Ben, Jessa, Spurgeon Six

[Jinder Roles]

30 minutes ago, foreign fundie said:

I agree with your final statement. But a newborn African American adopted into a white family does not acquire that culture. (Which is in my opinion a loss, and part of the unavoidable tragedy of adoption)

For example, if my Swedish fried adopts a Ugandan infant, that child will become for all intents and purposes Swedish. It will have a Swedish name, a Swedish education, world view, dress style, value system, and so on. Every body who knows him, will view him and treat him as Swedish. Prejudice may be experienced from people who don't know him, and may think he is a refugee. But the moment they start talking together, they will know he is Swedish and usually perceptions will change. After all he is just like them, only a black version.

So parents would have to deal with the issues of how their children are perceived by strangers. And apart from that they would have to deal with the usual adoption related identity issues. 

But within their family, skin color issues should not exist. I don't say they should be ignored. They shouldn't exist. The child is yours. It has your name. If skin color is an issue for you, positive or negative, you are not ready to adopt in my opinion. 

No matter how society sees your kid or how the kid may view itself later on, you should view him as your kid, not as your black kid.

Now I realise when you adopt an older child it is completely different, and the child comes with much more than just his skin color. In that case the childs culture somehow has to find a place in your family culture. That is a whole different challenge. Especially in a country where African American culture has such strong connotations. 

 

I agree with @patsymae that America and Europe are different. However, I have to disagree with the bolded that a black child not being fully assimilated into white culture is tragic. Like I said before, we do not live in a post-racial society anywhere in the world. And while racism and prejudice may manifest itself differently in Europe, it is still a factor, and an important one. 

A black child will never be fully assimilated into whiteness, because they're black. And that's okay. Their adoptive parents should educate themselves and be socially aware of that fact. Yes, the child is your child. No, you being aware of your child's blackness does not diminish your love for them. No, being aware of your child's blackness is not the same as exotifying them.  No, trying to erase the existence of your child's skin colour from your memory will not protect them from racism and discrimination (they're gonna experience it in whatever way it manifests itself) 

In a perfect world maybe skin colour wouldn't matter at all, but we don't live in a perfect world. There is a very long and traumatic history with black people and their interactions with whites (and it has a lasting impact). Colorblindness is a harmful concept. 

 

[foreign fundie]

57 minutes ago, patsymae said:

Obviously an African American child being raised by whites in the US is in a different situation than a Ugandan in Sweden. And the US child definitely needs to acquire and be familiar with African American culture-- he is not just a white person with darker skin. geez. Pretending different is a tragedy if transracial adoption That is totally avoidable. again, this isn't Europe. Not Europe.

I obviously have trouble understanding. So if a white American couple adopts a black newborn , they have to somehow make him culturally African American? Why and HOW would they do that? In my understanding, an infant has a family heritage and genes, but no culture. That is formed by his upbringing. And if parents legally adopt, the child is theirs to raise according to their own culture. He would never be 'African American' even if they tried.

I have lived abroad for a long time and have done everything in my power to make my children adapt to local culture. Local schools, local food, local language, still my kids are very European, even the one that was born here. Because we are. If I would adopt a local infant, it would be no different. He could function in this country, but still be very much European in world view. He'd be one of us. Come to us in an unusual way, but otherwise no different from my kids.

Now if a white American couple would adopt from Uganda, would they also have to raise their child African American? Raise him to aquire a culture his parents nor his adopted parents know? Just because he is black and lives in America?

My understanding is that it is not our skin color that determines our cultural identity, but our upbringing. So yes, a black infant adopted by whites would culturally be like his parents. And if a black couple would adopt a white child, that child would be African American by culture. Now how society would perceive them, that is another matter. But why should their family treat them as different because of their color?  Or force them to acquire a culture they have no affinity with? (Again speaking about infant adoption, not children with cultural and linguistic awareness)

 

10 minutes ago, Jinder Roles said:

I agree with @patsymae that America and Europe are different. However, I have to disagree with the bolded that a black child not being fully assimilated into white culture is tragic. Like I said before, we do not live in a post-racial society anywhere in the world. And while racism and prejudice may manifest itself differently in Europe, it is still a factor, and an important one. 

A black child will never be fully assimilated into whiteness, because they're black. And that's okay. Their adoptive parents should educate themselves and be socially aware of that fact. Yes, the child is your child. No, you being aware of your child's blackness does not diminish your love for them. No, being aware of your child's blackness is not the same as exotifying them.  No, trying to erase the existence of your child's skin colour from your memory will not protect them from racism and discrimination (they're gonna experience it in whatever way it manifests itself) 

In a perfect world maybe skin colour wouldn't matter at all, but we don't live in a perfect world. There is a very long and traumatic history with black people and their interactions with whites (and it has a lasting impact). Colorblindness is a harmful concept. 

