Ken Alexander thinks molestation/incest are totally normal ~ Always Learning

[usmcmom]

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That is great to know Karen. The people I try to coach are around the US, not necessarily in our area

You know what I think?  I think the couples that Ken "mentors" are either bloggers or commenters onother blogs. I think he considers his comments to be counseling, coaching, mentoring....whatever his word of the day is. There is no way he has a therapist/client relationship with these people. All their talk of mentoring through emails, texts and phone calls has always irked me 

Ken is a dangerous man with predatory tendencies, in my opinion. He is also delusional. I really hope he is not ever allowed to interact with the young orthodontia patients at the offices in which he consults. 

[polecat]

16 hours ago, Hisey said:

They saw this type of behavior as normal and common place, and we in the US are so opposed to it that the child who has this happen to them feels much more violated than one who knows it is happening to almost everyone in their home. 

 

What in the HELL, Ken?! 

 

[polecat]

7 hours ago, refugee said:

This is actually a fairly common teaching in the Titus2 world. Where does it originate? Anybody know? Did it first come from the Pearls, or someone else?

 

It was being taught more than 20 years ago when I was at "Bible college*," and they were not using Pearl materials. I think this teaching has been around a long, long time and probably originated with fundie men who wanted to make sure they always got it when they wanted it. I've never heard the opposite teaching -- that men should put out when women wanted it, nor have I heard much teaching on men making an effort to please their wives.

[Emilycharlotte]

1 hour ago, polecat said:

What in the HELL, Ken?! 

 

I guess during the Holocaust it was a great comfort to Jewish people to know that their family, friends and neighbors were also being exterminated. Heck, if everyone in your family was also in the concentration camp, it would actually seem pretty normal to you, right?  You just need to keep a positive attitude!

[Loveday]

Ken decided to leave a question Kevin asked Dave yesterday:

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Dave, to me what destroys faith more is the picking and choosing of which scripture passages we want to believe and which are okay to ignore. By whos authority do you choose what in scripture to believe and what to ignore?

 

Took him nine hours to come up with an answer, but Ken finally managed it:

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Kevin there is a well established set of principles for interpreting scripture. While no scripture is to be ignored, context most often tells us how applicable the verses are to our Christian lives. How often it is repeated tells us the weight or emphasis the passage or thought deserves. 

What gets many in trouble is the desire to over emphasize passages of scripture that are said only once, maybe twice, and under-emphasize the things spoken about multiple times. Just like in any good communication or lecture, God being the perfect Communicator, he would make clear to His children what is most important and expect we will obey them. 

Consider context and number of times that something is found in the scriptures and read things as literally as you can unless the passage is obviously an illustration or figurative, and we can understand the Bible as well as any other novel or book. If the Word of God has "all we need for life and godliness," it must be relatively transparent as to what God intended to be said. The idea that it is complicated or difficult to understand is simply not true. Those who advocate this often are not reading it much or seeking to learn it.

Yep. We only read once about older women teaching younger women, and many times about helping the poor, the homeless, the sick, etc...good to see Lori following your rule of Scripture exegesis, Ken. 

[Hisey]

4 hours ago, polecat said:

What in the HELL, Ken?! 

 

Ken is talking about incest, right? So use the word "incest", Ken!

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They saw this type of behavior as normal and common place, and we in the US are so opposed to it that the child who has this happen to them feels much more violated than one who knows it is happening to almost everyone in their home. 

What he is saying is:

They saw incest as normal and commonplace and we in the US are so opposed to incest that the child who has been molested by a relative feels much more violated than the one who knows incest is happening to almost everyone in their home.

[Curious]

20 hours ago, Loveday said:

I am sorry if I brought too much reality to this subject, but my intent was to simply say that it is how one views and deals with their past sexual relationships that makes them feel shamed or the victim, not so much what actually happened. 

I got that far and couldn't read anymore.   Molestation is NOT a "sexual relationship,"  it's ABUSE.

Ken you are disgusting.  I really hope the people you work with see the kind of views you have and run away from you as fast as they can. 

I can't even coherently type right now I'm so upset/disgusted.

