Duggars by the Dozenty!!11!!: The 20th (THREAD) Achieved!

[roddma]

Someone asked on FB the other day why aren't the boys featured much on DFO ? They weren't featured  much on 19K either  I guess they don't generate enough interest for viewers. The only posts they get on DFO are bday posts.

I hope this 'counselor' isnt the kind that inflicts guilt on Anna..

[nastyhobbitses]

2 hours ago, roddma said:

Someone asked on FB the other day why aren't the boys featured much on DFO ? They weren't featured  much on 19K either  I guess they don't generate enough interest for viewers. The only posts they get on DFO are bday posts.

I hope this 'counselor' isnt the kind that inflicts guilt on Anna..

Considering how the Duggars tend to view professional credentials (i.e. if you take a simple test and watch an incompetent hack nearly kill a baby or two, you're a fully certified midwife and you can practically run a NICU in your living room), I'm sure that the "professional" counselor is some Gothard disciple with a "totally legit counselor" diploma printed off a template in Microsoft Word who follows such sound psychology theories as "well maybe if you lost weight and put out more your husband would stop cheating on you" and "you told Jesus you were sorry so now none of the horrible things you did matter anymore and anyone who keeps harping on them is just harboring Satanic bitterness in their hearts" and "if you feel sad or angry, you are in league with Satan and should lock yourself in a closet until your husband decides to stop cheating on you".

[Ungodly Grandma]

9 hours ago, SportsgalAnnie said:

The Josh and Anna Statement seems pretty PR ish to me 

Yes, professionally written. for one thing, it was all spelled correctly.

8 hours ago, nst said:

can you imagine their counselling session ? 

"Well, it all started when Satan built a fortress in Josh's heart."

[Ungodly Grandma]

5 hours ago, theinvisiblegirl said:

That's the kind of counselor Josh and Anna would never see. A competent one would point out all the red flags. Josh can't possibly risk having Anna's mind warped by a non-fundie!

No, we can't have Anna's eyes opened.

7 hours ago, Bad Wolf said:

And as you know, @jesuscampsongs, not all licensed counsellors are great. Humble MSW here, I've come across the magnificent, and the ones I wouldn't send my dog to. I have to say, that most were hard working and competent.

Nothing humble about an MSW, to me. One helped me see my life was worth living, once.

[RosyDaisy]

I'm betting their counselor is someone from IBLP.

[JermajestyDuggar]

12 hours ago, JesusCampSongs said:

Are you a therapist, too?! I'm an LCSW. 

This is like "fuck, chuck, or marry" or "death is not an option."

Would you rather counsel:

1. someone in the middle of their twentieth heroin relapse
2. Josh and Anna
3. Michelle Duggar coming off a klonopin bender

 

I'm an LPC who is currently staying at home with my kids for a few years. 

And my answer is #1!!!! 

[JesusCampSongs]

13 hours ago, Bad Wolf said:

And as you know, @jesuscampsongs, not all licensed counsellors are great. Humble MSW here, I've come across the magnificent, and the ones I wouldn't send my dog to. I have to say, that most were hard working and competent.

Oh, definitely. There are people in every profession who suck at their jobs. I have noticed, though, that many of my MSW classmates I felt to be ill-suited to the field (for various reasons) have all washed out, and we graduated less than five years ago.  I've also seen baby therapists come and go at my agency for the same reason. I am therefore cautiously optimistic that therapists with questionable practices and bad attitudes tend to burn out and leave the field sooner or later. I hope. 

[Becket70]

We have a lot of family over for the holiday weekend and, lucky for us, the International Space Station was going to be over our area and visible for six minutes.  Because it is utterly cool and a great way to introduce kids to science, we researched the ISS online and later that evening went out to wait for its appearance.  While waiting, we pointed out Mars (won't be this close for another 30 years) and Jupiter.  Then, exactly as NASA said it would, the ISS appeared over the horizon at 8:42 PM and we were able to follow it for six minutes. This kids were in awe.  Later that evening I thought about the Duggar kids and whether they were able to see it.  I checked with Spotthestation.gov/NASA and learned that it would have been visible (IF it was a clear night) over their area for five minutes last night.   If they didn't see it, what a missed opportunity for those kids.  But there are so many missed opportunities...there is so much to learn.

