Tori Bates Courtship

[hollywood]

Why do we need to have a post about how dangerous the bates are on every page of every thread? We all know by now. Just because someone compliments them once or points out something positive doesn't mean we have forgotten about how crappy their beliefs are. 

[formergothardite]

20 minutes ago, hollywood said:

Why do we need to have a post about how dangerous the bates are on every page of every thread? We all know by now. Just because someone compliments them once or points out something positive doesn't mean we have forgotten about how crappy their beliefs are. 

Because apparently people think they are less dangerous than the Duggars and are this happy, wholesome, well adjusted family. Maybe if people wouldn't say stuff like that in every thread I wouldn't feel inclined to point out how this family is scary beyond all reason. If people truly were realizing how crappy and awful their beliefs were there wouldn't be any debate on if they were better than the Duggars. 

ETA: And obviously at least one poster didn't know about their history of abuse and racism. If people are getting their info on the Bates from the show then they are very misinformed. 

[Kak]

16 minutes ago, hollywood said:

Why do we need to have a post about how dangerous the bates are on every page of every thread? We all know by now. Just because someone compliments them once or points out something positive doesn't mean we have forgotten about how crappy their beliefs are. 

When FJ tips over into Bates fandom.

[vienna]

50 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

Most of the information is here on FJ if you search the archives. Some of it is on the Yuku forum.  I used to do it for people and spend time finding link after link to answer questions, but it seems that most of the people who asked would rather believe the Bates propaganda and keep squeeing about how the Bates are so much better than the Duggars, so I just don't waste my time anymore. If you truly want to know what the Bates are like I would also suggest reading the thread in Snark about the lawsuit Gil is involved in. I will warn you, that there is some very, very disturbing stuff in those threads. If you think the Duggars covering up Josh is bad, Gil, last year, was trying to manipulate a woman who was sexually abused as a child into meeting in private with her abuser. The lawsuit also shows how much lying and manipulating Gil is willing to do to maintain a good image. 

I wish that we had thought to save the Bates original blog, because it showed a great deal more about the Bates and their beliefs, but I don't think anyone ever thought that they would whitewash things so well and do such a good job and looking normal. 

The Bates family is scary to me. There is so much evil there and they have done such a good job and hiding it. I don't really buy into the whole "they look happy so they must really be happy" train of thought. We see such a tiny sliver of their lives and that tiny sliver is heavily edited. And I am reminded of the threads about the Seven Sisters where people went on and on about how happy they all seemed so they must be happy, well it came out later that one of those "happy" sisters was suicidal, it just didn't come through on their blog. 

I always views the Bates social media and reality television show as propaganda, not something that reflects the truth. 

ETA: I will give you this link that shows what a difference there is in the Bates image. This was when they were on one of the Duggar shows. Neglected horses, small children behind kicking horses, no safety precautions around horses, and a person who lives there them dropping in to talk about how annoying the family is. No gushing over how happy and well adjusted they are. This was before they realized how they needed to tighten down on their public image. 

 

I really think most people here know about the IBPL Lawsuit and recovering grace as well as about fundis in general, Never teh less I agree with BeccaGrimm an many others. And it is no wrong to say/have the Impression that the Bates seem mentally healthier than the Duggars (low bar), I rellay think they are and thats a good Thing. There are believes that I simply don´t share and ther are believes that I consider dangerous. The Duggar and the Bates have both of such believes to me. But although both families share the same believes they seem to practice a lot of them differently and this to the benefit of mental health for the Bates. One can aknowlegde this. As with each religion there are 1000 way to believe or live by "the same book". Some are better some are worse. It gives me a bit of hope, whem a Family of influence within the cult does things a bit better. This can influence a lot of other families within the cult and make life a Little better for some. And this is a good Thing. It does not mean supporting partriarchy or ATI or Gothard and so on.

Better does not have to mean good, but better is better than same or worse...

[MorningMist]

7 minutes ago, vienna said:

I really think most people here know about the IBPL Lawsuit and recovering grace as well as about fundis in general, Never teh less I agree with BeccaGrimm an many others. And it is no wrong to say/have the Impression that the Bates seem mentally healthier than the Duggars (low bar), I rellay think they are and thats a good Thing. There are believes that I simply don´t share and ther are believes that I consider dangerous. The Duggar and the Bates have both of such believes to me. But although both families share the same believes they seem to practice a lot of them differently and this to the benefit of mental health for the Bates. One can aknowlegde this. As with each religion there are 1000 way to believe or live by "the same book". Some are better some are worse. It gives me a bit of hope, whem a Family of influence within the cult does things a bit better. This can influence a lot of other families within the cult and make life a Little better for some. And this is a good Thing. It does not mean supporting partriarchy or ATI or Gothard and so on.