 

I meant that that an African American infant adopted into a white family does not acquire African American cultural identity. They will culturally be like their parents. And although it is kind of sad the child will not really identify deeply with his biological parents' culture, that is kind of unavoidable. (I have edited the post to clarify). Hopefully it makes sense now.

[guitar_villain]

3 hours ago, Hera said:

Honest question: what should transracial adoptive parents do to both facilitate the adaptation of an adopted child of another race into the culture they are raised in, but also preserve that child's understanding of its hereditary culture and not alienate exploration of/identification with it? The whole "I love seeing my brown kids with my white wife" and "I'm special for being the white dude in the room" isn't it. Obviously.  But, assuming upper/middle class white Americans are thinking of adopting and want a child of any race, how should they approach this?  

I have two transracially adopted kids: I'd like to think we try, but I'm not sure I can say we do a great job.  We try to make sure to do things like integrate more black history into their experiences- when we go on vacations we stop at places like Little Rock High School and Booker T. Washington's birthplace, and we try to point out important things as we see them.  I'm not real fond of many of the messages in modern black music and culture, but then the entire point of parents is to hate modern culture.  I at least try to redirect them away from gangsta hip-hop to stuff like Prince.  (RIP)  I'd happily do things like change cooking except older son is so picky I can't get him to eat it.  We live in a fairly white area, but there is at least enough black/white/Latino diversity they don't seem to feel out of place.  Amusingly, both kids are serious extroverts unlike mom and dad, and #2 especially is the sort of kid who's friends with everyone.  That said, one of the folks I work with actually moved an hour away since their Chinese daughter was the only one in the entire school and the environment didn't feel as welcoming for her.

One bit that helped my younger son a lot was getting genetically typed.  We know nothing about either birthfather, and when he found out he could learn where he originally came from he was hugely excited.  Older son was reluctant until younger got his results, then had it done too. It turns out they are quite similar- both families almost certainly came over as slaves, and while not a "good" way it gives them some grounding about their ancestors. 

Sadly, a lot of it is negative.  We've had to have "the talk" a couple of times already- not about sex, but about how young black men have to behave around police.  They *must* understand I'm going to get the benefit of doubt and they may very well not.

Honestly, at this point in their lives I think the black bit is pretty far down on their list of problems/concerns- both have other issues they are working on, and their therapists have never mentioned worries about racial stuff.   When it does pop up we do our best to listen.

One bit I always think back on when I might have screwed up- there was a great talk by a (black) transracial adoption advocate about this issue, and he commented that one thing he heard a lot was that white people wouldn't be able to deal with black problems such as their kids being called the n-word.  He then commented that growing up he had that happen, and when he was old enough to be confused about it he went to his parents.  His mom commented that it was just a word and couldn't hurt him.  His dad's advice was to see if the other kid was alone, and if there were any sticks, rocks or other weapons available- if the answer was yes to both to go to town on him.  Thus, don't be too hard on white parents for not knowing- black ones don't seem to know either.

[Jinder Roles]

36 minutes ago, foreign fundie said:

I obviously have trouble understanding. So if a white American couple adopts a black newborn , they have to somehow make him culturally African American? Why and HOW would they do that? In my understanding, an infant has a family heritage and genes, but no culture. That is formed by his upbringing. And if parents legally adopt, the child is theirs to raise according to their own culture. He would never be 'African American' even if they tried.

I have lived abroad for a long time and have done everything in my power to make my children adapt to local culture. Local schools, local food, local language, still my kids are very European, even the one that was born here. Because we are. If I would adopt a local infant, it would be no different. He could function in this country, but still be very much European in world view. He'd be one of us. Come to us in an unusual way, but otherwise no different from my kids.

Now if a white American couple would adopt from Uganda, would they also have to raise their child African American? Raise him to aquire a culture his parents nor his adopted parents know? Just because he is black and lives in America?

My understanding is that it is not our skin color that determines our cultural identity, but our upbringing. So yes, a black infant adopted by whites would culturally be like his parents. And if a black couple would adopt a white child, that child would be African American by culture. Now how society would perceive them, that is another matter. But why should their family treat them as different because of their color?  Or force them to acquire a culture they have no affinity with? (Again speaking about infant adoption, not children with cultural and linguistic awareness)

 

I meant that that an African American infant adopted into a white family does not acquire African American cultural identity. They will culturally be like their parents. And although it is kind of sad the child will not really identify deeply with his biological parents' culture, that is kind of unavoidable. (I have edited the post to clarify). Hopefully it makes sense now.

