Escaping Polygamy - Mainly Kingston Clan - Otherwise Known as "The Order"

[SilverBeach]

15 minutes ago, Diana said:

Marrying a cousin is not something that abnormal it used to be very common until 100 years ago and it still happens with normal people not growing up in sects. I guess its weirder because in that family there is so much imbreeding already that its more likely they will pass a genetic disease on to their kids, but since they live in a closed comunity where everybody is related two cousins falling in love its not that hard to understand.

Marrying first cousins is still weird to me, I can't imagine marrying any of mine. At 61, I am unaware of any first cousin marriages in my family. However, I would take a somewhat attractive first cousin my age over a dried up old fuck where I'm his xteenth wife. In her situation, the yuk factor diminishes somewhat because of lack of choice, but damn. Still hard to understand because I felt no sexual attraction at all towards any of my first, second, or third cousins for that matter.

[Diana]

1 hour ago, SilverBeach said:

Marrying first cousins is still weird to me, I can't imagine marrying any of mine. At 61, I am unaware of any first cousin marriages in my family. However, I would take a somewhat attractive first cousin my age over a dried up old fuck where I'm his xteenth wife. In her situation, the yuk factor diminishes somewhat because of lack of choice, but damn. Still hard to understand because I felt no sexual attraction at all towards any of my first, second, or third cousins for that matter.

 Maybe you had a more fraternal relationship with your cousins growing up so it makes it weirder to you. I had a friend in college who dated her first cousin  and she was not sheltered and didnt lack of other choices, they both were young adults when they fell in love for each other, it happens. And i don't think there was anything wrong with it,  some people made stupid jokes to them when they found out but thats because there is those sayings in spanish about cousins getting too close and people found it funny, nobody thought they were sick or doing something weird, only their parents werent very happy about it because they worried about the damage that a break up could do to the family relationship.

Also if it werent for a marriage between first cousins i wouldnt exist since one of my ancestors were cousins(that i know about, there was probably others since it was something common), i dont know if they loved each other because it was other times and marriage was not about love as much, but i know they were happy together and had healthy children without pig tails. 

 

Edited August 31, 2016 by Diana

[DaisyD]

I've found a number of first cousin marriages in the early 1600's in my line. I'm almost certain it was lack of options at that time. There's a strong possibility that my parents are very distant cousins (the family divergence being in like 1710). Doing genealogy you start to realize that we're all related one way or another. 

That being said the only modern occurrence of first cousins marrying was my bil and his cousin. They weren't raised in the same state, so it's not like they were ever close growing up. In my state first cousins is only legal if the couple is incapable of bearing children. She'd had a hysterectomy, so they were able to marry. I'm not aware of any lasting family rifts from the breakup of that relationship and it got pretty volatile at the end.

I imagine in The Order being allowed to marry a cousin is miles better than the other options (sibling or uncle).

[SilverBeach]

10 hours ago, Diana said:

 Maybe you had a more fraternal relationship with your cousins growing up so it makes it weirder to you. I had a friend in college who dated her first cousin  and she was not sheltered and didnt lack of other choices, they both were young adults when they fell in love for each other, it happens. And i don't think there was anything wrong with it,  some people made stupid jokes to them when they found out but thats because there is those sayings in spanish about cousins getting too close and people found it funny, nobody thought they were sick or doing something weird, only their parents werent very happy about it because they worried about the damage that a break up could do to the family relationship.

Also if it werent for a marriage between first cousins i wouldnt exist since one of my ancestors were cousins(that i know about, there was probably others since it was something common), i dont know if they loved each other because it was other times and marriage was not about love as much, but i know they were happy together and had healthy children without pig tails. 

 

OK. I appreciate your defense of first cousin marriages although I will never agree with it. Aunts becoming mothers in law, etc...too damn complicated. And the genetic risk is real. 

I had the same relationship with my cousins that everybody I knew had, which was "fraternal" as you put it. I am not talking about generations ago when choices were limited due to geographical limitations and high mortality. 

Say what you want, but at this time and in this culture first cousin marriages are not considered mainstream. I say yuk, but to each her own. Agree to disagree is fine with me!

 

[JordynDarby5]

13 hours ago, daisyd681 said:

I've found a number of first cousin marriages in the early 1600's in my line. I'm almost certain it was lack of options at that time. There's a strong possibility that my parents are very distant cousins (the family divergence being in like 1710). Doing genealogy you start to realize that we're all related one way or another. 

That being said the only modern occurrence of first cousins marrying was my bil and his cousin. They weren't raised in the same state, so it's not like they were ever close growing up. In my state first cousins is only legal if the couple is incapable of bearing children. She'd had a hysterectomy, so they were able to marry. I'm not aware of any lasting family rifts from the breakup of that relationship and it got pretty volatile at the end.