Better does not have to mean good, but better is better than same or worse...

I think while the Duggars and Bateses are of the same caliber, the Bates are much more likeable than the Duggars. Its like any extreme right wing people, we all know they are awful just some seem a little more sane than the others. Often those people are the most dangerous.

[19 cats and counting]

20 minutes ago, MorningMist said:

I think while the Duggars and Bateses are of the same caliber, the Bates are much more likeable than the Duggars. Its like any extreme right wing people, we all know they are awful just some seem a little more sane than the others. Often those people are the most dangerous.

This.

I hate to bring politics into this, but if you look at the GOP race (excluding The Donald), John Kasich comes across as a moderate.  While in that race, he may appear moderate, he's just as dangerous (if not more because he appeals to moderate).

ETA-- The Duggars are Ted Cruz and the Bateses are John Kasich.

[formergothardite]

17 minutes ago, vienna said:

And it is no wrong to say/have the Impression that the Bates seem mentally healthier than the Duggars (low bar)

I agree, they do seem mentally healthier, but while it seems a lot of people credit the Bates parenting skills, IMO it has more to do with them not being molested(that we know of) and not be exploited on television for such a long time. 

18 minutes ago, vienna said:

But although both families share the same believes they seem to practice a lot of them differently and this to the benefit of mental health for the Bates.

I don't think the difference is that big of a difference to make a huge impact on them emotionally. They don't really do that much different. Everything different about the families is pretty superficial. 

20 minutes ago, vienna said:

It gives me a bit of hope, whem a Family of influence within the cult does things a bit better. This can influence a lot of other families within the cult and make life a Little better for some.

I do believe that this has been explained to you several time. Gil isn't making anything better for kids in the cult, he has only made things worse. He has hurt countless people and the influence he is having is that it okay to victim blame and cover up abuse. So why exactly do you think the Bates family will have a positive impact? All the things they do slightly different than the Duggars have already been a part of ATI, they aren't introducing new ideas, just helping continue the idea that covering up abuse it okay. 

If you would read the old thread I posted you will see that Kelly most likely lied to try to cover up that they were neglecting their horses. Looking at the big picture when it comes to the Bates, what I see is a family that quickly learned to hide their dark side and create happy propaganda to make it look like they have changed. 

[BlessingsVonFundiePants]

If this courtship is true, I feel a little bit bad for Joe Duggar. I really suspect that he and Tori were in a pre-courtship relationship and it was a casualty of Joshgate. I think he was going to Crown as a way to be closer to her and came home when she pulled the pin. Poor Joe, the sins of the oldest brother have been paid for by the rest of family. (I was happy about a Joe/Tori match because I think its better that these people marry each other rather than sucking unwitting civilians into the crazy crazy bullshit of quiver-full covenant marriages..then again... I'm happy that Tori will not live out her days on the Duggar compound...i'm really emotionally conflicted about these relationships in general...maybe I should pray about it and see where the lord encourages me to be fulfilled  )

[Shiny]

11 minutes ago, BlessingsVonFundiePants said:

If this courtship is true, I feel a little bit bad for Joe Duggar. I really suspect that he and Tori were in a pre-courtship relationship and it was a casualty of Joshgate. I think he was going to Crown as a way to be closer to her and came home when she pulled the pin. Poor Joe, the sins of the oldest brother have been paid for by the rest of family. (I was happy about a Joe/Tori match because I think its better that these people marry each other rather than sucking unwitting civilians into the crazy crazy bullshit of quiver-full covenant marriages..then again... I'm happy that Tori will not live out her days on the Duggar compound...i'm really emotionally conflicted about these relationships in general...maybe I should pray about it and see where the lord encourages me to be fulfilled  )

I think there is truth to this. Kelly and Gil must know that Duggar is toxic to the Bates brand. They must also know that the Bates brand is very appealing these days (just look at the appreciation for them on this forum!) and will do what it takes to prevent that from disappearing. It will be telling if no Bates kids end up with Duggars. 