What do you even mean by "African American cultural identity"? You understand that black people aren't a monolith right? 

I think you're placing too much emphasis on cultural identity. Race is a part of someone's identity period. You're kid is African-American anyways, you don't have to 'raise' them to be so (whatever that means). Whether or not a child engages in so called African-American culture (which varies greatly), that kid is still black. And one can be exposed to 'culture' in many ways, not just through parents. How do you know that an adoptive kid will have no affinity to their culture/race just because they're raised by people of a different culture/race? (that's for the child to decide).

Adoptive white parents do not operate separate from society. In some way are another, the way they view their child's blackness is informed by society. And in some way or another their adoptive child's identity/experience is informed by society. This is why it is better to be socially aware and sensitive to that fact. You don't have to be the same to be equal. You don't have to erase a part of a child's identity in an attempt to be 'fair'. 

I don't think it's accurate to compare your children's European-ness to an adoptive black child's experience. Nationalism and race do not work the same way. 

And, no a white child adopted by black parents is not African-American. They're still white. 

What I'm trying to get at is, no matter what you do you're adoptive black kid will still be black. Culture doesn't make someone a black or white. Erasing a part of your kid's identity for some post-racial ideal is not the way to go. 

Now everybody say it with me; We do not live in a post-racial society!!11!!1

 

 

 

[foreign fundie]

58 minutes ago, Jinder Roles said:

What do you even mean by "African American cultural identity"? You understand that black people aren't a monolith right? 

I think you're placing too much emphasis on cultural identity. Race is a part of someone's identity period. You're kid is African-American anyways, you don't have to 'raise' them to be so (whatever that means). Whether or not a child engages in so called African-American culture (which varies greatly), that kid is still black. And one can be exposed to 'culture' in many ways, not just through parents. How do you know that an adoptive kid will have no affinity to their culture/race just because they're raised by people of a different culture/race? (that's for the child to decide).

Adoptive white parents do not operate separate from society. In some way are another, the way they view their child's blackness is informed by society. And in some way or another their adoptive child's identity/experience is informed by society. This is why it is better to be socially aware and sensitive to that fact. You don't have to be the same to be equal. You don't have to erase a part of a child's identity in an attempt to be 'fair'. 

I don't think it's accurate to compare your children's European-ness to an adoptive black child's experience. Nationalism and race do not work the same way. 

And, no a white child adopted by black parents is not African-American. They're still white. 

What I'm trying to get at is, no matter what you do you're adoptive black kid will still be black. Culture doesn't make someone a black or white. Erasing a part of your kid's identity for some post-racial ideal is not the way to go. 

Now everybody say it with me; We do not live in a post-racial society!!11!!1

 

 

 

This is absolutely fascinating. So assuming many people think like you, Americans really do hold that people are different 'races'. I thought that was an outdated concept since we are incredibly similar genetically and can all cross-breed so to speak. 

But that explains the confusion. For me wheather a person is black, yellow, white or brown, is really only a matter of color, or body type if you will. A minimal difference in genetics that is morally and socially speaking completely neutral. It does not determine your word view, your intelligence, your morals, your capacities or anything else important. 

What matters is the culture you grow up in. That shapes your identity on a deep level. My adopted cousins are just like me apart from their color. I believe if I was adopted into a black American family as an infant, and they would raise me as their own, I would be just like them, apart from their color.

But as long as you continue to see a black person as a different type of human (better or worse), yes, you will never have a post-racial society.

I connect with people on the basis of shared values, not on the basis of color. Where I live, no one has my color, so I'd be pretty lonely if I would. 

Anyway, very enlightening to follow this conversation.

 

[Jinder Roles]

31 minutes ago, foreign fundie said:

This is absolutely fascinating. So assuming many people think like you, Americans really do hold that people are different 'races'. I thought that was an outdated concept since we are incredibly similar genetically and can all cross-breed so to speak. 

But that explains the confusion. For me wheather a person is black, yellow, white or brown, is really only a matter of color, or body type if you will. A minimal difference in genetics that is morally and socially speaking completely neutral. It does not determine your word view, your intelligence, your morals, your capacities or anything else important. 

What matters is the culture you grow up in. That shapes your identity on a deep level. My adopted cousins are just like me apart from their color. I believe if I was adopted into a black American family as an infant, and they would raise me as their own, I would be just like them, apart from their color.

But as long as you continue to see a black person as a different type of human (better or worse), yes, you will never have a post-racial society.

I connect with people on the basis of shared values, not on the basis of color. Where I live, no one has my color, so I'd be pretty lonely if I would. 

