Me-ternity leave?

[EyeQueue]

What do you all think of this idea? I would assume that it could also extend to men, but this author seems to focus exclusively on women.

I have heard other women talk about this. Also the extra medical, etc. benefits that can be had for children. If there are childfree people who would like to have similar benefits, but extended to pets (because pets are part of your family), is that too much to ask? Would it be better to have a menu of benefits that you can choose from so that everyone gets something over and above just their yearly vacation time?

I'm not quite sure how to feel about this. I understand that these resources are outlaid for childrearing because raising children and caring for them so that they will be productive members of society is an activity that will presumably benefit all of us in the future. I do think, though, that the harassment she has received just for daring to bring this issue up is a bit over the top. She had to cancel her Good Morning America appearance because of the backlash, which I think is ridiculous. And the comments on the article that came up on my newsfeed (from a local news channel) were horrible.

http://nypost.com/2016/04/28/i-want-all-the-perks-of-maternity-leave-without-having-any-kids/

[Maggie Mae]

I think we should all be given the opportunity to take "maternity" leave every 3 years. Men, Women. If you choose to have a child during your sabbatical, that's your business. Or you could use it to build a home, be there for a remodel, go to maui, train/housebreak a dog, adopt a child, work on a book, train for a triathlon, or go abroad, I don't see how it's any different.  

But before we talk about giving everyone more vacation time, I'd like to say that a bigger issue in the workplace (because at least maternity leave is understandable, if not convenient or fair) is the idea that parents need holidays off more than non-parents. Or the fact that parents are offered flexible scheduling more often. Minor rule breakage is explained away by "i have kids, you wouldn't understand". The idea that only people with kids can be responsible, but they are also more likely to be late or need to leave early.

[catlady]

i'm very mixed about this.  on the surface, she's missing the point that maternity leave is not a vacation, but rather time to bond with one's new baby.  if there's no baby, there's no bonding. and not every mother gets three months anyway.  yes, the FMLA guarantees that a qualified employer must hold mom's job for 12 weeks, but New York grants only 6 weeks of disability pay (maxed at $170/week; fathers don't get anything), so most new mothers at my employer are back on the job in less than 2 months.  and it's *not* a vacation (i do not have kids, but i'm still well-aware of this).  i'd probably have to read her book to see the full extent of her point.

what Ms. Foye is really looking for is a sabbatical program.  i can get on board with that, like what @Maggie Mae says above.  i've worked in payroll for 20+ years, so i'm always on deadline, and my timelines are probably similar to hers.  i'd love to take a month off in the summer and be outside all day every day.  it could always be done, but when someone in my department goes on any type of time away, the work of the one leaving must be absorbed by the others in addition to their own.

i've seen plenty of parents leave work earlier than me, but at the same time we work as a team by nature of the job.  that's the way things are, and we all learned to deal with it.  Ms. Foye's example of the stood-up friend would (IMO) still take a backseat to a toddler who needs to be picked up at day care, but if she communicates effectively with her employer and coworkers, she'd be able to have time for a friend in crisis.  she seems a little too focused on the minutiae of yours-and-mine.

[EyeQueue]

I think the sabbatical idea is a good one, and I wish more employers offered it. It would speak to the "personal development" issue that Ms. Foye addresses in her article: the idea that she's seen many women leave on maternity leave and also get some level of personal enrichment and because they have the chance to re-orient themselves might get an idea to start a business, etc.

The sabbatical would give everyone chance for that.

But I agree that there are some people who have the attitude, "I have kids, so I get to do X, Y, or Z." Fortunately, my workplace is pretty flexible for everyone, and this doesn't come up much. It seems like people in my office typically pull together whenever someone has to be out for whatever reason, and I haven't heard much disgruntlement.

But, I think that's largely a function of my workplace being super flexible (I work for a major public university). Not everyone has that, and I think more in the private sector things can get more antagonistic and perhaps unfair.

[Walking Cat Bed]

I'm a huge supporter of fair medical leave: if someone, say, breaks a leg and is more comfortable working from home during recovery (or taking a few weeks off to focus on recovery before easing back into work), they should have that time available. Because maternity leave, at least the initial month or two, is equally about recovery from childbirth as it is about mother-baby bonding, the medical aspect of maternity leave should have corresponding medical leave available to all.