I imagine in The Order being allowed to marry a cousin is miles better than the other options (sibling or uncle).

That's how I found out that many of my ancestors were first cousins. I was surprised at first mostly by the last ones since they're my great-great-grandparents and that it never came up. In all the family stories it seemed like something that would have come up. But I also assume it was the lack of options. In each case they lived in small towns or towns that were small at the time, the families had lived there for a few generations, and had nearly a dozen siblings.  If most families had about the same amount of kids, at some point your growing to ruin out of non-relatives to marry.

One of my cousins married a man with the same last name as her but not related. She would always introduce him and then  quickly add "but we're not related". 

How depressing though when your best option is your first cousin? Your worse option is a tie between your uncle or brother?  Brainwashed into thinking those all great options.  

[Diana]

I agree that nowadays its not something "mainstream" as you say, but there is nothing wrong with it, in most countries in the world is legal and has always been. In my family it was just 3 generations ago, unfortunately that is as far as i know about my ancestors, you are really fortunate for knowing who they were until the XVI century! 

Also its a common misconception to believe there is a real genetic danger, unless its been many generations of intermarriage(like in the royal families, or in closed groups like the kingston clan) there is no real danger, just two cousins marrying doesnt represent a great risk of genetical defects that a woman having a child in her 40s. So shocked about that woman having to go throught sterilization like that just to marry the person she loved, its really abhorrent  to hear that something like that happened, i can't imagine how hard it must have been for her.

Edited September 5, 2016 by Diana

[faraway]

I wouldn't say there's nothing wrong with first cousin marriages. If you bring in children at a higher genetic risk, that would be a good enough reason for me to stay away from it. I just wouldn't put a potential child at an extra risk.

There's the Westermarck effect, which explains how people who grow up together are not attracted to each other. It's a pretty interesting wikipedia article. People are basically at risk of being really attracted to family members, if they are raised away from them and meet them at an older age. The reason for that is, that we are attracted to people who kind of look and behave like ourselves. There's all these crazy stories about people getting intensely attracted to their adopted children/parents after meeting as adults. It's a real thing.

I think it's healthiest to have a close "cousin relationship" as children, which is more fraternal. I have a friend who met a first cousin for the first time when they were grown-ups and they dated for a while. In this day and age I simply don't see the need for cousin marriage, there are so many options.

Edited September 5, 2016 by faraway

[HerNameIsBuffy]

On August 31, 2016 at 6:35 AM, SilverBeach said:

OK. I appreciate your defense of first cousin marriages although I will never agree with it. Aunts becoming mothers in law, etc...too damn complicated. And the genetic risk is real. 

I had the same relationship with my cousins that everybody I knew had, which was "fraternal" as you put it. I am not talking about generations ago when choices were limited due to geographical limitations and high mortality. 

Say what you want, but at this time and in this culture first cousin marriages are not considered mainstream. I say yuk, but to each her own. Agree to disagree is fine with me!

 

I agree with all of this.  Everyone has some of this in their family tree - if branches and family lines didn't cross back on themselves none of us would be here - not enough people who have ever been on the planet to gives completely divergent ancestors all the way back.

I believe it's much better for society as a whole of people have firm boundries about not crossing romantic lines with close family members.  And like you said, we're not limited to a small geographic area like most were in generations before.  There is no reason for this.

I have elevemty first cousins that I saw a few times a year (if that) as a child and not at all for the last 20+ years, but if I were single the thought of dating any of them would be as abhorrent to me as going out with my brother.  Kind of skeeved out just typing that, tbh.

I may not know them as people, but they're still family.  

And the genetic risk is real.  It may well not manifest in generation one, that's true, but where do you draw the line?  First cousins can marry, unless their parents were also cousins?  

IMO when people are talking to their SO about grandparents they shouldn't be referring to the same people.

Oh, to the bolded.  THAT never occurred to me...adds a whole other layer of yuck.

Funny how the westermark effect works.  I have two cousins that I didn't know until I was an adult were actually not blood related, but from a first marriage - was a family secret.  Even knowing there is no blood relation it would still be a huge no - shouldn't be illegal - but blood or no the shared family history and grandparents?  Nope.

not like incest comes up in day to day conversations for me, but it's one social taboo I'm glad is in place and I don't think we should chip away at it as a society

 

 

[DaisyD]

16 hours ago, Diana said:

So shocked about that woman having to go throught sterilization like that just to marry the person she loved, its really abhorrent  to hear that something like that happened, i can't imagine how hard it must have been for her.

Just to be clear, she had the hysterectomy long before she started dating bil. She didn't get it done so they could marry, it just made it so that they could. 

