Tori Bates Courtship- Part 2

[samurai_sarah]

Carry on from here:

 

[formergothardite]

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I am fairly new so I can give a pretty unbiased perspective (meaning I am not buddy buddy with anyone). I think that the "slapping" might be in regards to how hardhly some people correct information. It's rather off putting. By all means correct info! But I think some people go beyond correcting info and it could make people not want to post anything even remotely decent about the Bates family. 

She was actually speaking of an exact post because she said that she was slapped down when she talked about Alyssa's hair. It was my post and it was in response to her posting incorrect information about IBLP/ATI cult standards about hair. This is my response. 

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Not really. As I pointed out in the other thread it was brought up on, I had shorter hair than Alyssa's when I was going to ATI events and it wasn't a big deal. Lots and lots of women and girls had short hair. Literally no one mentioned my fairly short hair because while Gothard has a fetish for girls/women with long curly hair, it wasn't a big deal if girls/women had short hair. 

I do try to be nice, but apparently that isn't enough. I didn't call her names. What else am I supposed to do when false info is presented as being fact?

People aren't just posting little things they like about the Bates, they are taking little meaningless things and turning them into signs that the Bates are better than the Duggars and less fundie. Like Alyssa "keeping sweet". That whole concept has been brought up so many times, but in reality it isn't one associated with IBLP. Like that she talks back to folks who annoy her, but it should not be turned into a thing where she is less fundie, because it means nothing except that her personality makes her more likely to snap back at people. And it isn't a moral failing that the Duggars are not cheerful and outgoing. The Bates outgoing loud personalities aren't signs that they are a better family and they are often treated like they are just because they have those sorts of personalities. The Bates love has forced me to defend the Duggars! And I can't stand the Duggars!

I think Alyssa's hair looks nice. But her hair cut is literally just that, a hair cut. I've defended Chad against people who said he seemed not manly(I can't remember the exact term they used), so I don't think the Bates forum should be nothing but nasty hating on the Bates. Chad seems like a fairly nice husband, but again, that is all there is to it, him not being evil on social media isn't a sign of them being less fundie. 

I want the Bates to stop being fundie as much as anyone else, but I'm going to be realistic about it and I don't think this forum should turn into unrealistic talk about how the various Bates kids are becoming less fundie when there is really no sign that they are. It doesn't help anyone to have discussions about the Bates that aren't founded in the reality of what ATI/IBLP is like. And it actually hurts people because the idea that the Bates family is less fundie and better than the Duggars has made people question the stories of abuse in IBLP and the accusations against Gil. 

[JermajestyDuggar]

18 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

She was actually speaking of an exact post because she said that she was slapped down when she talked about Alyssa's hair. It was my post and it was in response to her posting incorrect information about IBLP/ATI cult standards about hair. This is my response. 

I do try to be nice, but apparently that isn't enough. I didn't call her names. What else am I supposed to do when false info is presented as being fact?

People aren't just posting little things they like about the Bates, they are taking little meaningless things and turning them into signs that the Bates are better than the Duggars and less fundie. Like Alyssa "keeping sweet". That whole concept has been brought up so many times, but in reality it isn't one associated with IBLP. Like that she talks back to folks who annoy her, but it should not be turned into a thing where she is less fundie, because it means nothing except that her personality makes her more likely to snap back at people. And it isn't a moral failing that the Duggars are not cheerful and outgoing. The Bates outgoing loud personalities aren't signs that they are a better family and they are often treated like they are just because they have those sorts of personalities. The Bates love has forced me to defend the Duggars! And I can't stand the Duggars!

I think Alyssa's hair looks nice. But her hair cut is literally just that, a hair cut. I've defended Chad against people who said he seemed not manly(I can't remember the exact term they used), so I don't think the Bates forum should be nothing but nasty hating on the Bates. Chad seems like a fairly nice husband, but again, that is all there is to it, him not being evil on social media isn't a sign of them being less fundie. 