 

[HarleyQuinn]

Well, damn. I really thought she was courting Joseph Duggar. Thought I was right about a courting rumor for once lol.

Oh well, you dodge that Jim Jong Boob bullet, Tori.

[BlessingsVonFundiePants]

1 minute ago, Shiny said:

I think there is truth to this. Kelly and Gil must know that Duggar is toxic to the Bates brand. They must also know that the Bates brand is very appealing this days (just look at the appreciation for them on this forum!) and will do what it takes to prevent that from disappearing. It will be telling if no Bates kids end up with Duggars. 

I agree, but I think they believe the Duggar BOYS are brand poison, because it would be seen as sending one of their daughters into the hands of Jim Bob's minions, but the Duggar GIRLS are brand solid gold, because they can spin it as saving them from the TTH, for a prettier version of the same bullshit. 

[formergothardite]

And Joseph dogged the Gil bullet. I wonder which father would be able to exploit a Duggar/Bates courtship the most? It would be interesting to see that fight. Gil would want it for his show and Jim Bob would want it for his. Who would win?! 

[Kira]

5 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

And Joseph dogged the Gil bullet. I wonder which father would be able to exploit a Duggar/Bates courtship the most? It would be interesting to see that fight. Gil would want it for his show and Jim Bob would want it for his. Who would win?! 

I think both UP and TLC would cover the courtship/wedding. If they had to make a choice TLC would win. TLC would get more viewers and the wedding would be covered by the media. It seems like most people don't get UP. I think the Bates would love to be on TLC again.

 

 

Maybe Joe is courting Carlin? That's been the rumor since December(?) They also seemed close at Michael's wedding

 

 

[Nashville92]

11 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

And Joseph I'mgged the Gil bullet. I wonder which fat her would be able to exploit a Duggar/Bates courtship the most? It would be interesting to see that fight. Gil would want it for his show and Jim Bob would want it for his. Who would win?! 

I would live to see a fundie royal rumble. I know im terrible lol

[MorningMist]

4 minutes ago, Nashville92 said:

I would live to see a fundie royal rumble. I know im terrible lol

My money is on Gil winning. JB seems like he's trying to prove or impress people with his faith (probably since he's not that high ranking in their church) whereas for Gil it seems effortless. The amount of times Jim Bob had to explain his beliefs on 19kac and show off he is pushing them on his family says a lot.

Jim Bob is basically a teachers pet.

[EyeQueue]

2 hours ago, formergothardite said:

<snip>

I wish that we had thought to save the Bates original blog, because it showed a great deal more about the Bates and their beliefs, but I don't think anyone ever thought that they would whitewash things so well and do such a good job and looking normal. 

<snip>

Is this possibly available via the Wayback Machine?

[BlessingsVonFundiePants]

35 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

And Joseph dogged the Gil bullet. I wonder which father would be able to exploit a Duggar/Bates courtship the most? It would be interesting to see that fight. Gil would want it for his show and Jim Bob would want it for his. Who would win?! 

my money is on Gil!

 

[usedbicycle]

3 hours ago, formergothardite said:

And where did you get this opinion? Their heavily edited social media and reality television show whose goal is to make them look normal and make you forget that this family is involved in some disturbing shit? 

As I have said over and over, not have an outgoing, chipper, non-awkward personality isn't a character flaw like so many people act like it is when it comes to the Duggars. Marriage can be very, very hard work. Michelle is absolutely right. It is not always the best thing ever. Sometimes it sucks. 

~Gil and Kelly exploit their children and have for long before they got a reality television show. 

~Kelly used extremely abusive baby training methods. 

~Gil and Kelly are deep in a controlling, abusive cult and have raised their children in that cult.

~Gil and Kelly have camera's mounted around their home so that they can constantly monitor their unmarried children/.

~None of the Bates children have shown an iota of rebelling against IBLP.

~Gil and Kelly used their children to raise and educate their other children.

~Gil and Kelly are smart, very smart when it comes to their public image. they have messed up in the past, but long gone are the days of Kelly admitting she can't name her children and being open about their racism. 

~They have watched the Duggars, what the Duggars got criticized for and then changed their image to avoid doing those things. So while they used to brag about "Bates Time" and being late for everything, once they Duggars got criticized for it, they stopped doing that. 