Likewise, personal time off should be available to all who qualify. After the recovery time, the rest of maternity leave is bonding (and adjusting to the demands of a baby). 

I'm very, very childfree, and I have no problem with maternity leave -- even as a special category. But it's very frustrating to know that, in many workplaces, maternity leave is provided in addition to standard medical and personal leave -- and that the alleged guaranteed job protection isn't always available for non-maternity crises. 

 

I'm also not a huge fan of parents taking advantage of their kids' existence to arrive late, leave early, skip out on shifts, and otherwise let the non-parents in their workplace pick up the slack. (I know this isn't universal.) Or other double standards, both in the workplace and by society -- for example, when I've worked in the graduate student space for my program, I'm expected to keep my music confined to headphones or very quiet. A particular student has a toddler, and said toddler has sat in her cubicle while she (the student) is working on a project. I'd consider toddler shrieks more disruptive than my usual working music, but I can't do much about it; I'm expected to ignore a toddler in what should be a quiet work area. But that's another thing entirely.

 

 

[Kailash]

Slightly off topic, but still related. One time at work (at a restaurant), I couldn't find one of the girls (she was 16) I was working with. Someone said she was taking out the trash. So I go out to the dumpster and this girl is taking a selfie of herself with the trash. When the manager asked her about it she said "Other people get to take smoke breaks. I take selfie breaks." She didn't get in trouble, and we all laughed and went about our day.

[SilverBeach]

Stupidest damn thing I ever heard, or at least one of the stupidest. 

[SilverBeach]

Annual leave (vacation time) and sabatticals have always  been available to all, I don't see a problem here. 

Maternity leave is hardly me time, as a matter of fact it is the polar opposite. It's baby time! In America the typical six weeks is a drop in the bucket compared to European nations. Add on inadequate and unaffordable childcare and it's a bleak picture especially for lower income or single parents. Why is America so hostile to parents and families?

Mommy wars serve no purpose, and I think it is immature to begrudge the "benefits" others get because of circumstances different than your own. It's like folks grumbling because someone has a handicapped placard, but would you want the congestive heart failure, COPD, or whatever other condition they have?

 

[SilverBeach]

4 hours ago, Walking Cat Bed said:

I'm a huge supporter of fair medical leave: if someone, say, breaks a leg and is more comfortable working from home during recovery (or taking a few weeks off to focus on recovery before easing back into work), they should have that time available. Because maternity leave, at least the initial month or two, is equally about recovery from childbirth as it is about mother-baby bonding, the medical aspect of maternity leave should have corresponding medical leave available to all.

Likewise, personal time off should be available to all who qualify. After the recovery time, the rest of maternity leave is bonding (and adjusting to the demands of a baby). 

I'm very, very childfree, and I have no problem with maternity leave -- even as a special category. But it's very frustrating to know that, in many workplaces, maternity leave is provided in addition to standard medical and personal leave -- and that the alleged guaranteed job protection isn't always available for non-maternity crises. 

 

I'm also not a huge fan of parents taking advantage of their kids' existence to arrive late, leave early, skip out on shifts, and otherwise let the non-parents in their workplace pick up the slack. (I know this isn't universal.) Or other double standards, both in the workplace and by society -- for example, when I've worked in the graduate student space for my program, I'm expected to keep my music confined to headphones or very quiet. A particular student has a toddler, and said toddler has sat in her cubicle while she (the student) is working on a project. I'd consider toddler shrieks more disruptive than my usual working music, but I can't do much about it; I'm expected to ignore a toddler in what should be a quiet work area. But that's another thing entirely.

 

 

There are certain mandates, like FMLA, which everyone can use, same with sick leave/ disability. No difference between pregnancy and broken legs, that's what Federal law requires.

I think it's largely a myth that parents seek special privileges. Flexibility is what is wanted. Parents who know they have to leave every day at a certain time will hustle and not waste time for chatting, then get accused of being unfriendly. It's a no win situation. 

I have a 90 year old mother and although my child is grown I have to unxpectedly deal with her issues. I get my work done too. It's is not a day in the park taking care if children or parents, a problem that childless folks can have too. How about a little compassion?