[polecat]

33 minutes ago, Hisey said:

Ken is talking about incest, right? So use the word "incest", Ken!

What he is saying is:

They saw incest as normal and commonplace and we in the US are so opposed to incest that the child who has been molested by a relative feels much more violated than the one who knows incest is happening to almost everyone in their home.

 

 

I know what he's saying, and I don't even have words for the feelings his words bring to me.

What I will say is: When I was being hurt, it did not comfort me one whit to know that my sister was also being hurt. It brought me no peace to know that my friends might also be being hurt in their homes. Just because abuse is normalized doesn't make it any less abusive. In fact, normalizing abuse, imo, can actually make even that much more fucked up because it causes you to question your own perception of it, your own sense of reality -- I FEEL like it's bad, but everyone else is acting like it's okay, so maybe *I* am the one with the issues. MY response is wrong -- not the abuse, therefore I am the bad one, not the abuser. How anyone can't see how utterly fucked up that is is beyond me. But then again, I guess if one is an abuser, that's exactly the kind of lesson they want to impart.

I want to write white-hot, rage-filled words to him, but he is ignorant and abusive and evil and not worthy of my emotional energy. But I do hope that no one is reading him and taking his ignorance seriously, that they do not shove any abuse in their family under the rug thinking that by minimizing it they're somehow doing the best for their children. It is OKAY and even healthy to tell your children that if they were molested or abused that it is a big fucking deal and they are RIGHT to feel angry and hurt and that you will help them get through it. It is NOT OKAY to make them stifle those feelings just so that you can feel more comfortable with the abuse.

These fundies who live, breathe and celebrate abuse with every step they take ... you are whited sepulchres, full of dead men's bones, you may look beautiful with your modest clothing and your submissive marriages and your obedient children, but your lives are filthy and evil and sinful and full of all manner of uncleanness. You will face God and justice one day, and you will get what you deserve.

[Curious]

I split this off into it's own topic.  It's too important to be buried in the regular Lori Alexander thread, IMO.

[formergothardite]

I have pretty low expectations for Ken Alexander, but his treatment of children being molested is just shocking. There is no world in which children being molested should be considered normal. There is something very wrong with Ken Alexander because normal people don't try to find ways to downplay child abuse and blame the child for feeling upset at the abuse.

 

[EmiGirl]

So we know what church they attend and supposedly mentor through, right? Should someone who has figured it out (I remember someone posted the link to the church in a previous thread ) alert the church pastor about this? Seems like they would want to know if someone heavily involved in the church body is a molestation apologist. I know my pastor would want to know!

[apandaaries]

How the hell can these two continue to espouse such horrific abuse?  They claim to be involved in their church (though tithing is for others, not them), but what church could support these hideously abusive ideas without some kind of word or rebuke? If I were a pastor and knew members of my flock were normalizing molestation and incest, claiming it's not a big deal, I would be very concerned.  

Thanks, Curious, for using your evil Google Tactics to give Ken Alexander, defender of molestation and incest, his own discussion line and title.  May the Google forces use it well and may his clients, coworkers, and friends stumble upon his abhorrent views, then treat him accordingly. 

There is not enough sulphur and brimstone in the world for those two.  Maybe in the afterworld, though... One can hope. 

[feministxtian]

Kenori makes me want to SCREAM! It would almost be worth the drive to San Diego and find them to confront them in person. As an abuse survivor who had years of dysfunction and "normalizing" it due to a family who didn't believe me...I know how fucked up I am. This asshole thinks it's no big deal well...either he's an abuser or survivor...who hasn't dealt with it. 

[Iamhispurity]

Ken knows nothing.

He does not know the shame and self-hatred a lot of victims feel. The confusion. The hurt. The feeling of not going to be able to trust ever again. The loss of what should be the safest enviroment of all - family. The disbelieve others are going to express when you tell them. The inability to relate to others healthily. The fear of men/women.... The sadness. The despair. The isolation. The betrayal of other family members that might know, but keep quit if only to keep the white picket fence white. The impossibiloty to speak about it. The terror. The flashbacks. Never feeling really clean. Feeling like you lose your mind. Damages that no therapy can ever heal. Hatred. Loneliness. Trying to forgive, but being unable to. Always asking: why? Never knowing. Losing a sense of self. Wanting closeness, but not being able to endure it. Thinking ones selfworth is purely sexual. Becoming a victim all over again.