Anyway, very enlightening to follow this conversation.

 

Okay, a few things:

1)  I'm not American. 

2)  I understand that biologically there isn't really 'race'. Race is a social-construct. Race and racism is ingrained into powerful institutions. It is structural. It is a part of society. Many powerful institutions are founded on racism. And I'm sorry but because racism is systemic it does affect interpersonal relationships and behaviours. Nobody functions completely independent of society. 

3) You deciding race is 'outdated' is exercising a privilege that people of colour do not have. (I'm assuming you're not POC because you just don't seem to get it). I can't ignore the fact that I'm black because (of  a violent history, discrimination, collective memory, how society perceives me, colonialism and yes culture) it is a part of my identity. Race is not only informed by culture. 

4) It's a nice idea that race shouldn't matter at all but it does. Pretending it doesn't will not end discrimination, bias, trauma, systemic oppression etc. I think you should look up the term "colourblind racism". It is very bad. 

5) I do not think black people are better or worse than others. I'm saying we don't have to be the exact same to be equal. And I am asserting the fact that race is not irrelevant. 

6) Until the structural institutions that keep systemic racism alive are dismantled, we will not live in a post-racial society. 

 

[foreign fundie]

1 hour ago, Jinder Roles said:

Okay, a few things:

1)  I'm not American. 

2)  I understand that biologically there isn't really 'race'. Race is a social-construct. Race and racism is ingrained into powerful institutions. It is structural. It is a part of society. Many powerful institutions are founded on racism. And I'm sorry but because racism is systemic it does affect interpersonal relationships and behaviours. Nobody functions completely independent of society. 

3) You deciding race is 'outdated' is exercising a privilege that people of colour do not have. (I'm assuming you're not POC because you just don't seem to get it). I can't ignore the fact that I'm black because (of  a violent history, discrimination, collective memory, how society perceives me, colonialism and yes culture) it is a part of my identity. Race is not only informed by culture. 

4) It's a nice idea that race shouldn't matter at all but it does. Pretending it doesn't will not end discrimination, bias, trauma, systemic oppression etc. I think you should look up the term "colourblind racism". It is very bad. 

5) I do not think black people are better or worse than others. I'm saying we don't have to be the exact same to be equal. And I am asserting the fact that race is not irrelevant. 

6) Until the structural institutions that keep systemic racism alive are dismantled, we will not live in a post-racial society. 

 

It seems we are talking about different things. I was mainly speaking about how parents categorise their adopted children and how they are formed by their families' culture.

I do not deny the racism in society or it's effects on people's perceptions of others. I do not deny people get a lot of crap for their skin color. Or that society has a long way to go in ridding itself of this disease or that it affects us all in some way.

But I have a few questions. If, as you admit, the concept of race is  biologically outdated,  why hang on to it? What is helpful about it? Honest question. As there are certainly many things I don't get, all the time. I can imagine you say " because they define me by race and discriminate me for it". But if someone stops doing just that, why would you then blame them for ignoring reality if they let go of the concept of race and your skin color becomes irrelevant to them? Again, honest question.

I am a little worried I am getting into a hornets' nest now. I am certainly not intimite with all the sensitivities of the American context. Though I have read about them, I haven't lived them. 

But if it helps, my family lives in a highly racist society and is the only one of our 'shading' where we live. Our friends have various colors, but all different from ours. We get crap for it all the time. We have endured suspicion, exotification, prejudice, saviorism, lots of unwanted touching, some sexual harrasment. It sucks. But the privilege we have is that we can go back to our home country where our skin color is no issue. So you are right in assuming, I can't identify with the depth of what black people in America endure.

 

[Timetostoplurking]

Since Prince died this week, I have decided to be Purple for the rest of the month!!

[ksgranola1]

18 hours ago, 2manyKidzzz said:

That show is very touching. And i really like "Who Do You Think You Are". I love that show. It is so  interesting. I looked at my paternal grandmother's side and found a lot  of farmers way back in New York State. But with the help of TLC, these famous folks can go way back and find out such intersting  info. Love it. Reality TV at its finest. 

Love that show.

[quiverofdoubt]

@foreign fundie racism is a serious problem in the us. It's systematic and institutionalized. As others have said to be color blind or ignore the disparities in our country is a priveledge African Americans do not have. Including those raised in white homes. There is a huge achievement gap in schools, a racist judicial and police force, a vast difference in wealth, racial discrepancies in hiring practices etc etc. there are many many books written about it. Sadly in the us having darker skin is way more than just a small difference in genes. It will change how your child is percieved and treated, their opportunities in education and work, and their perspective on many things. A black man in the us for example needs to be aware of how they are perceived, especially by authorities at all times. The wrong body language, word, gesture, clothes or hairstyle etc could invite the wrong kind of police attention, or land them in jail or even shot. Many African Americans fear calling the police when they need help. Our jails are full of young black men, many of who did next to nothing to end there.  It's a sad state of affairs, but true. 