[Maggie Mae]

6 minutes ago, SilverBeach said:

There are certain mandates, like FMLA, which everyone can use, same with sick leave/ disability. No difference between pregnancy and broken legs, that's what Federal law requires.

I think it's largely a myth that parents seek special privileges. Flexibility is what is wanted. Parents who know they have to leave every day at a certain time will hustle and not waste time for chatting, then get accused of being unfriendly. It's a no win situation. 

I have a 90 year old mother and although my child is grown I have to unxpectedly deal with her issues. I get my work done too. It's is not a day in the park taking care if children or parents, a problem that childless folks can have too. How about a little compassion?

It's not a myth. I've lived it. Are you going to discount my experiences because it doesn't fit in with your claim that it's a myth? Childfree people are constantly being told that we "don't understand" that "we need to show compassion" and then being asked to work more/late because so and so has a child or two. But when we ask for the same flexibility, it's not there for us. 

I don't think it's unreasonable for people who aren't interested in having children to also get a few weeks off every few years on top of the annual leave. Like mothers. What makes them so special for being able to reproduce? 

And I've heard from more than one person that the myths surrounding pregnancy and childbirth are completely overblown. A few of my friends told me they seem to have more time than ever, that it's not anywhere near as hard as the media makes it out to be, and that they loved having so much time off to relax and get back into shape. I too would like a few weeks off to do a bootcamp and spend time with my family and clean my house. 

[FundieFarmer]

I've never heard of sabbaticals being available in any profession I've worked, and I have to say that the vacation time we have is not really enough when you factor in that it also is decreased for things like day-to-day life things like physician appointments and the like. It's especially difficult when you have a chronic condition, and vacation days turn into sick days.

I get why she's saying there's a need for me-ternity leave. I mean there are days when I look at my to do list and I'm like, ONE WEEK OFF IS NOT ENOUGH I NEED A MONTH GIVE ME A MONTH OFF NOW!!!!!!!! It's just the nature of being constantly in demand. But taking a vacation for yourself isn't the same thing as raising a baby in that time. One is refreshing and renewing and one is anything but (while exciting!).

And I don't think that we can or should ever try to dictate a timeframe on when maternity leave can be taken. I think that could turn into a rights mess quite quickly [emoji16]

[Maggie Mae]

The other thing is that childfree people have lives too, but parents sometimes don't "get" that our needs and/or wants are important as well. It's as important to me to be able to do whatever I had planned as it is for the parents to see their kids soccer game or whatever. Parents made a choice to reproduce and I think since they made that choice, they need to live with that choice. If that means that they can't work the same job because the hours aren't great for child-raising, then they should be the one to find a new job. Not force everyone else to work for them and deal with their schedule. 

Workplace should be flexible too. I mean, a lot of office jobs don't necessarily require that someone come to an office and do the work there within a specified time-frame. More employers should be offering flexible schedules and work-from-home options. Not only does it make for happier, more productive employees, but it saves money, it saves fossil fuels, and there is really no reason NOT to have those options available

. 

[SilverBeach]

25 minutes ago, Maggie Mae said:

It's not a myth. I've lived it. Are you going to discount my experiences because it doesn't fit in with your claim that it's a myth? Childfree people are constantly being told that we "don't understand" that "we need to show compassion" and then being asked to work more/late because so and so has a child or two. But when we ask for the same flexibility, it's not there for us. 

I don't think it's unreasonable for people who aren't interested in having children to also get a few weeks off every few years on top of the annual leave. Like mothers. What makes them so special for being able to reproduce? 

And I've heard from more than one person that the myths surrounding pregnancy and childbirth are completely overblown. A few of my friends told me they seem to have more time than ever, that it's not anywhere near as hard as the media makes it out to be, and that they loved having so much time off to relax and get back into shape. I too would like a few weeks off to do a bootcamp and spend time with my family and clean my house. 

Why such hostility? In the US Federal service, parents get no special paid leave but can avail themselves of FMLA leave which is not restricted to parents only. I worked for over a decade before having a child and becoming a single parent. Before I became a parent, I did not notice disparate treatment given to parents that affected me in any way. 

