Duggars by the Dozenty!!11!!: The 20th (THREAD) Achieved!

[FundieFarmer]

Well, FJ has officially reached the 20th thread...Michelle and Kelly must be fuming. 

Carrying on from here: 

 

[Bad Wolf]

I was trying to figure out whether a woman should remove her hat during the posting of the colors or the National Anthem.  Our band will be playing on Memorial Day at a Veterans' Cemetery, and I will be wearing a baseball cap because it's outside in the sun (or snow, you can never tell around here.) Anyway, in my research I came across this, and the Duggars immediately came to mind. 

Much older records of etiquette professionals than Miss Manners provides, state that women must be allowed to keep their hats on because when a woman takes off her hat, her hair and possibly more of her flesh will be exposed.  This will cause the men around to think lustful thoughts and thus they will be unable to focus on contemplations of patriotism or in church, unable to fully give their attentions to learning about God.  So in this case, baseball caps should still remain on for women, lest they cause all the men around to be distracted.

Mods, feel free to move this if it's in the wrong place.

[theinvisiblegirl]

33 minutes ago, Bad Wolf said:

I was trying to figure out whether a woman should remove her hat during the posting of the colors or the National Anthem.  Our band will be playing on Memorial Day at a Veterans' Cemetery, and I will be wearing a baseball cap because it's outside in the sun (or snow, you can never tell around here.) Anyway, in my research I came across this, and the Duggars immediately came to mind. 

Much older records of etiquette professionals than Miss Manners provides, state that women must be allowed to keep their hats on because when a woman takes off her hat, her hair and possibly more of her flesh will be exposed.  This will cause the men around to think lustful thoughts and thus they will be unable to focus on contemplations of patriotism or in church, unable to fully give their attentions to learning about God.  So in this case, baseball caps should still remain on for women, lest they cause all the men around to be distracted.

Mods, feel free to move this if it's in the wrong place.

Did Bill Gothard write this? 

[nst]

I thought you meant funny comments by the people here - not by the Duggars

those I don't keep

 

[AmazonGrace]

Just WHERE are those ladies wearing their baseball caps if removing them exposes their flesh?

[BabyBottlePop]

9 minutes ago, AmazonGrace said:

Just WHERE are those ladies wearing their baseball caps if removing them exposes their flesh?

Oh you know, between my legs like a leaf. 

[Bad Wolf]

34 minutes ago, AmazonGrace said:

Just WHERE are those ladies wearing their baseball caps if removing them exposes their flesh?

Showing a little forehead perhaps, or gasp neck. I can see where the men would be defrauded. Maybe this is why Gothard girls have to have long hair.

[2manyKidzzz]

Plan ahead, Bad Wolf, NO DEFRAUDING!!!!!

 

Never thought about women removing hats for the Star Spangled Banner. Never thought about it. 

[nastyhobbitses]

2 hours ago, Bad Wolf said:

I was trying to figure out whether a woman should remove her hat during the posting of the colors or the National Anthem.  Our band will be playing on Memorial Day at a Veterans' Cemetery, and I will be wearing a baseball cap because it's outside in the sun (or snow, you can never tell around here.) Anyway, in my research I came across this, and the Duggars immediately came to mind. 

Much older records of etiquette professionals than Miss Manners provides, state that women must be allowed to keep their hats on because when a woman takes off her hat, her hair and possibly more of her flesh will be exposed.  This will cause the men around to think lustful thoughts and thus they will be unable to focus on contemplations of patriotism or in church, unable to fully give their attentions to learning about God.  So in this case, baseball caps should still remain on for women, lest they cause all the men around to be distracted.

Mods, feel free to move this if it's in the wrong place.

I always assumed that ladies kept their hats on because unlike men's hats, they were/are often affixed to the head with pins, making them hard/inconvenient to take off and then correctly reposition when it came time to put them back on. Though Emily Post says that unisex hats (i.e. baseball caps) should be taken off.

[Trynn]

That was why we female grads didn't remove our caps during prayer like the men: all those bobby pins!

[FundieFarmer]

I was taught that women left hats on because they were often thoughtful parts of ensembles that would muss the hair if removed! I usually include baseball caps in that but apparently I'm defying my own beloved Emily Post. Ack!

[MargaretElliott]

16 hours ago, AmazonGrace said:

Just WHERE are those ladies wearing their baseball caps if removing them exposes their flesh?

Cue "You Can Leave Your Hat On" from The Full Monty... 

[EmCatlyn]

16 hours ago, nastyhobbitses said:

I always assumed that ladies kept their hats on because unlike men's hats, they were/are often affixed to the head with pins, making them hard/inconvenient to take off and then correctly reposition when it came time to put them back on. Though Emily Post says that unisex hats (i.e. baseball caps) should be taken off.

The academic cap is also "unisex" but women are not expected to take it off.  This may be, as @Trynn points out because many times women use bobby pins to keep them in place. (I don't.  Did you know that a couple of bits of velcro --the spiney side-- inside the cap will keep it in place without bobby pins?)  

The idea that a woman might distract a man if she takes off her hat and shows her neck or lets her hair down (the original quote from @Bad Wolf) tells us more about the times when it was written (and the prejudices of the writer) than about the reasons for exempting women from removing their hats.

Customs and etiquette rules don't have simple explanations. They evolve over time, and each  generation explains the custom or rule in its own way.  

At the roots of the "hat" rule is the idea of showing respect.  From the Middle Ages onward, men removed their headcoverings to show respect.    During the same period, women showed humility by covering their heads.  (Humility may be seen as respect for others.)  As fashions have changed and evolved, women's headgear, unlike men's, has not been designed for easy removal.  