[JesusCampSongs]

3 hours ago, RosyDaisy said:

I'm betting their counselor is someone from IBLP.

I think there are two possibilities:

1. Someone who is totally unlicensed and skirting title protection laws by referring to themselves as Christian counselors or mentors (like the Alexanders). Said "counselor" may or may not have a degree in "Christian Counseling" from a fundie diploma mill, but they almost certainly have no business attempting to practice psychotherapy. 
2. Someone who has a real degree and a real license, but attended a program like Liberty University's (don't get me started on them, seriously), did the bare minimum to obtain their independent license, and immediately departed the secular therapy field to become a Bible-based counselor. Doing that is super shady and probably unethical in most states, but once you're licensed, it's pretty easy to get away with that sort of thing if you fly under the radar.

I think that most legit therapists would have a difficult time working with the Duggar family long-term because their religious beliefs aren't conducive to meaningful change in a family system. As long as Anna is held accountable for Josh's behavior and the health of the marriage, I don't think there's much that even the best therapist on earth could do to address their issues. 

[FundieFarmer]

In the rule books of quite a few sports, you are considered a professional if you take money for coaching or playing- no matter how bad you are- and you must declare yourself as such. Maybe it's a situation like that....they're not REALLY accredited by anyone we would consider real, but they're just using the title since they get paid to do it.

[Ungodly Grandma]

19 minutes ago, FundieFarmer said:

In the rule books of quite a few sports, you are considered a professional if you take money for coaching or playing- no matter how bad you are- and you must declare yourself as such. Maybe it's a situation like that....they're not REALLY accredited by anyone we would consider real, but they're just using the title since they get paid to do it.

Maybe it's the midwife's husband. They offer Full Service Family Support. 

[nastyhobbitses]

41 minutes ago, JesusCampSongs said:

I think there are two possibilities:

1. Someone who is totally unlicensed and skirting title protection laws by referring to themselves as Christian counselors or mentors (like the Alexanders). Said "counselor" may or may not have a degree in "Christian Counseling" from a fundie diploma mill, but they almost certainly have no business attempting to practice psychotherapy. 
2. Someone who has a real degree and a real license, but attended a program like Liberty University's (don't get me started on them, seriously), did the bare minimum to obtain their independent license, and immediately departed the secular therapy field to become a Bible-based counselor. Doing that is super shady and probably unethical in most states, but once you're licensed, it's pretty easy to get away with that sort of thing if you fly under the radar.

I think that most legit therapists would have a difficult time working with the Duggar family long-term because their religious beliefs aren't conducive to meaningful change in a family system. As long as Anna is held accountable for Josh's behavior and the health of the marriage, I don't think there's much that even the best therapist on earth could do to address their issues. 

So like a lot of the dubious "midwives" out there in the fundie world, they're basically operating on the barest cusp of legality and through their incompetence and entrenchment in a damaging, misogynistic belief system, may very well destroy or help further destroy the families they claim to serve.

[EmCatlyn]

Josh and Anna could get "Christian Counseling" from trained and licensed or certified counselors in Arkansas.  Of course, we all know they probably won't, but just going down this list of Marriage Counselors in Arkansas from Psychology Today, you find are several Christian counselors.

Consider also the appropriately named Joshua Center not only offers marriage/couple therapy but children's play therapy and is connected to a non-denominational Christian Church and has offices in both Rogers and Fayetteville.

But I think Josh and Anna are more likely to be getting "help" from a place like Hope Biblical Counseling Center  or someone connected to an independent Baptist church such as Colonial Baptist Church which includes an RU chapter among its ministries.  

That being said, any counselor with some people-insight and a bit of training (so long as he is not obsessed with talk about rules and sins) might be able to help them communicate better and find a common ground from which their marriage can grow.

(I actually don't think that JB is their "professional counselor."  I think that just as they sent Josh away after the molestations and more recently to RU, the Duggars do turn to other fundies for help when the problem is big enough.)

[Mothership]

18 hours ago, nst said:

it reeks of a cover for people magazine and Anna wanting another kid

I hate those two 

PR move so that People will give them the cover story.   The story can talk about how they're "walking through" this time with a counselor.  Taking it day by day and all sort of therapy talk fed to them by their professional PR person.