People can and do need help at work, for many reasons. Have a fur baby appt.? Need to wait for a delivery or the cable guy? Having a surgical procedure requiring weeks of recuperation and physical therapy afterwards? How about weekly counseling? I have experience childless coworkers with all of this and never begrudged them at all.

Special? No. I was a single parent and it was the hardest damn thing I ever did, so God bless the women you know who described maternity leave as a cakewalk. I developed uterine polyps shortly after giving birth, almost bled out, and needed an emergency D&C before my six weeks was up. Anybody who thought I was at home eating bonbons was sorely mistaken, but I felt no need to broadcast mybpersonal health information to disabuse anyone of that notion.

The bottom line is this, everyone should have  compassion for everyone else who is doing the best they can within their individual circumstances. Like it or not, many of the workplace flexibilities that are now commonplace (flexiplace, flexitime, job sharing, professional part-time work) are because of the influx of women into the workplace attempting to juggle it all. Parents are not the enemy!

 

[SilverBeach]

And if your employer unfairly burdens you with work, or does not grant the same flexibility to you as to the parents you work with, you have a management problem. It is not the fault of the parents in your workplace. Try speaking up about it instead of resenting the parents. People without children cnbalso have complex lives and need flexibility too, regularly or occasionally.

[Mercer]

I think the author has a really good basic point - that American workers need more time available to tend to their mental health, medical, and personal development needs - but calling it "me-ternity" and acting like it is somehow in opposition to maternity leave just muddies the waters and creates conflict where there doesn't need to be any. This should be a way of benefiting everyone, not pitting parents against non-parents. It shouldn't have to be a competition.

[Childless]

My company only offers FMLA and short term disability as maternity leave.  All employees get the same thing regardless if they're giving birth or having surgery.  Of course, I work for a Japanese owned company.  The Japanese are well known for being stingy with benefits.  Some of my fellow co-workers inquired about flextime and working from home and were told that it would never happen.

[roddma]

 No one said caring for a baby is easy, but my friend didn't choose to have MS. Flex leave should be for all. We need a plan to keep people from losing their jobs when caring for an older relative, a family member, including kids, with extended illnesses, or workers themselves with long-term health needs. Family care extends beyond birthing babies. Anyone who plans to have kids should plan way ahead.

P.S.. Babies need tot bond with dad, too.

[EyeQueue]

I agree. Sabbaticals are not available in every job. In the US not even in a significant minority of jobs. It's really rare.

And I have heard of even vacation time being allotted preferentially for parents first during the rush times (at holidays, during certain times during the summer), and those without children having to take what's left over.

Again, where I work this is not the case, but I've known friends who have had this issue, and I have even had it in other work places years ago.

So there is something to some of what Ms. Foye is saying (as borne out by other commenters on this thread also).

ETA: @Mercer: You have an excellent point, and that dovetails I think with my remark of everyone having access to a sort of menu of options--not just parents.

[Shiny]

2 hours ago, Mercer said:

I think the author has a really good basic point - that American workers need more time available to tend to their mental health, medical, and personal development needs - but calling it "me-ternity" and acting like it is somehow in opposition to maternity leave just muddies the waters and creates conflict where there doesn't need to be any. This should be a way of benefiting everyone, not pitting parents against non-parents. It shouldn't have to be a competition.

Agree 100%. 

I think Americans need to have a real discussion about extended vacation or sabbaticals, or whatever we want to call it. Many people in the US get little to no vacation time at all, let alone sick days. Calling it "me-ternity" and comparing it to maternity leave is ridiculous and absolutely creates conflict.  

[ViolaSebastian]

Quote

And I have heard of even vacation time being allotted preferentially for parents first during the rush times (at holidays, during certain times during the summer), and those without children having to take what's left over.

This was the case about ten years ago when I worked a customer service job that required staffing on Christmas Day and New Year's Day. Those with children were given first dibs on having Christmas Day off. I didn't mind it, for the most part, until my niece was born right before Christmas and I wanted to visit her.

[SilverBeach]

Wherever I have worked leave around the holidays has been based on seniority. 

[SilverBeach]

58 minutes ago, EyeQueue said:

I agree. Sabbaticals are not available in every job. In the US not even in a significant minority of jobs. It's really rare.