So: FUCK YOU! 

 

 

 

[TeddyBonkers]

13 hours ago, refugee said:

This is actually a fairly common teaching in the Titus2 world. Where does it originate? Anybody know?

 

snipped for berevity.

I think part of it comes from 1 Corinthians 7:4 "The wife does not have authority over her own body but yields it to her husband. In the same way, the husband does not have authority over his own body but yields it to his wife." Of course, `Ken and his ilk completely ignore the second part of the verse and focus solely on the first part. 

[formergothardite]

I'm sure that there are probably a scary amount of people who actually believe like Ken. But, most of those sorts of people realize that society frowns on acting like incest and children being molested is normal, everyday occurrence . Most people who believe those things aren't going to blab it all over the internet using their real name. But Ken did. I guess it is good that he made it clear what sort of monster he is, but how delusional does he have to be to think that posting things like that is a wise idea? 

[apandaaries]

1 hour ago, formergothardite said:

Most people who believes those things aren't going to blab it all over the internet using their real name. But Ken did. I guess it is good that he made it clear what sort of monster he is, but how delusional does he have to be to think that posting things like that is a wise idea? 

Maybe he saw that horrible post on xoJane about being happy that her "friend" with mental illness died, got confused, and thought it was "show your ass on the Internet" day.  Both of those posts take and defend some scary and horrific positions, then stand by their horrible ideas. 

[usmcmom]

1 hour ago, TeddyBonkers said:

snipped for berevity.

I think part of it comes from 1 Corinthians 7:4 "The wife does not have authority over her own body but yields it to her husband. In the same way, the husband does not have authority over his own body but yields it to his wife." Of course, `Ken and his ilk completely ignore the second part of the verse and focus solely on the first part. 

Remember Cabinet Man's crass "get her off 80% of the time" doctrine?  Ken was glaringly silent on that.  Cabinet Man shut down ship soon after. I think there were several reasons he went into hiding but that post got him a lot of attention all over the Internet. He never answered the questions regarding how he reconciled that disgusting advice to actual scripture. 

As for Ken and his latest garbage, I don't know how far we can go with our speculations but that man never seems to pass up a chance to say the wrong thing. Of course, he does not see it as wrong, but in this case he is just so disgusting and frightening I don't even know what to say. I will just say again that the man is dangerous.  

[Honeysuckle]

23 hours ago, Loveday said:

Ken posted: [...]We too often have a Westernized and somewhat sanitized view of things when the reality is that unless a parent is ever watchful and somewhat protective, kids will play with each other and get into trouble. No one seems to pay much attention when two 12 year olds play doctor, and generally there are no lasting emotional scars from the experience so long as it was consensual and no coercion or power play involved. [...]

Okay, I don't know why I'm picking on this out of all the reprehensible filth he posted, but what the fuck. I would be extremely concerned if a 12-year old child without any severe delays was playing doctor. That's something that an almost-teenager should have outgrown.

Taking an excerpt from an Ask Dr. Sears column here:
 

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What’s normal? General Curiosity. Children are curious, especially about differences, and what could be more fascinating than different genitals? Understand this situation for what it is—normal childhood curiosity at work. It needs sensitive understanding to prevent it from reoccurring. Get behind the eyes of your child. He wants to learn what the other sex looks and feels like. The child is more interested in satisfying curiosity than in sexual arousal. You can tell innocent sexual curiosity from deviant sexual behavior by these characteristics. Innocent acts are occurring when:

Children are young (under age seven), close in age, and know each other.

There is mutual agreement; one child is not forcing the other.

There is usually a game-like atmosphere: playing “doctor” or “I’ll show you mine if you show me yours.”

Secrecy is part of the game. As if sensing their parents would disapprove, children retreat into a bedroom, garage, or a private place. (This is true for deviant acts as well.)