I would love to think that they are getting real counseling that deals with everything in Josh's past.  That asks them to question all the choices made for them up until now.  If that was the case, I might actually want to read about it and/or watch them break away on a reality show.   In the meantime, I'm with @nst;  I hate those two!

[sophie10130]

1 hour ago, JesusCampSongs said:

I think there are two possibilities:

1. Someone who is totally unlicensed and skirting title protection laws by referring to themselves as Christian counselors or mentors (like the Alexanders). Said "counselor" may or may not have a degree in "Christian Counseling" from a fundie diploma mill, but they almost certainly have no business attempting to practice psychotherapy. 
2. Someone who has a real degree and a real license, but attended a program like Liberty University's (don't get me started on them, seriously), did the bare minimum to obtain their independent license, and immediately departed the secular therapy field to become a Bible-based counselor. Doing that is super shady and probably unethical in most states, but once you're licensed, it's pretty easy to get away with that sort of thing if you fly under the radar.

I think that most legit therapists would have a difficult time working with the Duggar family long-term because their religious beliefs aren't conducive to meaningful change in a family system. As long as Anna is held accountable for Josh's behavior and the health of the marriage, I don't think there's much that even the best therapist on earth could do to address their issues. 

I might want to get you started on them. I knew quite a few people from my old church that went there and I would LOVE to know how legit it is.

[Drala]

17 hours ago, JesusCampSongs said:

Are you a therapist, too?! I'm an LCSW. 

This is like "fuck, chuck, or marry" or "death is not an option."

Would you rather counsel:

1. someone in the middle of their twentieth heroin relapse
2. Josh and Anna
3. Michelle Duggar coming off a klonopin bender

 

LISW here.  I used to do crisis intervention in a psych ED.  Michelle Duggar coming off a klonapin bender sounds eerily familiar, but I'm sure I never worked in Arkansas.   Must have been one of Michelle's spiritual sisters.

[nst]

1 hour ago, Mothership said:

PR move so that People will give them the cover story.   The story can talk about how they're "walking through" this time with a counselor.  Taking it day by day and all sort of therapy talk fed to them by their professional PR person.

I would love to think that they are getting real counseling that deals with everything in Josh's past.  That asks them to question all the choices made for them up until now.  If that was the case, I might actually want to read about it and/or watch them break away on a reality show.   In the meantime, I'm with @nst;  I hate those two!

and what sickens me is so many things.  But the molestation and the cover up are number one by him and his parents. I could care less he cheated on Anna, but the fact that she stays is just horrid and how she maintains her life is greater is so sickening.  And again the lesson she shows her daughters.  I never ever want to hear from her about marriage or babies again. 

[theinvisiblegirl]

2 hours ago, EmCatlyn said:

Josh and Anna could get "Christian Counseling" from trained and licensed or certified counselors in Arkansas.  Of course, we all know they probably won't, but just going down this list of Marriage Counselors in Arkansas from Psychology Today, you find are several Christian counselors.

Consider also the appropriately named Joshua Center not only offers marriage/couple therapy but children's play therapy and is connected to a non-denominational Christian Church and has offices in both Rogers and Fayetteville.

But I think Josh and Anna are more likely to be getting "help" from a place like Hope Biblical Counseling Center  or someone connected to an independent Baptist church such as Colonial Baptist Church which includes an RU chapter among its ministries.  

That being said, any counselor with some people-insight and a bit of training (so long as he is not obsessed with talk about rules and sins) might be able to help them communicate better and find a common ground from which their marriage can grow.

(I actually don't think that JB is their "professional counselor."  I think that just as they sent Josh away after the molestations and more recently to RU, the Duggars do turn to other fundies for help when the problem is big enough.)

Great sleuthing!

The counseling center's website has a thing about dealing with bitterness. Interestingly enough, I discovered Homeschooler's Anonymous for the first time today and read some of their Duggar articles. Around the time of Joshgate 1, someone posted on there referencing the type of help ATI would give to victims. One of the worksheets had to do with bitterness, and clicking on it brought me to the full Gothard booklet called Booklet on Deliverance from Bitterness. What's on the center's website is similar to what ATI teaches, so I could see them maybe going there. Of course, with the RU connection, the church probably has a lot of appeal to them.

