Counting On - Part 9: Even the Flashbacks Have Flashbacks

[JenniferJuniper]

1 hour ago, Larry said:

There is something odd about the season finale. Even for TLC and the Duggars that was way too much old footage, and showing stuff from Jessa's birth which first aired last December was ridiculous. We didn't hear anything about Jana's ''I totally didn't see this coming''. There really is no reason why they should renew it, and it must have caused TLC more stress than it was worth so the sensible thing would be to cancel. Who am I kidding though, they are probably filming more episodes as we speak!

Yes, one almost gets the feeling they gave up on it early on.  Lazy, lazy effort all around.  Nothing even for a leghumper to hump on.

I don't think they'll back, and man, that was one hell of an anti-climactic ending if it is over.

But we'll always have the tree-house memories.

[Carol]

I just watched the season finale on Amazon.  I didn't have the same reaction to some things that were said/done as many here did.  I suspect it's because I grew up with 6 sisters and two brothers.  For example, Jessa teasing Jill about her engagement.  I didn't see it as throwing shade, I saw it as good natured teasing.  Didn't have any complaints about what anyone said at the orphanage, I believe Jill and Jessa were expressing genuine emotions about kids.  Yes, they weren't politically correct but I think they were open about their feelings.

If anything has been gained by having this show on the air I think it is that this family has seen a whole other side of life than they would if they were still locked on the compound.  It's opened them up to other cultures(however minimally), travel, malls, coffee shops, other churches that aren't totally whacked, normal conversations...what the rest of us experience every day.  I am happy to see Jill and Derrick being so affectionate with each other(genuine affection), I am happy to see Jessa show real emotion and I am happy half their family got to travel without JB and Michelle.  I think Ben has a whole lot of maturing to do before he goes out into the world like J and D did.  I hope J and D either don't come back for a few years or, they come home briefly and acknowledge to themselves their heart is still in Central America and return.  Jill is certainly not the clingy person she was when the married, she seems really at home there.  Nice to see.

[OrchidBlossom]

1 hour ago, anotherone said:

It wasn't lowest in male viewership.  What could possibly be less interesting to a bunch of 30-something guys.

I wonder if the ratings were affected by about 4 big sports things.

I think he's doing OK - for a 20 yr old!!  I don't think anyone that young could be much more into it.  Derreck has about 5 years on him and that could make a huge difference.  So I believe there's hope for him, unless he gets too discouraged and does something about it.

I would say Ben doing something about getting out of an unhappy marriage would be the hope for him actually. And for Jessa. They don't seem to like each other much, never did IMHO.

[EmCatlyn]

 Continuing with the discussion about the Duggar sons talking about protecting their sisters, begun in Part 8....

@Cleopatra7 wrote:

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As I recall from the police report, at least one non-Josh J'boy was interviewed by the police. I don't want to speculate which one it was, but I think both JD and Joseph would have been old enough to understand what was happening. The unidentified J'boy said that he knew it was wrong to touch people inappropriately, although the terminology he used was indicative of a home where even a simple concept as "good touch/bad touch" was heavily filtered through Gothardism.

I think there is a difference between knowing that you don't touch people's private places and recognizing that what Josh did was a type of sexual violation.  I would hazard that a 7 year old, as Joseph was, would have thought of the "inappropriate touching" as an offense on the same level as hitting a sibling or yanking a sister's hair, or stealing someone else's candy.  And JD may have had a better sense of the seriousness of the offense, but he probably didn't get enough details and he was certainly encouraged to leave the matter in the hands of his parents. (As we all agree was appropriate. The problem is the parents failed.)

@fundiesarefascinating explained that

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My frustration is that when we all know about the abuse that happened in the home their adult male children bring out this line of "we need to screen strangers so they don't hurt our sisters" when the actual predator was living in their home. 

I agree that the idea that the danger is in the stranger is one of those distortions of reality that the Duggars are good at.  (However, they are not unique in this. A lot of non-fundy folks also are likely to overlook the danger within the family while being cautious about "strangers".)  I think there is a sort of cognitive dissonance between what they know Josh did and the way they see the outside world as dangerous.

That being said, the context of being protective towards their sisters seemed more along the lines of not letting a man they didn't trust enter the family.   And certainly one could see that while having Josh for a brother is a problem, being married to him (as Anna has experienced) may be worse in some ways.  And the Duggar brothers may rightly feel that one Josh in the family is enough.  Keeping Josh-clones from marrying their sisters is not such a bad goal.