I have never removed my hat for the national anthem or prayer.  There was a time (before Vatican II) when I wore head coverings in church.  I was told that it was out of respect. 

But the reason women covered their heads out of respect (humility) has its roots in the association of women's hair with sexual attractiveness.  A woman whose head was covered was presumably not trying to attract attention, was indicating that she wasn't sexually available, and would not distract the men.  

Sometimes the problem with the Gothardite view of things is that it is uncomfortably close to the way mainstream culture viewed men and women not that long ago. ATI oversimplifies and codifies practices and assumptions which are part of our past or even present culture.

[nastyhobbitses]

Getting back to the topic of the Duggars, Jessa just posted a video of The Spurge playing with his teddy bear. He bounces it around, stares at it rapturously for a second, slobbers all over it, pulls it away from his mouth, and makes fart noises. It's super adorable, but it's also a perfect representation of so many makeout sessions I had in college.

[EmmieJ]

I laughed at her comment: "that didn't taste as good as I thought it would." 

[HereticHick]

So what are we calling this 20th Blessing?  J'Thread?

[Avalondaughter]

I always knew that me. We're supposed to remove hats indoors, but women were supposed to leave their hats on.  This was especially true for churches.  It seems up until the 20th century, women were practically requires to wear hats in church.  I think there are still some churches where hats are a big deal.

When I was in high school there was a huge hat crackdown for the boys.  The rules about hat wearing in the building got pretty strict.  We girls who liked to wear hats as part of our quirky ensembles got a free pass.   The boys resented that and eventually the rule applied to girls too.  

I remember a stodgy history prof in college who made men remove hats in class.  Sometimes he would just walk by a hat wearing student and just knock the hat off his head.

i always thought that in Europe it was common for women to wear hats in church.  When I was in Europe last summer, I toured many churches.  It was sunny and I wore a tasteful straw hat all the time.  I always brought a cardigan with me. To cover bare shoulders and never wore shorts, but I'd still get evil looks and a request to remove my hat.  It always surprised me.

[Fundie Bunny]

45 minutes ago, Avalondaughter said:

I always knew that me. We're supposed to remove hats indoors, but women were supposed to leave their hats on.  This was especially true for churches.  It seems up until the 20th century, women were practically requires to wear hats in church.  I think there are still some churches where hats are a big deal.

When I was in high school there was a huge hat crackdown for the boys.  The rules about hat wearing in the building got pretty strict.  We girls who liked to wear hats as part of our quirky ensembles got a free pass.   The boys resented that and eventually the rule applied to girls too.  

I remember a stodgy history prof in college who made men remove hats in class.  Sometimes he would just walk by a hat wearing student and just knock the hat off his head.

i always thought that in Europe it was common for women to wear hats in church.  When I was in Europe last summer, I toured many churches.  It was sunny and I wore a tasteful straw hat all the time.  I always brought a cardigan with me. To cover bare shoulders and never wore shorts, but I'd still get evil looks and a request to remove my hat.  It always surprised me.

The hat thing is just in the church of england. And about covering knees and shoulders, i have only ever encountered it in italy, in big historic cathedrals. It killed me, they can cover up the abuse of children all over the world, but they can't handle my knees

[HereticHick]

1 hour ago, Fundie Bunny said:

The hat thing is just in the church of england. And about covering knees and shoulders, i have only ever encountered it in italy, in big historic cathedrals. It killed me, they can cover up the abuse of children all over the world, but they can't handle my knees

I've encountered it in Greek Orthodox churches as well. And mosques, of course!

[Ungodly Grandma]

2 hours ago, Fundie Bunny said:

The hat thing is just in the church of england. And about covering knees and shoulders, i have only ever encountered it in italy, in big historic cathedrals. It killed me, they can cover up the abuse of children all over the world, but they can't handle my knees

Hats were required in the Catholic Church when I was a child. Even to the point where some ladies would bobby pin a little round lace mantilla, or even a tissue to their hair. I stopped going to mass around the time I graduated Catholic HS, so not sure when that change happened.

[Fundie Bunny]

1 hour ago, Ungodly Grandma said:

Hats were required in the Catholic Church when I was a child. Even to the point where some ladies would bobby pin a little round lace mantilla, or even a tissue to their hair. I stopped going to mass around the time I graduated Catholic HS, so not sure when that change happened.

I've only seen the veil thing in old movies, maybe when my grandma was young. I haven't seen it because i'm pretty young, but i think, this stopped in the 60's or so

[Ungodly Grandma]

4 minutes ago, Fundie Bunny said:

I've only seen the veil thing in old movies, maybe when my grandma was young. I haven't seen it because i'm pretty young, but i think, this stopped in the 60's or so

Probably post Vatican II. In fact I can no longer remember if it went on while I was in HS, 69-73.

[MoonFace]

2 hours ago, Ungodly Grandma said:

Hats were required in the Catholic Church when I was a child. Even to the point where some ladies would bobby pin a little round lace mantilla, or even a tissue to their hair. I stopped going to mass around the time I graduated Catholic HS, so not sure when that change happened.

I remember having to pin a piece of tissue to the top of my head to go in to a Catholic church.    It never made sense to me that a used kleenex was acceptable on your head .......

[theinvisiblegirl]

I'm so glad the church got rid of the hat rules. The only hat I look remotely nice in is a baseball hat anyway.

[Ungodly Grandma]

14 minutes ago, MoonFace said:

I remember having to pin a piece of tissue to the top of my head to go in to a Catholic church.    It never made sense to me that a used kleenex was acceptable on your head .......

Lol I don't think it was supposed to be used>