[nastyhobbitses]

So wait, is Satan's stronghold of bitterness the same fortress Satan builds in your heart and uses to convince you to download porn? Because I'm just imagining a castle like in the French Taunting scene in Monty Python and the Holy Grail, with Satan leaning over the stockade going "PORN IS FUN!"

[RosyDaisy]

Josh and Anna are probably getting counseling from some IBLP Christian counseling service.

[SilverBeach]

On 5/26/2016 at 10:30 PM, Geechee Girl said:

Our Sunday best was similar to these hats.

Yes! Missionary Baptist and pastor's wives finest! Nobody could wear a hat more magnificent than the one worn by the PW.  Ashro sells suits to match the hats, I get their catalog from time to time.

There was a play called Crowns which was about black women and their bold and beautiful millinery. I would love to see it.

I remember wearing white gloves as an usher at the MB church way back in the day. And I loved my patent leather MJs, shined up with a little Vaseline.

.

[JesusCampSongs]

3 hours ago, sophie10130 said:

I might want to get you started on them. I knew quite a few people from my old church that went there and I would LOVE to know how legit it is.

Their counseling program is not well-regarded-- along with most of their degree programs, I'd imagine. What started off as a fundie-lite-evangelical college to educate the professional class of conservative Christianity has become a sucking diploma mill that's firmly attached to the government teat. While they're technically accredited and non-profit, they receive an unbelievable amount of money from the federal government in the form of need-based grants and GI funding to cover the cost of their exorbitant tuition for students who aren't always qualified to be admitted into their selected programs of study. It's well-known that they'll let pretty much anyone who can pay into the online programs. In this field, that is a Very Bad Thing, as a lot of people try to go into it with (usually) good intentions, but either haven't worked out their own biases and prejudices  or dealt with their own issues enough to where they can practice effectively and ethically. Gatekeeping into this profession is a good and necessary thing-- if anything, we need more of it, not less-- and online programs that don't vet their students undermine that. 

In addition to that, everything Liberty teaches is infused with evangelical Christianity, and while that may not be a big deal in some professions, in mine, it's setting their students up for serious practice issues and ethics violations in the future. While working with someone's belief system can help the therapeutic process, Christianity is not an evidence-based practice by itself. You can't just tell someone they need to get right with God and everything will be okay, or use conversion as a treatment goal, or anything like that. It's also really unethical to set yourself up as an authority on religion and god because of the power differential, and imposing your own values on your clients is an ethical violation on its own. Also, billing on a modality that's not evidence-based constitutes insurance fraud--and woe bedtide you if that client's insurance is Medicare or Medicaid. There are also issues with professional licensure that go along with this; it's not ethical to advertise yourself as an LPC and then do things in session that violate the profession's ethical standards. 

I've personally had interactions with counseling interns from there, and they had serious deficits in both clinical knowledge and professionalism. One was so bad that I'm pretty sure my company won't take interns from there anymore. And while I can't say that every clinician that ever came out of that program is a bad therapist, I'd be extremely reluctant to hire someone with a degree from there, or even associate myself with them, professionally speaking, without vetting them a lot more thoroughly than someone who went to a secular program.

I'm not entirely sure what the CACREP folks were smoking when they accredited Liberty's program last year, but I definitely want to try it.

[Denim Jumper]

My husband went to Liberty; I tease him mercilessly about it. Actually, quite a few people from his old church went there. One in particular got her nursing degree through Liberty, and when she came back here to liberal NY, it took her some 2 years to get a job (which is unheard of), because of the school's reputation.

[sophie10130]

thanks @JesusCampSongs!! I have my own issues with Liberty, but I did not realize that they were not liked in fields. It makes me feel better knowing that. Because it seems like the church and everyone I knew who went there of course talked about it like it was the best place ever and everyone loves them because they know they have great morals and blah blah blah

[Toothfairy]

No way they're see a real therapist. That requires real work. That requires Josh to take responsibility for his actions. That requires Anna to not be a fundie wife and take his shit. They're probably seeing a unlicensed fundie therapist or lied.