 

Twelve-year olds do not normally do this. Ken is full of shit.

[FloraKitty35]

On 5/20/2016 at 5:00 PM, Loveday said:

We too often have a Westernized and somewhat sanitized view of things when the reality is that unless a parent is ever watchful and somewhat protective, kids will play with each other and get into trouble. No one seems to pay much attention when two 12 year olds play doctor, and generally there are no lasting emotional scars from the experience so long as it was consensual and no coercion or power play involved. 

Ken, 12 year old children playing "doctor" with each other is just creepy and wildly inappropriate! 

[Shiny]

Ken is a fucking waste of life, much like his wife. Seriously, I've read some fucked up shit from these two, but this is the worst. He needs have his rights to children taken away, and I would be very concerned for his grandchildren. 

[samira_catlover]

Do not dare to try and analyze Ken's comments concerning molestation and/or incest in-depth, because they'll throw me out of McD's really fast, and I am also right on the edge of doing so much rage-driven gawd-damage that I'll never get out of hell.

(snipped from KA quote on page 1, hidden behind spoiler IIRC; bolding is mine): >>In many cultures there can be things done sexually between children that would cross the line for our once Christianized culture. I fear that as time goes on we are finding our own culture running headlong backwards into the heathenism of our past. Take for instance sex that was strongly forbidden before marriage and now is commonplace in the high schools and even happening in Junior High and younger. Sex Ed only pushes kids to want to explore more because the teacher rarely defines the behavior as wrong.<<

Count me as another one who wants Major Citations and Statistics, please. The following scholarly article indicates USA white premarital pregnancy rates (first births) running under 10% in the 17th century, about 10% in the mid-19th century, and peaking in second half of 18th century (about 30%).   Sorry, couldn't do a cut-and-paste or attach copy directly.

THAT was back in the days where the Bible was used as a textbook in many public schools, LONG before mass media and the internet, and where most people identified (at least nominally) as Christian.

Premarital Pregnancy in America 1640-1971: An Overview and Interpretation

Daniel Scott Smith and Michael S. Hindus

The Journal of Interdisciplinary History

Vol. 5, No. 4, The History of the Family, II (Spring, 1975), pp. 537-570

Published by: The MIT Press

http://www.jstor.org/stable/202859?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents

Now, please excuse me, I have to rage-scream and head-desk a bit.

 

[peachykeen]

So, molesting children and condoning child abuse is considered normal to the Alexander's. Yet a low cut top, non submissive wives and Transgender bathrooms are completely not ok. There is some incredibly dark reasoning happening here, that says more about Ken than I think he realised. It is absolutely reprehensible that he thinks any abuse would be considered par for the course. Victims feel violated because they are violated. This is an all time low even for Alexander's. I'm struggling to write coherent sentences because my rage is taking over. What an absolute piece of shit. There is far too much emphasis on depraved things in that household. Sure, sprinkle some scripture in there to make it look like you are all holy and righteous. but for every post made to condone abuse, be it sexual or physical and there have been many, serves to expose who they really are. Do they think it is fooling anyone?

Here Ken, let me give you a sanitising high five in the face with a chair. 

[EyeQueue]

On 5/20/2016 at 1:15 PM, Hisey said:

Where I grew up my friends would ask me if I molested my sisters, because for them it was common place with the older sister often molesting the younger brother, etc. 

On what planet do older sisters "often" molest younger brothers? Isn't most molestation male on female? Why is he deflecting here by making it sound like girls totes molest as much as boys do?

What a disgusting piece of filth to normalize this.

[SilverBeach]

Fucking unbelievable. Just unbelievable. Just when you think you have heard the most disgusting nonsense ever (girls are ready for marriage when their breasts develop), here comes another fundie asshole spewing shit. Fuck him, fuckhead bastard that he is.

Fucking sexual abuse is not normal in any way. Grrrrrrrrrrr.........

That gotdamn son-of-a-motherflucker is trying to justify his own shit or somebody close to him. 

It's Saturday  night. I need wine and plenty of it.