark?  No.  Decrying the vileness of Gil and Kelly Bates on a forum specifically designed to decry such things is....the worst missionary move....ever.

honestly, @nelliebelle1197, @formergothardite, @Palimpsest, and others fighting the good fight if this is your idea of being missionaries you suck at it....maybe FB John Shraeder...he could probably give you some pointers. :) 

how are they being missionaries when they are here?  If anything the fan girls are miss ionizing (it's a word - now) here.  thats like coming into my house and claiming I'm trying to covert you because you might see a crucifix or a rosary.  i don't give a shit what other people believe, but come in my house and don't like what you're exposed to?  Go somewhere less offensive to you

Again, the way of communication is my main problem. No discussion allowed when ther is a right and wrong, <snip>

I agree that communication seems to be a problem for you.  Who disallowed discussion?  Have you been banned for liking these people?  Have you been threatened with restricted status for an opposing opinion?  No.  Discussion is allowed, but the right to discuss without others voicing dissent was never promised to anyone.  

If people (not just you) could stop conflating disagreement with being silenced that would be great.

 

I am not writing here for potential undereducated newbies that come her. I don’t want to transport a certain message, <snip>

some of us care very much about what newbies wandering in think.  Here's why:

'someone sees the Batteseess on tv and oh cute babies, giant family, how sweet...googles....finds our threads here and clicks on in.

without the the people who tirelessly post to keep the record straight it absolutely reads like a fan site.  Put them on ignore for a second and read the thread, easy experiment to prove my point.

not everyone finds the battttessesesess thread via FJ, many find FJ via the threads and this isn't a fort for Leg Humpers to hold fan club meetings.  Hang the poster of Lawson staring dreamily somewhere else.  

I, for one, do care if the first impression is that we're supportive of the bates as a community because all the shiny hair and gleaming smiles in the world doesn't make covering up sexual abuse okay.  Doesn't make limiting the opportunities for your children okay.  And doesn't make trying to foist religious beliefs on the rest of us via the political system okay.

 

 

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"Quiver Full of Duggars

Free Jinger is not a Duggar fan site.
We exist to discuss the damage caused by fundamentalists."

So, writing for potentially undereducated newbies, and being on a mission, and having an anti-fundy agenda when posting here is what we do!

Some of you may want to talk about cute babies, etc., some of us don't . The truth is that some of the  fluffier posts would fit better on a fan site than here. The pendulum had swung too far to the fluff side, to the point where the FJ purpose was forgotten and critical posters were avoiding the Bates and Duggar threads because of the chilly reception we received  there.

So, the reminders are necessary to keep this from happening again. 

And, everything @HerNameIsBuffy said.

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8 hours ago, OnceUponATime said:

You have it all wrong. Fundie puppies trump fundie babies every time.

#TeamEllie

I'm #TeamHappy myself. Love that dehydrated lil fuzzball!!

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I'm on the team of that cat Derick Dillard tried to run over.  I'd love to save that kitty from the hell that is Duggarland.

As far as the IBLP lawsuit--- I think Gil and Kelly are keeping the whole thing private from their kids.  The only ones who might know are Michael and/or Erin because of their husband/FIL.

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