And I have heard of even vacation time being allotted preferentially for parents first during the rush times (at holidays, during certain times during the summer), and those without children having to take what's left over.

Again, where I work this is not the case, but I've known friends who have had this issue, and I have even had it in other work places years ago.

So there is something to some of what Ms. Foye is saying (as borne out by other commenters on this thread also).

ETA: @Mercer: You have an excellent point, and that dovetails I think with my remark of everyone having access to a sort of menu of options--not just parents.

But is is impossible for a person without a child to have maternity leave, the purpose of which is to care for a baby. I simply do not see the problem. Maternity leave is in no way shape or form meternity, it's apples and oranges.

Unpaid leave is an illusion that not every new parent can afford, therefore some can't even take the six weeks! The average infant doesn't even start sleeping through the night until three months, so yeah working with chronic sleep deprivation might cause a temporary performance slip, so might dialysis or chemotherapy for that matter. And ALL FLMA leave is unpaid. Who can afford that, I couldn't have.

Look, if you want a sabatticals or whatever, go ask your employer about it! Not all arrangements are publicized. Or find a company that offers what you want. Rather than grouse about supposed preferential treatment afforded to parents (different is also not preferential, by the way), why not advocate for what you want and need? Note that sabatticals are typically unpaid also.

Maybe all new mothers should just leave the workforce like back in the 50s. Is that what some of you want? Women haven't made much progress after all if these kinds of discussions are still taking place. It's disappointing.

I reiterate that flexible workplace policies are codified and apply to all employees, unless maybe you work for a mom and pop shop, which I never have. A new mother would surely like a sabattical, and to take meternity leave and not have to care for the doggone baby while she is off from work. Maternity leave is not a sabattical or meternity leave, not in the least bit. It is qualitatively different. 

And here we go again, the never ending mommy wars. Why? 

[SilverBeach]

I do not begrudge my co-workers who maximize their leave each year and travel to exotic locales for weeks at a time, who are unencumbered with children or elderly parents. They use the system to their advantage and more power to them! We have different lives and that is OK. It is not me against them. 

[Walking Cat Bed]

I'm not at "war" with anyone. 

 

I do find it frustrating when women my age and younger (early 30s and younger) who don't have children are either assumed to just be waiting to get pregnant, or that we have time to come in early or stay late or cover others' shifts -- because we're the ones without children and our time is expendable. Adding an extra shift last-minute or coming in on a day off is "easy" for us, because we don't have to worry about childcare. And I find it frustrating to perpetually be in the "last hired, first fired" tier, because as a woman without children, it's not like I'm supporting myself or anything -- surely I have parents or a boyfriend/husband paying the bills. (I'm still one more graduate degree away from being valuable based on my own merit.) And, because it comes up occasionally, I'm not there to babysit. 

 

And, yes, that's more about management than my "peers" -- most of the time. There's always the one person in any office, though, that is on the same schedule as everyone else but always ducks out early (not On Time, *early*) because their kids have karate practice. But that's one person in any given workplace, not every parent. 

[EyeQueue]

I don't think anyone here has said we want to roll it back to the 50s and have women leave the workforce. I'm not sure where you got that impression.

I posted the link to this article because this issue has come up with several people I know--people who don't intend to have children ever, and who feel some inequality in the workforce. Not just in relation to maternity leave, but in relation to some of the other issues other commenters here have brought up.

I think Ms. Foye chose an unfortunate name for her concept that does pit parents against non-parents, which is not what I want to see, nor does it seem like that's what other commenters here want to see.

Like @Walking Cat Bed acknowledges above, there's a not insignificant swathe of women and men--and this number might be increasing--who have no plans to have children, and that's fine. So, are there ways the workplace can accommodate similar needs in what seems like possibly an imbalance in the way the current system is set up?

And sometimes it's not so easy as to just go out and find a new job. Jobs are pretty hard to find right now, I think. I'm fortunate to not have had to deal with that issue since just after the recession hit, but there are probably those who are locked into jobs who don't have the luxury to just quit and find something else.

Incidentally, the sabbaticals in the two industries I am familiar with (academia and the high-tech sector) are generally paid. I haven't even heard of other industries offering such a thing.