[Alachantal]

13 hours ago, Jana814 said:

Last nights episode was so boring. I barely made it though the whole thing. I really wonder if this is the end of the series. 

I've been having the boyfriend torrent the episodes for me and I told him to not even bother with last nights... 

When I want to get my deep cleaning of the apartment done I put on Counting On. That's how boring it is. I really hope it's the end of the series. 

[nastyhobbitses]

4 hours ago, EmCatlyn said:

 Continuing with the discussion about the Duggar sons talking about protecting their sisters, begun in Part 8....

@Cleopatra7 wrote:

I think there is a difference between knowing that you don't touch people's private places and recognizing that what Josh did was a type of sexual violation.  I would hazard that a 7 year old, as Joseph was, would have thought of the "inappropriate touching" as an offense on the same level as hitting a sibling or yanking a sister's hair, or stealing someone else's candy.  And JD may have had a better sense of the seriousness of the offense, but he probably didn't get enough details and he was certainly encouraged to leave the matter in the hands of his parents. (As we all agree was appropriate. The problem is the parents failed.)

@fundiesarefascinating explained that

I agree that the idea that the danger is in the stranger is one of those distortions of reality that the Duggars are good at.  (However, they are not unique in this. A lot of non-fundy folks also are likely to overlook the danger within the family while being cautious about "strangers".)  I think there is a sort of cognitive dissonance between what they know Josh did and the way they see the outside world as dangerous.

That being said, the context of being protective towards their sisters seemed more along the lines of not letting a man they didn't trust enter the family.   And certainly one could see that while having Josh for a brother is a problem, being married to him (as Anna has experienced) may be worse in some ways.  And the Duggar brothers may rightly feel that one Josh in the family is enough.  Keeping Josh-clones from marrying their sisters is not such a bad goal.

In general I think that "stranger danger" has caused more harm than good, because it lulls parents and children into a false sense of security, and blinds people to the fact that most abuse and exploitation (sexual and otherwise) is perpetrated by someone the victim knows and trusts. It's good to teach kids not to take offers that are too good to be true, or to trust everyone, but I think that better than teaching kids that strangers are evil child molesters and they can be kidnapped at any time by some nasty man in a trenchcoat is teaching kids to gauge situations and people quickly, know themselves, set boundaries, and advocate for those boundaries loud and clear with the help of resources we should be developing, like more efficient and effective protective child protection services and a legal system better equipped to handle abuse cases (hahahaaha like that will ever happen).

[CoveredInBees]

7 hours ago, Larry said:

There is something odd about the season finale. Even for TLC and the Duggars that was way too much old footage, and showing stuff from Jessa's birth which first aired last December was ridiculous. We didn't hear anything about Jana's ''I totally didn't see this coming''.

Something smells a little funky, especially if Jana's comment that they were using in the promos before the season started never aired.

It is as if something was happening (courtship?) but it ended before it was announced. We know they like to cover stuff up and pretend things never happened, but when you're supposed to be 'Reality TV' you still have to be interesting! And that means actually dealing with 'reality' and in most cases making a bigger deal about it rather than totally ignoring it.

Imagine how much more interesting it would be if they:

1) All had family therapy for 'Joshgate'.

2) Derricks surgery was covered (including the 'shit, this went a bit wrong, lets see if we can correct it' bit). Incidentally, I would pay good money to anyone willing to sneak in and Immac his head while he sleeps, he's turning into teen wolf.

3) Bin and Jessa admitted that now the fairytale wedding/courtship was done, the reality of marriage and kids is a bit harder than they thought and they need to work on their relationship.

4)Their real political/religious views were shown.

I can't see TLC doing another season like this, I think it will move to specials for a while (probably just courtship/weddings) they could probably string each out to 3 episodes (1 courtship, 1 wedding prep, 1 actual wedding). and then ever few years have a 'where are they now' reunion show where we catch up with how fertile they've been.

 

[Tiny Bubbles]

I agree, I also wonder if there wasn't a courtship or whatever in the works for the original finale that fell apart, leaving lots of space to fill up with flashbacks and flashbacks-of-flashbacks in the two finale shows.  

Maybe it's in their contract that a failed relationship not be broadcast??