[quiversR4hunting]

Anyone watch the latest show? I had to party with all my beach friends last night and say good bye to summer (always a bitter sweet party) so I watched it today.

First, that order father is lucky to have a non-order daughter willing to fight for her. Second, where are the other 3 wives and children? If some of them are in the order why the hell is he not living with them? Third, holy shit the will and guardianship. That sounds all kinds of illegal and elder abuse. (Not an attorney but it all sounds like signing a contract against one's own will.)

The guy is getting social security. How do the current working Kingston peeps get social security in the future? Your employer has to pay into the system to get it out. Do they do that? Who gets his social security when he dies? I assume the first wife if they were married over 15 years or currently married. Also if they are still legally married, does she have legal say over his life before the caretaker.

So if any of the real attorney's or a funeral home director or a social security administration worker on FJ can answer my questions, that would be great!

[SilverBeach]

I thought it was really nice of the crew to help a man firmly entrenched in The Order. Why wasn't he getting medical care? He didn't even have a TV or anything, and was so unkempt. The Order doesn't give a damn about him, it's all about control with them. 

The daughter needs to get dad to revoke the existing power of attorney and give it to her instead. Or, have her other 11 siblings all go with her to take him in for care. He is too brainwashed to leave on his own.

I cringed when the dad justified child rape by saying that Mary was 13 when pregnant with Jesus. Huh? The Kingston Clan men are God now?

Sad. But the young women are angels.

[Coconut Flan]

The current legal wife could get Social Security (reduced benefit) at age 60 or at age 50 if disabled.  Any minor children could also receive a benefit if parentage can be proven. 

[Quivering Uterus]

I wondered why the daughter didn't just up and take him out of there permanently, instead of out to eat somewhere.  

I don't think I would be too hard to prove the Dad turned things over to Craig or whatever his name is. It  would be pretty easy to prove he signed the paperwork in duress. 

 

 

Edited September 6, 2016 by Quivering Uterus
ineffective stupid keyboard

[quiversR4hunting]

1 hour ago, Quivering Uterus said:

I wondered why the daughter didn't just up and take him out of there permanently, instead of out to eat somewhere.  

I don't think I would be too hard to prove the Dad turned things over to Craig or whatever his name is. It  would be pretty easy to prove he signed the paperwork in duress. 

 

 

I wonder if it has to do with his decision. Kind of like an alcoholic, you can force an alcoholic to AA but you can't force them to stay sober. If daughter forced her dad out, he could claim kidnapping, etc.

I still really want to know about the other 3 wives and children and how many of the kids (in or out of the order) are helping dad. This is reality TV, they never show the entire back story with all the players.

[OyToTheVey]

55 minutes ago, quiversR4hunting said:

I wonder if it has to do with his decision. Kind of like an alcoholic, you can force an alcoholic to AA but you can't force them to stay sober. If daughter forced her dad out, he could claim kidnapping, etc.

I still really want to know about the other 3 wives and children and how many of the kids (in or out of the order) are helping dad. This is reality TV, they never show the entire back story with all the players.

Mandi said she has no idea how many kids her dad actually has. She just knows that with her mom he has 12. It's kinda sad cuz he seemed to be one of the 'good' ones. Who knows maybe Shain is one of his kids but they didn't mention it.

[Exjw2015deed]

12 hours ago, Quivering Uterus said:

I wondered why the daughter didn't just up and take him out of there permanently, instead of out to eat somewhere.  

I don't think I would be too hard to prove the Dad turned things over to Craig or whatever his name is. It  would be pretty easy to prove he signed the paperwork in duress. 

 

 

They are all really ignorant about the power of attorney thing. In Connecticut, I know the law is that if the person is not in their right mind, the power of attorney can make decisions. He still has his mind. My mother is young (50) and has a lot of medical issues so I have legal power to make medical decisions for her, but only if she is incapacitated. I always jokingly say that I'm essentially the "plug puller". Those people are sadly uneducated about their rights and it really made me sad to watch it. Fred can easily get the man with the nice bmw removed from his property and legal documents. This cult is sick and I hope everyone on free jinger has signed the change.org petition.

Also, here is the vice piece where John Daniel's son who was featured on the week before. He has not gone back. Also I wonder if this kind woman who takes in polygamy victims has some sort of PayPal, I would love to donate to her cause. She is so patient and really allows these people to get into their dreams and work at it. 

Two of the escapees from the show were featured on here. I was surprised the Kingston father thanked her for taking care of his daughter who escaped. He seemed to genuinely love his daughter but has drank the koolaid for far too long. Growing up jehovah witness and seeing the fear my aunt had when she was disfellowshipped and all the bargaining she was willing to do was heartbreaking. 