Growing up in a white family will not protect a black child from a majority of the racism they may experience at school, on the streets, in restaurants, at stores, in the work place or anywhere else. 

There are also other cultural things to consider. African Americans have a rich cultural history in our country, which is glossed over or not taught at all in schools. A white family raising African American kids would want to research a lot more of that history, the players, the music, the dance styles, food, all kinds of things. Being adopted doesn't wipe out that part of a persons identity, no matter the family culture they are growing up in. And as the kids hit Jr. High and high school they will be exposed to more modern black culture (much of which has its roots in early history, and much having to do with civil rights fighting). They need to decide for themselves how much of that culture to get involved with, some of that choice will be influenced by the kids they meet in school. That will be extremely varied depending on their school district, and if it's primarily white or black. 

Two of my aunts were adopted (many moons ago). White babies into white families. Both have an interest in their genetic heritage and researched and embraced pieces of their genetic history. One aunt is Irish, possibly 100% (the adoption records are sketchy. And she was born to a single teen mom, so not a lot to go on). She named her only son an Irish name in honor of her heritage. Adoption doesn't wipe out any chance of learning about your genetic culture and history. You can embrace your adopted family culture, your genetic families culture, your race and your nationality. 

[iweartanktops]

Great post, @quiverofdoubt. Also, @Jinder Roles, you made some great points. 

I've been reading this thread, and I want to contribute to the conversation, as I feel I have some interesting experience. I'm not feeling well and I have a terrible headache, so I'm going to do my best. I just want to warn you all, @foreign fundie, I may not be very eloquent.  

Foreign Fundie, a lot of this is in response to your question, "If, as you admit, the concept of race is  biologically outdated,  why hang on to it? What is helpful about it?" 

I'm African American. I was not adopted, so both of my parents are African American as well. I was raised in a fairly affluent, white demographic. My parents didn't talk about race a whole lot when myself and my siblings were growing up (I wish they had). I think in many ways, I identified as being white. All of my friends were white, there were only a handful of Black students in my high school, in our social circles, etc. The thing is, no matter how little we, as a family, talked about race issues, they were thrown in our faces quite a bit. We simply could not ignore racism and racial issues if we wanted to. Each of us, at different times, were called the "n" word in school, by the time we reached 3rd grade!

I get really frustrated when people say things like, "you'll always find racism if you look for it." People have actually said that here on FJ. Sure, I guess that's true, but if you're black, racism will find you, whether you want to see it or not. How many white people are pulled over in their own neighborhood and asked what they're doing there? My guess is, not many. When I'm out with my family, and people see us getting into luxury vehicles, they will stop us and ask the most ridiculous questions, because we must be drug dealers to afford these cars, right? Or the eleventy billion times I've been told that I'm not really black, since I don't "talk like black people." Ugh. . These comments and occurrences really start to pile up, and you begin to lose your patience. The fact is, perhaps some people see us as "just people with different colored skin," but many people see their own bias, stereotypes and some see pure hate. 

Regarding adoption, as QOD said, it doesn't matter who raised you, and I'll add how much money you have, etc. If you have brown skin, society sees a black person, and you will be treated as such. 

I'm kind of rambling, and I have countless examples of racism and discrimination that I've personally experienced, but I purposely used more subtle examples in this post.  

 

[Jinder Roles]

10 hours ago, foreign fundie said:

It seems we are talking about different things. I was mainly speaking about how parents categorise their adopted children and how they are formed by their families' culture.

I do not deny the racism in society or it's effects on people's perceptions of others. I do not deny people get a lot of crap for their skin color. Or that society has a long way to go in ridding itself of this disease or that it affects us all in some way.

But I have a few questions. If, as you admit, the concept of race is  biologically outdated,  why hang on to it? What is helpful about it? Honest question. As there are certainly many things I don't get, all the time. I can imagine you say " because they define me by race and discriminate me for it". But if someone stops doing just that, why would you then blame them for ignoring reality if they let go of the concept of race and your skin color becomes irrelevant to them? Again, honest question.   

I am a little worried I am getting into a hornets' nest now. I am certainly not intimite with all the sensitivities of the American context. Though I have read about them, I haven't lived them. 