Because good grief, there is no excuse for those yawner finales.  

 

[littlemommy]

12 hours ago, Hiddenomaha said:

Dropped 10 spots to #25! And lost about 200,000 viewers.

Not a good night when you get less viewers than the 11:30 am showing of Paw Patrol......

I've been to two Paw Patrol birthday parties this year. No Duggar themed ones. 

[MorningMist]

2 hours ago, littlemommy said:

I've been to two Paw Patrol birthday parties this year. No Duggar themed ones. 

Just imagine a Duggar themed party... only light swaying to some fiddle playing allowed.

[SassyPants]

13 hours ago, BabyBottlePop said:

I haven't watched the new episode yet, but Pickles posted a bunch of pictures of everyone, including Israel and Spurge meeting. And I have seen lots of pictures of both boys and thought they looks basically like mini JBs- Israel a blond JB and Spurge a brown one. After seeing them together, they still look like JB and yet I didn't think they looked all that alike.

Lately, I do see a bit of Ben in SES, but Izzy is pure JB. Granted It's hard for a baby to look like a caveman.

[just...sare]

It's so easy to get bogged down in the little things while watching this crap ("WHEN! Not whenever!"; why are they incapable of saying "boys"? Why is it always "guys"? They're referring to teenage boys, not 20-something men.)

But two things struck me. First, they edited all those clips to focus on Jill and Jessa hugging each other. When you watch the actual episode for Jill's wedding, it focuses on her relationship with Jana and Joy. In the flashback cuts, it's Jill and Jessa, every time. (Unless they immediately followed it with a TH, like with Joy, but even then, in the clip she is crying with Jana and Anna, not Jill). They didn't show Jill reacting to seeing Joy after all this time, they showed her seeing Jessa. Etc.

However, with that said, watching Jill and Jessa actually being together in this episode was probably the most natural sisterly affection we've seen in many episodes. If it was acting, it's better acting than they've displayed before. They were appropriately teasing, affectionate, contemplative, just...normal. It was nice to see, despite the constant thinking of "i wonder if they're being coached for this".

The other thing that stuck with me is that being away from her family has been really, really good for Jill and Derrick. They look happy and happy together and happy with their son (and that's not disregarding that she lets him chew on a fan). I think of the three married Duggarlets so far, Jill is the one who really married for love and quite possibly married the right person. Hopefully Derrick isn't as unwell as he looks.

[CreationMuseumSeasonPass]

Maybe it's wishful thinking, but I've said this before and I'll say it again. There's a scene early on in the finale episode where Jill and Jessa are standing on Jill's porch in "dangerous Central America." The sisters are reflecting on the past two years and their courtships, marriages etc. I swear, the mood felt like it was "It's been a good run, but now it's time for goodbye" to the viewers. Maybe it's just me, but that's the first feeling I got when the scene came on.

[EmmieJ]

19 hours ago, punkiepie said:

Bin now looks like he wants to get the hell out of dodge and Jessa appears over-emotive and slightly clingy.  I felt sad for Jessa last night, and she's not someone I usually feel that way about...  Usually Jill is the one crying, not Jessa, and Jill seemed as happy as she could be and Jessa, well, she didn't look that way at all.  

I don't watch the show so my information on what happened comes mainly from FJ posters.  More than one poster has been commenting on what they perceive as the lack of chemistry between Jessa and Ben.  It brings to mind something I remember from the Little House books:  Ma saying "Marry in haste, repent in leisure."

 

[EmmieJ]

15 hours ago, calimojo said:

I think the girls are friendly with Anna now, but I didn't think they were very close with her at first.  It might not be fair to Anna, but the truth is Josh is just not that likable, and that probably influences how the sibs feel about his wife. 

True.  We've discussed and speculated about how much Anna (and her father) were actually told about Josh's molestation of his sisters.  I am of the belief that JB glossed it over and minimized it (as he did during that interview with Megyn Kelly) and that Anna really didn't have a true idea of the extent and seriousness of his molestation.  So I can try to put myself into one of the sister's shoes and all trust in my brother having been erased but I'm still required to put on a sweet face and pretend it's no big deal.  That would probably extend to his new wife, who looks up at him adoringly and hangs on his every word.  I might be thinking something along the lines of "Oh brother, if you only knew!"  How could you build a truly close relationship with Anna if at the same time you were keeping a huge secret about her husband from her?