 

 

[DaisyD]

They won't spend money to keep their children safe, why would they spend money keeping their elderly healthy? Eventually I'll stop being surprised by the sick things these people do.

[usedbicycle]

17 hours ago, Exjw2015deed said:

Also, here is the vice piece where John Daniel's son who was featured on the week before. He has not gone back. Also I wonder if this kind woman who takes in polygamy victims has some sort of PayPal, I would love to donate to her cause. She is so patient and really allows these people to get into their dreams and work at it. 

 

 

Yes! Christine has an organization called Voices for Dignity. They don't have a "donation" button per se, but on this page you can contact her to offer your help (financial, clothes, etc...) I was thinking of doing the same. http://voicesfordignity.com/volunteer-to-help-polygamy-refugees/

[Exjw2015deed]

34 minutes ago, usedbicycle said:

Yes! Christine has an organization called Voices for Dignity. They don't have a "donation" button per se, but on this page you can contact her to offer your help (financial, clothes, etc...) I was thinking of doing the same. http://voicesfordignity.com/volunteer-to-help-polygamy-refugees/

Awesome, thank you very much. It shows how humble she is for not having a constant crowd funding page opened.

[quiversR4hunting]

@Exjw2015deed thank you for posting that video. It was very good. The young lady with several severe miscarriages, wow. They claim to be pro-life but they really aren't. Just like with the older dad with Parkinson, the cult really doesn't care about life, just numbers it seems. So sad.

So does anyone think the sisters and Christine work together to help these people? 

[Exjw2015deed]

1 hour ago, quiversR4hunting said:

@Exjw2015deed thank you for posting that video. It was very good. The young lady with several severe miscarriages, wow. They claim to be pro-life but they really aren't. Just like with the older dad with Parkinson, the cult really doesn't care about life, just numbers it seems. So sad.

So does anyone think the sisters and Christine work together to help these people? 

To my knowledge Christine has her own thing going, the sisters use her more as a resource and have introduced her to victims of polygamy. 

Its just heartbreaking how uneducated and ill prepared these people are. The fact that the government has complete knowledge of what is going on in the order is what makes it all worse.

[Cleopatra7]

On 9/6/2016 at 11:46 AM, quiversR4hunting said:

I wonder if it has to do with his decision. Kind of like an alcoholic, you can force an alcoholic to AA but you can't force them to stay sober. If daughter forced her dad out, he could claim kidnapping, etc.

I still really want to know about the other 3 wives and children and how many of the kids (in or out of the order) are helping dad. This is reality TV, they never show the entire back story with all the players.

I think among the Kingstons that the practice is for the men not to live with any of the wives or even for the wives to have contact with each other. I assume this makes it easy to marry off close relatives to each other, since both parties are marrying strangers for all intents and purposes even if they are some combination of siblings, cousins, and in-laws in reality.

[MamaJunebug]

For those who watch "Escaping Polygamy" on A&E -- the episode where a former FLDS-er is trying to get her Parkinson's-affected dad to a doctor has me wondering.

Early in the episode, the two "stars" of the show -- the women who help folks escape -- make it clear that they will not approach the unwell gent because he will recognize them as "the enemy" and will spurn any offers of help. 

Then, after painstaking and loving work by his daughter, including at least two trips to get him away from his minders and ask if he wants to see a medic, THE WHOLE CROWD INCLUDING A CAMERA CREW AND "THE ENEMY" ladies approach him and guess what: he tells them all to go away. No much-needed doctor visit. 

I cant help but wonder WHAT THE WHAT was going on with that plan!  Had his daughter returned, alone as before, to take him on an outing, likely he'd have gone and received long-overdue medical assessment.

There's no way to know why the program producers sent along a circus INCLUDING the two "enemy" women -- but it sure looked shady as eff, & guaranteed to produce a "failure" ending for shock value.  And deprive the old guy of his MD visit. 

Not sure what to think of the show, at this point. 

 

 

Edited September 10, 2016 by MamaJunebug

[DaisyD]

I agree with you, mostly. The only wild card in that specific scenario was the order woman that was already there. I'm wondering if the original plan was to do it the way they had been doing it, but that lady being there changed things. I don't know, of course. I'm just wondering if there was a bit of "If you come back, there's going to be trouble" that made her want some backup for it.

[quiversR4hunting]

@MamaJunebug he had consented to the sitsit down interview, in what appears to be hotel, with the entire circus. So my guess is he consented to the circus coming into his home. He shut down when he heard Shain was there. And the leaders daughter-in-law was watching him. Before when the daughter went in she was alone with him. I think the difference was the handlers being present. 

Reality TV is not all reality but from what was filmed I think they did the best they could.