But if it helps, my family lives in a highly racist society and is the only one of our 'shading' where we live. Our friends have various colors, but all different from ours. We get crap for it all the time. We have endured suspicion, exotification, prejudice, saviorism, lots of unwanted touching, some sexual harrasment. It sucks. But the privilege we have is that we can go back to our home country where our skin color is no issue. So you are right in assuming, I can't identify with the depth of what black people in America endure.

 

I've been thinking about your post for the past few hours while studying.

I understand what you're saying about how adoptive parents and their culture/ideals have an impact on their children. I'm not disputing that, but it does not form the entirety of an adoptive child's identity. Identity doesn't begin when babies are born. They're something called trans-generational memory. Certain experiences/consciousness are passed down. There's a reason why collective identity exists We're not purely individuals and collective will is a real thing. (There's actually a study that shows epigenetic tags on the children of Holocaust survivors. Basically it shows one can inherit the memory of trauma, and I think other things)

Two very important things:

1.  Skin colour and race are not the same thing.

2. Culture and race are not the same thing. 

These things overlap greatly and influence the other but they're not the same. I think you've been conflating these things. You can have various cultures that are classified as 'black, white, Asian etc. You can also have cultures that people of multiple races are a part of (I'm from a country where this is the case)

I think you're viewing race as a negative because of the violent history of racism and don't want racist stereotypes to negatively affect the way you interact with people. That's good. But by ridding race from your personal memory effectively try to minimialize and erase the history, identity, experiences and even cultures of others. Nobody is above race and trying to do so is not helpful. Colourblindness is not a realistic ideal. It also doesn't deal with the issue of structural systems working against people of certain races. 

Guess what? A race of people can exist without the negative connotations attached to that race. Maybe I should have said we don't live in a post-racialist society; meaning a society where there is no systemic racism, but there is still race.

Race isn't harmful but racism is.  ( racism is prejudice + structural power)

In response to your question, just because race isn't biological doesn't mean it is any less real. Race is sociological, psychological, generational and a matter of consciousness. I don't think we as human beings fully understand it yet. It's very complex. 

If tomorrow systemic racism ended (which it won't) you'd still have the history, psychological and cultural impact to wrestle with. My blackness wouldn't cease to matter just because discrimination stopped. And I don't view myself as black because people who discriminate against me view me as such. I'm black because my ancestors were. I'm proud of my heritage. Black people have done some great things and not just in response to adversity. It's a part of my consciousness (collective memory hello!). I'm black because I'm black. That sounds like a non-answer but I don't know  any other way  to describe it. 

Ok I'm going to say it again;  I am not American!!!   My experience has not been the experience of African-Americans (and their experiences have varied greatly!) The concept of race/blackness is not an American thought. And wherever you live, race and racism are realities because history/discrimination/violence/colonialism/collective consciousness/structural power etc.

 One more time everybody: We. Do. Not. Live. In. A. Postracialist. Society!!!!11!!11!!!111!!!!!

[patsymae]

"What matters is the culture you grow up in. That shapes your identity on a deep level. My adopted cousins are just like me apart from their color. I believe if I was adopted into a black American family as an infant, and they would raise me as their own, I would be just like them, apart from their color."

They very might might see you as their own; one would hope so. "Their own" doesn't mean that "I would be just like them, apart from their color." You wouldn't be "just like them," you would be your own unique self, and your race and ethnicity would be part of that unique self. IMO, to reference an earlier post, people who insist upon seeing an adopted child--any adopted child, but particularly one of a different race or ethnicity--as someone who will be "just like them" except for physical differences are the people who should not be adopting.

The U.S. gave up the idea of a "melting pot" a while back, as well as the notion that adopted children are "blank slates" who don't retain genetic identifies or connections but rather simply absorb the "culture" (in the broad as well as narrow sense) of their adoptive parents.

"Colorblindness" has actual become the fodder for jokes--think of Steven Colbert ("I don't see color"), movies like The Jerk, or Dave Chappelle's black KKK guy. The point being that given the realities that others have spoken about, professing the concept is seen by many as simply absurd. Which it is.

There are about eleventy billion articles, blog posts, Internet groups and forums in which people who were adopted transracially in the US, and their adoptive parents, talk about their experiences, issues and concerns. It's not like there's no information out there.

[patsymae]

On April 22, 2016 at 6:22 PM, anotherone said:

You know those triplets are going to hate those parents when they become teens.  They will see through all the crap that we see now.  I had a friend whose family adopted a black girl for their youngest.  She and the older sibs got along fine but even the older ones saw that the parents adopted the youngest as sort of a hippie experiment to prove that they were so liberal or whatever.  As a teen she hated the mom because of that attitude. 