[Buzzard]

This.Is.Amazing

http://wonkette.com/601394/jill-and-jessa-counting-on-finale-our-long-national-nightmare-is-over-at-last

My favorite lines:

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We regret to inform you that the latest iteration of the Duggars, “Jill and Jessa: Counting Spawn On” has not yet been cancelled. Turns out prayers don’t do shit. Perhaps we need to start making blood sacrifices to minor demons in order to make this pain cease.

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Everyone has to yammer on about how it has been a whole six months since they saw each other. Since these people only mark time by noting what babies were baking or born when, everyone keeps explaining that the last time Jessa and Jill saw each other, Squashy Baby Spurgeon was still a precious pre-born.
 

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Derick Dillard is starting to look kind of…not quite Charles Manson follower. Let’s say Charles Manson enthusiast.
 

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One of the Duggar brothers — fuck, we don’t know which one. The one that looks most like a piece of turkey bologna? — explains that it is normally their job to vet any potential suitors, but Derick was in goddamn Nepal, so they couldn’t.
 

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The singing is atonal and whiteness personified, but it allows for ANOTHER trip down memory lane to the girls having a fiddle party back on “19 Kids.”
 

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REMINISCING AGAIN OH DEAR GOD MAKE IT STOP. Jessa is amazed that only two years ago, she and Jill were making wedding plans. Are these people goldfish? Do they lack object permanence and literally forget who they are and what they’ve done from one minute to the next? That can be the only explanation for their constant excitement and amazement at reliving their own very recent (and very dull) history.
 

 

I heart wonkette

[MayMay1123]

SQUASHY! BABY! gets me every time!

[lascuba]

2 hours ago, SassyPants said:

Lately, I do see a bit of Ben in SES, but Izzy is pure JB. Granted It's hard for a baby to look like a caveman.

I think that Izzy and Spurgeon both look a lot like JB without looking much like each other...just like their moms. It's the weirdest thing.

[anotherone]

37 minutes ago, MayMay1123 said:

SQUASHY! BABY! gets me every time!

God-botherer too.

[EmCatlyn]

On May 4, 2016 at 0:45 AM, allthegoodnamesrgone said:

I have thought all along that Derrick picking up and getting out of dodge like he did w/ Jill & Izzy was to get her away from her crazy family. 

Derrick seems to be his own type of crazy.  I don't mean his hair and beard but the whole idea of going to "minister" in a country where you don't really speak the language but your main ministry is to preach?? That is delusional at best.

That being said, even going to a new crazy, getting away from that family is a good thing.  I just hope at some point Derrick finds it in his heart to do something  useful, maybe become bookkeeper for some non-profit Christian group or something. 

[nst]

3 hours ago, just...sare said:

It's so easy to get bogged down in the little things while watching this crap ("WHEN! Not whenever!"; why are they incapable of saying "boys"? Why is it always "guys"? They're referring to teenage boys, not 20-something men.)

But two things struck me. First, they edited all those clips to focus on Jill and Jessa hugging each other. When you watch the actual episode for Jill's wedding, it focuses on her relationship with Jana and Joy. In the flashback cuts, it's Jill and Jessa, every time. (Unless they immediately followed it with a TH, like with Joy, but even then, in the clip she is crying with Jana and Anna, not Jill). They didn't show Jill reacting to seeing Joy after all this time, they showed her seeing Jessa. Etc.

However, with that said, watching Jill and Jessa actually being together in this episode was probably the most natural sisterly affection we've seen in many episodes. If it was acting, it's better acting than they've displayed before. They were appropriately teasing, affectionate, contemplative, just...normal. It was nice to see, despite the constant thinking of "i wonder if they're being coached for this".

The other thing that stuck with me is that being away from her family has been really, really good for Jill and Derrick. They look happy and happy together and happy with their son (and that's not disregarding that she lets him chew on a fan). I think of the three married Duggarlets so far, Jill is the one who really married for love and quite possibly married the right person. Hopefully Derrick isn't as unwell as he looks.

and remember this was filmed i think  in March - and December Joy had already been to see Jill with the rest of the "family" for their xmas adventure to scaryCA SOS 

so that was three months

 

1 hour ago, EmmieJ said:

True.  We've discussed and speculated about how much Anna (and her father) were actually told about Josh's molestation of his sisters.  I am of the belief that JB glossed it over and minimized it (as he did during that interview with Megyn Kelly) and that Anna really didn't have a true idea of the extent and seriousness of his molestation.  So I can try to put myself into one of the sister's shoes and all trust in my brother having been erased but I'm still required to put on a sweet face and pretend it's no big deal.  That would probably extend to his new wife, who looks up at him adoringly and hangs on his every word.  I might be thinking something along the lines of "Oh brother, if you only knew!"  How could you build a truly close relationship with Anna if at the same time you were keeping a huge secret about her husband from her?