I CAN'T FUCKING BELIEVE PEOPLE BUY THE BULLSHIT THE BATES ARE SELLING!. This is exactly why the Bates are 100% more dangerous than the Duggars because they sugar coat evil and people, even people here, overlook all the awful stuff about them because they can put on a good show and hide the crazy side of their life. With the Duggars it is all hanging out, but the Bates manipulate their public image to make people think the are a normal, well adjusted family. 

I agree with everything you said, let's not get into a debate over who's worse. We all know how misogynistic and controlling ALL these fundamentalist families are.

I guess I was just speculating why the Bates seem to get married off quickly, as opposed to other ATI families whose blogs I follow. Whether you like it or not, their chipper personality is something fundie men are taught to value in women, and gives them an advantage in those circles. "Sweet" and "joyous" are labels these girls/women forced to aspire to, and the Bates have definitely succeeded at that. Secondly, their parents do brainwash them about the positive aspects of mariage and minimize the negatives. I don't see many other fundie patriarchs doing Gil's teary-eyed love declarations all the time. 

They have built their whole brand around the "happy family" image and Gil reaps all the benefits from it, including TV money, being on IBLP's board and getting tons of speaking engagements (Big Sandy...). What goes on behind closed doors, of course, is something else. Oh, to be a fly on the wall.

[19 cats and counting]

Here's some more evidence of the ghost of Bates past for the newbies.   (This is one episode of 17 Kids from 2008 when both families met.  If it were on Netflix I'd watch it for laughs).  This is when the Bates were portrayed as bigger freak show than the Duggars instead of a loving happy family.

Exhibit A-- Michael (18/19) and Erin (17/18) dressed the same as the little sister (not sure who) Michael is holding.

http://wtffundiefamilies.tumblr.com/image/80668975454

Family photos (Duggars and Bates)

http://wtffundiefamilies.tumblr.com/post/26893033978/time-for-part-two-aka-bates-vs-duggars

The 'super fashionable' Alyssa dressed to resemble a traffic cone

http://wtffundiefamilies.tumblr.com/post/26836647232/kelly-explains-why-the-girls-dress-likewell

Zach Bates gives his opinion about a car's previous owner

http://wtffundiefamilies.tumblr.com/post/26764120426/on-the-one-hand-what-a-judgmental-tool-on-the

Why a young Nathan Bates is afraid of the big bad net

http://wtffundiefamilies.tumblr.com/post/26750183571/the-older-bates-boys-all-ping-my-gaydar-like

Kelly takes a pregnancy test at a gas station bathroom and shares the news

http://wtffundiefamilies.tumblr.com/post/26746206337/and-thus-concludes-the-story-of-learning-that

At a very young age, little Bates girl is THRILLED to be serving her brother by carrying his luggage

http://wtffundiefamilies.tumblr.com/image/26694157911

[formergothardite]

13 minutes ago, usedbicycle said:

I agree with everything you said, let's not get into a debate over who's worse. We all know how misogynistic and controlling ALL these fundamentalist families are.

I guess I was just speculating why the Bates seem to get married off quickly, as opposed to other ATI families whose blogs I follow. Whether you like it or not, their chipper personality is something fundie men are taught to value in women, and gives them an advantage in those circles. "Sweet" and "joyous" are labels these girls/women forced to aspire to, and the Bates have definitely succeeded at that. Secondly, their parents do brainwash them about the positive aspects of mariage and minimize the negatives. I don't see many other fundie patriarchs doing Gil's teary-eyed love declarations all the time. 

They have built their whole brand around the "happy family" image and Gil reaps all the benefits from it, including TV money, being on IBLP's board and getting tons of speaking engagements (Big Sandy...). What goes on behind closed doors, of course, is something else. Oh, to be a fly on the wall.

I've been around ATI families for a long time and the Bates have hardly cornered the market when it comes to being chipper. And yeah, for the camera Gil is being all teary-eyed when he declares love, but there is no way that goes on all the time. There also is no way Gil and Kelly have a perfect relationship where they don't fight or go through bad times and since they lived in such a tiny, tiny house, the kids had to have seen that and know that marriage can be rough. Those kids have lived through rough times of begging people to give them things and even for grifters, the poverty the Bates lived in had to be stressful on Gil and Kelly. 