I also had a friend that considered adopting (not of any specific race) but she was very well educated and very accomplished in music and said how she wished to give these gifts to the child and how appreciative the child would be.  I said, you can't guarantee that, what if the kid wanted to work on sports cars or be a rock star rather than a doctor/lawyer/classical musician.  Oh no no! that kid would love everything I would give and be thankful they were adopted.  I tried to tell her that no teen will appreciate their parents (until much older), that you have to give out of love not out of wanting some kind of return.  She could have had biological children but somehow thought of adopted kids as different for some reason, they somehow would look up to her more because she "saved" them.

Love your post and if I went on about how much it would send us into another thread. So I'll just concentrate on "those kids are going to hate..." Along with the rest of the disgusting crap, can you imagine hearing from Day 1 that you were left as an embryo in a jar (figure that's how they frame it), doomed not to be allowed to live because no one else wanted black "children," and nobly took it on, and suffered through all of the discomforts of being pregnant with triplets---and gave you life! How grateful you should be?

Yup, if they manage to emerge with any intact brain cells they are going to hate these people--which IMO would be about the healthiest outcome.

[foreign fundie]

Thank you all for your answers. It is very intetesting to read how you experience racism and how it influences your identity. 

In my experience ethnicity and culture are two seperate things informing people's identity, and they usually come as a package. However, when a child is adopted as a small baby, these seperate and a baby with ethnicity A acquires culture B. As people generally bond over shared experiences, a shared world view and shared values, the child in this example will for the most part feel part of culture B, even though an interest and longing for culture A may surface later.

People from ethnicity A growing up with their own parents in culture B (the immigrant experience) will become a mix of culture A and B, which over the generations will either turn into B or form new culture C. 

Now if I understand you all correctly, African American culture (in all its variations) is a C culture. However, African American identity it is not only formed by ethnicity and (internal)cultural values, but (it seems to a very large extend) by how the culture B perceives and treats people from this culture. 

When it comes to adoption of African American children, you agree with me that they will initially inherit the worldview and cultural values from their white parents (like the Ugandan child in Sweden) BUT that racist society will not allow them to grow up as culturaly B, but his experiences of discrimination will make it inevitable that he will acquire a C identity, Which is informed to a large degree by being viewed by B culture as a dispised minority. (And that is what you call race?)

Am I still on track?

Then there is this collective memory thing. Now as far as I can see this relates to trauma responses but is not ethnically specific. And there is temperament. Some ethnicities may be more prone to producing extraverts than others, but again extraverts exist in all cultures. So it is important in adoption in general, but not specifically for interracial adoption.

So it seems that the degree to which a person from ethnicity A can acquire culture B, even when adopted at a young age is for a large part dependent on the tolerance culture B has of ethnicity A. 

My question is, apart from the ethnic element, and the way white Americans view African Americans, what in your opinion forms African American culture? Not talking about externals like food or music, but world view and values. How does it differ from 'white culture' realising there are varieties of both?

[punkiepie]

18 hours ago, foreign fundie said:

This is absolutely fascinating. So assuming many people think like you, Americans really do hold that people are different 'races'. I thought that was an outdated concept since we are incredibly similar genetically and can all cross-breed so to speak. 

But that explains the confusion. For me wheather a person is black, yellow, white or brown, is really only a matter of color, or body type if you will. A minimal difference in genetics that is morally and socially speaking completely neutral. It does not determine your word view, your intelligence, your morals, your capacities or anything else important. 

What matters is the culture you grow up in. That shapes your identity on a deep level. My adopted cousins are just like me apart from their color. I believe if I was adopted into a black American family as an infant, and they would raise me as their own, I would be just like them, apart from their color.

But as long as you continue to see a black person as a different type of human (better or worse), yes, you will never have a post-racial society.

I connect with people on the basis of shared values, not on the basis of color. Where I live, no one has my color, so I'd be pretty lonely if I would. 

Anyway, very enlightening to follow this conversation.

 

It's not that our "race" makes us different. It's that because of our race, persons of color have had many years of enduring different cultural, legal, prejudicial, and financial experiences. Being a white American doesn't make me any more special or any more better than anyone else in the world.  But being white, in America, means I have no idea what it's like to suffer because of my skin color, what's it's like to know that in my country, my ancestors were considered the property of someone else- a white someone else.  I'm in my early 30's- not super young, but not really old.  And my mom still has a vivid recollection of the first day black kids where allowed in her school, when the signs over the water fountains, reading "coloreds only," was removed.  It would be disingenuous to say that my life and my cultural experiences are the same as my black friends, who grew up in the same neighborhood as me.  I've never had a conversation with my daughter about not wearing a hoodie out to the park.  