Anna is completely separate - but she is separate and crazy in her own beliefs and actions 

yes she might have known, but now with all her crap she spilled during the series - and that the fact she won't leave Josh and goes on and on about forgiveness and love 

she is SETTING A HORRIBLE example and is Just as crazy and ill as Josh

As for why Derick didn't include her regarding the babiessss - it makes sense to -me - disassociation  pure and simple and I APPLAUD -i don't get it -but I applaud it 

take a stand 

Anna is cray cray 

I don't think for a moment they all go for coffees together or anything 

it was staged pure and simple 

 

[lascuba]

34 minutes ago, EmCatlyn said:

Derrick seems to be his own type of crazy.  I don't mean his hair and beard but the whole idea of going to "minister" in a country where you don't really speak the language but your main ministry is to preach?? That is delusional at best.

That being said, even going to a new crazy, getting away from that family is a good thing.  I just hope at some point Derrick finds it in his heart to do something  useful, maybe become bookkeeper for some non-profit Christian group or something. 

He surpasses Ben AND Jim Bob in the self-importance category, for sure.

As for Anna, I think a big part of the reason the girls didn't seem to get along much with her in the beginning was because she was such an obvious Duggar and quiverfull fangirl. No doubt that the Duggar girl are all true believers but I think they have a bit of perspective, and it's probably hard to be friends and open up to people who see you as famous first and not just people. I'll never forget Jinger's look of disgust when Anna said, "We haven't picked our letter yet!" about naming her future spawn.

[Ace3]

17 hours ago, punkiepie said:

 

It was Jinger who said it and I kinda understand what she meant.  Many of you may disagree, but I think that in the beginning, pregnancy and newborn stages, the baby is more the mom's than the dad.  She incubates it for 9 months and then, if she chooses, provides all of the nourishment for the baby for months or more.  Yes, the dad is important and does, or can(not), play a large and important role as well, but barring something major, the mom is usually the most important person in a young baby's life.  So it seems normal that the mom's family would initially feel closer to the baby.  I don't think it means that they love the M Kids any less than they do Izzy and Spurgeon, but the Duggar girls probably did feel more of a bond with them when they were born than they did with the M Kids.  

 

I agree. Also - the girls weren't really the close to Anna when she and Josh were first married. I mean, he hardly knew his wife when they got married, I highly doubt his sisters were close with her either! I'm sure they are close now, but in the beginning, probably not so much. His 'youthful indiscretions' also affect the way that they look at Anna too. 

For what it's worth - I also feel like if my sister-in-law had a baby (not that she would - she and her husband don't want kids!) but if they did, I would still be closer to my sister's kid because I'm closer to my sister. We know each other really well, are better friends and we have a history. Not that I wouldn't love my sister-in-laws kid, but I probably would have a slightly different relationship. Just my thoughts 

[ksgranola1]

27 minutes ago, lascuba said:

He surpasses Ben AND Jim Bob in the self-importance category, for sure.

As for Anna, I think a big part of the reason the girls didn't seem to get along much with her in the beginning was because she was such an obvious Duggar and quiverfull fangirl. No doubt that the Duggar girl are all true believers but I think they have a bit of perspective, and it's probably hard to be friends and open up to people who see you as famous first and not just people. I'll never forget Jinger's look of disgust when Anna said, "We haven't picked our letter yet!" about naming her future spawn.

I've never gotten the feeling that the girls rejected Anna in any way, far from it. As for Jinger, I think that shows a little crack in the veneer that is this way of life.

[BabyBottlePop]

1 hour ago, lascuba said:

I think that Izzy and Spurgeon both look a lot like JB without looking much like each other...just like their moms. It's the weirdest thing.

Yes! I had noticed that about Jessa and Jill but hadn't been able to put it into words.