The point of my other post is that even among chipper, social ATI families, the Bates are odd in how many quickly kids leave the home the only approved way of doing that. In a house where the father thinks it is okay to cover up horrific abuse, exploit children for money, and mounts cameras all over the home so he can monitor every tiny thing an adult child does, well I'm just not buying that that is a super happy home where kids would want to stay.  

I also suspect that their reality television fame and Gil's position in ATI goes a long, long way in making it easy for them to snatch up a spouse and leave home. 

@19 cats and counting thank you for reminding me that Kelly took a pregnancy test in a gas station bathroom. She is as baby obsessed as Michelle. 

[Diana]

I don't find weird how many of the Bates kids are getting married, after all the purpose in life for all those fundies is marriage, if most dont marry that young or even end single its because they have troubles finding a spouse because they are socially awkward, dont have a social life outside their families, dont know how to interact with the other gender or dont even care to dress and look good. The Bates are all very good looking, outgoing people, with a good reputation among their circles, well connected, are used to have visits at home... the kind of people that are attractive for other fundies.

[fundiesarefascinating]

14 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

 

I also suspect that their reality television fame and Gil's position in ATI goes a long, long way in making it easy for them to snatch up a spouse and leave home. 

 

Snipped for length.  I agree.  I think that that Bates have done a good job making their children, in particular their daughters look very marriageable.  I would imagine that fundie men who watch the show or interact with the Bates see what godly wives Erin and Michael are.  Erin in particular is a poster child for fundie wife - willing to take major health risks in order to birth as many as possible, her instagram is full of homemaking and praise for Chad.  And then if godly wife isn't their thing they can see Alyssa the "hot" fundie wife who wears pants and isn't controlled by her parents, so their is assurance that they would actually be the headship in their home, not Gil. 

[freethemall]

6 hours ago, EmainMacha said:

The comments in one of the pics mentions that the party was being filmed by UP (unsurprisingly) so I imagine their courtship, if that's what it is, will be announced before that episode airs. 

They can easily leave him out. They've left out Ashley before - she was at Michael's wedding. It seems they do a season per new couple and only once they've had the "official" courting "proposal", so I doubt we'll see him until the end of this season, at the earliest. These shows all run everything late (insert Duggar Time or Late Bates joke).

[BeccaGrim]

3 hours ago, vienna said:

I really think most people here know about the IBPL Lawsuit and recovering grace as well as about fundis in general, Never teh less I agree with BeccaGrimm an many others. And it is no wrong to say/have the Impression that the Bates seem mentally healthier than the Duggars (low bar), I rellay think they are and thats a good Thing. There are believes that I simply don´t share and ther are believes that I consider dangerous. The Duggar and the Bates have both of such believes to me. But although both families share the same believes they seem to practice a lot of them differently and this to the benefit of mental health for the Bates. One can aknowlegde this. As with each religion there are 1000 way to believe or live by "the same book". Some are better some are worse. It gives me a bit of hope, whem a Family of influence within the cult does things a bit better. This can influence a lot of other families within the cult and make life a Little better for some. And this is a good Thing. It does not mean supporting partriarchy or ATI or Gothard and so on.

Better does not have to mean good, but better is better than same or worse...

I just want to be clear, I know how scary the Bates and Duggars and those like them are.  I am appalled by it all.  I was responding to a post about why the Bates family are all finding spouses versus the Duggars and others.  I just thought they came across as happier.  But, I believe all the negative stuff and have been reading the links.  I'll be more educated. I am not a fan. 

[GreyhoundFan]

3 hours ago, 19 cats and counting said:

This.

I hate to bring politics into this, but if you look at the GOP race (excluding The Donald), John Kasich comes across as a moderate.  While in that race, he may appear moderate, he's just as dangerous (if not more because he appeals to moderate).

ETA-- The Duggars are Ted Cruz and the Bateses are John Kasich.

Your post made me think of a quote I read in the Washington Post. God help me, I'm quoting Lindsey Graham here. "Choosing between Donald Trump and Ted Cruz is like choosing between being "shot or poisoned." (source below, link broken). Choosing between the Duggars and Bates is the same -- do you want to be shot or poisoned?

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/03/02/lindsey-graham-who-joked-about-killing-ted-cruz-now-thinks-cruz-is-the-only-hope-to-stop-trump/