I want the Bates to stop being fundie as much as anyone else, but I'm going to be realistic about it and I don't think this forum should turn into unrealistic talk about how the various Bates kids are becoming less fundie when there is really no sign that they are. It doesn't help anyone to have discussions about the Bates that aren't founded in the reality of what ATI/IBLP is like. And it actually hurts people because the idea that the Bates family is less fundie and better than the Duggars has made people question the stories of abuse in IBLP and the accusations against Gil. 

I want to address the keeping sweet thing. I used the term that is used in the FLDS but it was my impression from reading about IBLP and ATI that it is encouraged to keep a smile on your face in front of others even if you don't feel it. Am I correct in that? I just use "keeping sweet" as an easy term but I suppose I can describe it as something else. 

[formergothardite]

15 minutes ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

I want to address the keeping sweet thing. I used the term that is used in the FLDS but it was my impression from reading about IBLP and ATI that it is encouraged to keep a smile on your face in front of others even if you don't feel it

It is a bit more complicated than that. Alyssa when getting snippy with people who criticize her would still be considered as being fine in most IBLP/ATI families because there is room for blunt, in your face people who tell it like it is. There is an entire one of Gothard's "spiritual gifts" that is supposed to be for people like that and they are considered as being perfectly fine and acting how God made them. 

Being blunt towards internet haters* isn't what Gothard/IBLP is really talking about. They want you to repress negative feelings about ATI/IBLP. So if she wrote that she hated every single thing about her childhood, living in a large family made her depressed and that Journey the Heart made her miserable or something like that, it would be considered as being bad. Very bad. Repress the hell out of feelings like that. But snipping at random mean strangers on the internet? Nah, that is not a big deal. 

*for example look at Alfred, Gothard's biggest friend and supporter. He is snippy and mean as hell towards people who disagree with him on the internet.

[JermajestyDuggar]

14 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

It is a bit more complicated than that. Alyssa when getting snippy with people who criticize her would still be considered as being fine in most IBLP/ATI families because there is room for blunt, in your face people who tell it like it is. There is an entire one of Gothard's "spiritual gifts" that is supposed to be for people like that and they are considered as being perfectly fine and acting how God made them. 

Being blunt towards internet haters* isn't what Gothard/IBLP is really talking about. They want you to repress negative feelings about ATI/IBLP. So if she wrote that she hated every single thing about her childhood, living in a large family made her depressed and that Journey the Heart made her miserable or something like that, it would be considered as being bad. Very bad. Repress the hell out of feelings like that. But snipping at random mean strangers on the internet? Nah, that is not a big deal. 

*for example look at Alfred, Gothard's biggest friend and supporter. He is snippy and mean as hell towards people who disagree with him on the internet.

Ok thank you for clarifying. 

[formergothardite]

An example of the Bates "keeping sweet" would be the claim that the girls all "wanted" to watch the babies while their parents got to spend lots of time without children. Or how they all "wanted" their mother to have more babies so they fasted and cried out to God. Or how they all "like" sharing a room with a sibling. So they all "keep sweet" in the right way while be blunt in the right way too. 

A real example of not "keeping sweet" is Joy Duggar rolling her eyes, sulking and looking miserable during the talk about courtship. 

[JillyO]

I've said plenty of superficial, positive things about the Bateses, such as that Bradley is one of the most beautiful babies I have ever seen. And yet, I have somehow managed to not get hand-slapped about it. Wanna know my secrets?

1. I don't try to create some ridicuous chain of causality from these superficial things, such as: Bradley Bates is such a beautiful boy, always smiling. This obviously means that Zach and Whitney aren't blanket-training him. I'm pretty sure they're going fundie-light.

2. I post plenty of things that do discuss the damaging effects of fundamentalism in general and the Bateses in particular. I don't just come to this subforum to comment how cute Alyssa's sleveless dress looks.

You should try it some time. It's like magic.

[JermajestyDuggar]

12 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

An example of the Bates "keeping sweet" would be the claim that the girls all "wanted" to watch the babies while their parents got to spend lots of time without children. Or how they all "wanted" their mother to have more babies so they fasted and cried out to God. Or how they all "like" sharing a room with a sibling. So they all "keep sweet" in the right way while be blunt in the right way too. 

A real example of not "keeping sweet" is Joy Duggar rolling her eyes, sulking and looking miserable during the talk about courtship. 

Or throwing the bible when Jill announced she was pregnant. That always makes me laugh.

[HereticHick]

I could squee over Bradley Bates all day long.

But back to Tori's courtship--does anyone know if PCC has rules about courting/dating/being engaged without school approval? I thought Crown College had a rule about it, but I can't find it on their site now

[formergothardite]

12 minutes ago, HereticHick said:

But back to Tori's courtship--does anyone know if PCC has rules about courting/dating/being engaged without school approval? I

I found this about Crown's rules. 

http://www.stufffundieslike.com/2012/01/dating-rules-crown-college-edition/

Interracial dating has to be approved in writing by both sets of parents.  Crown has seemed to have pulled that handbook from the internet and I can't find any of their current rules on dating. Not sure if they changed them or just made them harder to find because they were being mocked by several places on the internet for that particular rule. 

I think PCC allows dating, but there are lots of rules for dating couples. 

[Casserole]

PCC Code of Conduct: https://www.pcci.edu/pathway/StudentResponsibilities/CodeOfConduct.aspx (witchcraft strictly forbidden)

There are separate stairwells and elevators for men and women: https://www.pcci.edu/pathway/StudentResponsibilities/CollegeStandards2.aspx

Students aged 23 and older get to live on their own floor AND date OFF CAMPUS WITHOUT A CHAPERONE - someone sign Jana up  https://www.pcci.edu/pathway/23AndOlder.aspx

 

That's all the sleuthing I have time for today. 

[just...sare]

23 seems like an arbitrary age. Wouldn't that be at the very upper limit of students anyway? Don't y'all start college at 17 or 18?

[formergothardite]

37 minutes ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

Or throwing the bible when Jill announced she was pregnant. That always makes me laugh.

Did Joy throw a Bible? I missed that! I have always felt the Gil and Kelly did a much better job at training their kids in hiding negative emotions about the IBLP lifestyle. No way they are all that super happy about the lifestyle, but their show, blog and social media always make them look thrilled to be living that way. 

5 minutes ago, just...sare said:

 

23 seems like an arbitrary age. Wouldn't that be at the very upper limit of students anyway?

 

Maybe because at 23 they would be getting close to graduating and most likely getting married? Who knows why fundies make up random rules. 

[Fundie Bunny]

9 minutes ago, just...sare said:

23 seems like an arbitrary age. Wouldn't that be at the very upper limit of students anyway? Don't y'all start college at 17 or 18?

There you have why. They would have only a handful of students over 23

Oh my, not even vaps? And profanity? That seems like a fucky place to live

[JermajestyDuggar]

6 minutes ago, just...sare said:

23 seems like an arbitrary age. Wouldn't that be at the very upper limit of students anyway? Don't y'all start college at 17 or 18?

I'm sure that age is because most are done with college by 22/23. So it's their way of saying, "see! We give them freedom to live in their own and date while in college!" When they know most students are under that age. 

[SilverBeach]

16 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

I found this about Crown's rules. 

http://www.stufffundieslike.com/2012/01/dating-rules-crown-college-edition/

Interracial dating has to be approved in writing by both sets of parents.  Crown has seemed to have pulled that handbook from the internet and I can't find any of their current rules on dating. Not sure if they changed them or just made them harder to find because they were being mocked by several places on the internet for that particular rule. 

I think PCC allows dating, but there are lots of rules for dating couples. 

I loved  the Stuff Fundies Like site. Its just a FB page now but if you were a snark lover who enjoyed interacting with sincere and intelligent pwople, this was the place to be. 

I have no words for the interracial dating rule, other than Christian my azz.

[Palimpsest]

I ... wouldn't advise anyone to go to Pensacola Christian College even with its strange dating rules.  I posted a link to Samantha Field's article - 5 reasons not to go to PCC on the last thread.  

This is her earlier article.  Warning:  descriptions of rape - and a college determined to punish and devalue survivors of rape.

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/slacktivist/2014/03/11/guest-post-god-is-done-with-you-pensacola-christian-college-and-sexual-violence/

[SilverBeach]

11 minutes ago, just...sare said:

23 seems like an arbitrary age. Wouldn't that be at the very upper limit of students anyway? Don't y'all start college at 17 or 18?

Yep, I was done as an undergrad at 21.

[nausicaa]

11 minutes ago, just...sare said:

23 seems like an arbitrary age. Wouldn't that be at the very upper limit of students anyway? Don't y'all start college at 17 or 18?

Yeah, I'm guessing most students who are 23 or older are also non-traditional students (so worked for awhile in the big bad world and are attending part time or in the evenings). So it's gonna be harder to keep them down on the farm, so they toss them that bone. Those students are also probably financing school themselves.

18-22 year olds probably came straight from Mom and Dad's house so the school is selling safety and protection to the parents (who are the ones paying) and an extended childhood. 

[JermajestyDuggar]

BUB is on tonight and if they introduce Bobby, I want to make a prediction. I think he's going to be a well spoken, likable, intelligent fundie that says and does all the right things. They will focus on his going to college to make him seem "normal." 

[HereticHick]

I've always heard that at colleges with big Mormon populations (like BYU), lots of the Mormon couples get engaged before they graduate, and not a small number marry as well: http://universe.byu.edu/2013/02/12/by-i-do/

I don't know if this is common at "gentile" fundy schools like Crown or PCC or Bob Jones--or if the school dating rules are so restrictive (and there are no parents/siblings around to chaperone dates) its difficult to be engaged (or even courting) before you graduate.

[Nashville92]

8 minutes ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

BUB is on tonight and if they introduce Bobby, I want to make a prediction. I think he's going to be a well spoken, likable, intelligent fundie that says and does all the right things. They will focus on his going to college to make him seem "normal." 

I'm sure he'll be introduced by I Love You Day as he's shown in previews. I wonder how long they were boyfriend/girlfriend prior to courtship. As I don't remember a word about him being spoken on the show. They just stated Tori was boy crazy

[19 cats and counting]

I think Bobby will be introduced in their Valentines Day episode.  I also wonder how much they will focus on this relationship as opposed to Nathan and Ashley.

As for the girls 'keeping sweet.'  I will say (some of) the Bates girls seem a lot sassier than the Duggar girls.  Sure you get an eyeroll here or there from Jinger or Joy, but it seems to be beaten (literally or figuratively) out of them at a certain age (seems to be happening with Johannah now).  And I find the (post-pubescent) Duggar brother/sister interactions to be rather awkward (as if they are forced).  Josiah and Joy were the original Jackson and Johannah, and now they seem to barely interact (apparently pre TV this was also Jinger and Joseph). (Note-- a lot of the Duggar brother/sister separation is probably the result of Joshgate 1.0)

Now with the Bates, I see snarky/sassy remarks from Tori and Carlin and I also see brother/sister interaction more (this very well could be PR here).  Lawson and Josie (Bates) seem to be close.  There was one episode where Carlin made Nathan help her trim the fat off of chicken and that is just not something I see happening in the TTH.  Their sibling interactions seem natural as opposed to staged.  

I do realize I could be completely wrong because reality TV is anything but.  A casual observer of both families would probably realize the same thing.

[JermajestyDuggar]

42 minutes ago, HereticHick said:

I've always heard that at colleges with big Mormon populations (like BYU), lots of the Mormon couples get engaged before they graduate, and not a small number marry as well: http://universe.byu.edu/2013/02/12/by-i-do/

I don't know if this is common at "gentile" fundy schools like Crown or PCC or Bob Jones--or if the school dating rules are so restrictive (and there are no parents/siblings around to chaperone dates) its difficult to be engaged (or even courting) before you graduate.

This sort of thing makes me think that a lot of couples probably get married during college Because they are given no freedoms otherwise. Which probably leads to fast courtships and married couples that probably don't know one another well.

[nelliebelle1197]

3 hours ago, HereticHick said:

I could squee over Bradley Bates all day long.

But back to Tori's courtship--does anyone know if PCC has rules about courting/dating/being engaged without school approval? I thought Crown College had a rule about it, but I can't find it on their site now

I still take your Bradley Bates and raise you a little Stephen Anderson in fundie babie cuteness wars.