[patsymae]

21 hours ago, PennySycamore said:

The chef Marcus Samuelsson and his sister were born in Ethiopia but adopted when they were a few years old by a Swedish couple and raised in Sweden.  The children's mother had died although their dad was still living.  Marcus embraces both his birth heritage and his Swedish upbringing.  He is married to an Ethiopian woman and they reside in Harlem.

Marcus Samuelsson

I notice that Marcus is like my granddaughter.  They've retained part of their birth name as part of their adopted name.  Btw, we don't refer to this granddaughter as our adopted granddaughter.  She's just our granddaughter.

From what Ive read his name was Kassahun Tsegie, and he became Marcus Smuelsson when he was adopted by the Swedish couple. What am I missing about his retention of part of his birth name?

[patsymae]

"Am I still on track?"

 

No, you are so far off the track that if you were a train you would be plunging off the Rockies into oblivion.

We get it--you are European, you are "colorblind," you are the amazing kind of person who doesn't understand why the rest of us keep harping on this "race" (which you define as biology only) except that maybe we are just the dumb Americans who haven't figured it out yet.  This was a really good forum discussion in which it was important to bring up issues of race, ethnicity and more in relation to adoption. And some people tried to also educate you. But the continuous disingenuous "so sorry I just don't understand you Americans who must have problems that we enlightened Swedes just can't figure out" has worn thin. Give it a rest.

I would, though, love to continue discussion about some of the issues that have been brought up here with some of the other posters.

[Mercer]

7 minutes ago, patsymae said:

From what Ive read his name was Kassahun Tsegie, and he became Marcus Smuelsson when he was adopted by the Swedish couple. What am I missing about his retention of part of his birth name?

He appears to have retained the middle name or nickname Joar. (I can't tell which it is because the position of it in his original name doesn't follow what I'm familiar with as a standard Ethiopian naming pattern.)

[Drala]

43 minutes ago, foreign fundie said:

My question is, apart from the ethnic element, and the way white Americans view African Americans, what in your opinion forms African American culture? Not talking about externals like food or music, but world view and values. How does it differ from 'white culture' realising there are varieties of both?

History is enormously important.  The history of slavery is largely glossed over in mainstream curricula.  The history of Jim Crow, of black migration, of red lining property, of integration and civil rights...African Americans have a history like no other immigrant group.  Even to use the word immigrant belies the truth of the middle passage or forced importation of labor.

 

[Jinder Roles]

 @foreign fundie You are so far off it's not even funny anymore. I feel like all the things various posters have said to you are just going over your head, maybe purposefully, maybe not. 

One more time cause I'm genuinely concerned:

Culture and race are not the same thing. Stop conflating the two. Culture does not determine race. Also, upbringing does not determine race. 

People can be a race and be a part of different cultures. You realize that black people can be a part of more than one culture, right? And people of various races can also be a part of one culture. Culture is not necessarily racial.  And It's not just 'African-American' culture. Please stop framing issues of race as an American thing. You are implicated in this wherever you live.

Being black is not just about being discriminated against. Yes, it is a very important part of our history and our resilience/trauma/memory are parts of our identity. That is not all we are. 

You need to Google:

1. collective memory (the paragraph about temperament and ethnical specificity doesn't make sense to me.)

2. collective identity

3.systemic racism

4. colorblind racism (x eleventy11!!!!111!!!)

I don't know what else to say. 

[SilverBeach]

6 hours ago, quiverofdoubt said:

@foreign fundie racism is a serious problem in the us. You can embrace your adopted family culture, your genetic families culture, your race and your nationality. 

This is exactly what Jen and Bill Klein (The Little Couple) are aiming for with Will (adopted from China) and Zoey (adopted from India). I admire them so much for this. Despite a very privileged "white" upbringing, it is important to them that their children know their origin.

I raised my Black child in a predominantly White community. However, she was exposed to plenty of "Black" culture because of our family. I see her as multiculturally intelligent, the same way I see myself. 

I do not care for the term African American. Blacks in America are an admixture of many races and ethnicities. Plus, if the term is used consistently, African Americans would mean Africans who obtained American citizenship, and that could include white South Africans, Egyptians, and all other persons from the African continent. I was born here, and I am a plain old American who happens to be Black.

Because of the abysmal state of race relations in the US, all parents of Black males must teach police encounter survival skills. These skill are necessary at all socioeconomic levels, urban and suburban. I have found that Whites sometimes do not understand why upper middle class parents would be concerned about this, but it's just reality. The stories I could tell....

 

 

 

 

 

 

[AliceInFundyland]

22 minutes ago, patsymae said:

"Am I still on track?"

 

No, you are so far off the track that if you were a train you would be plunging off the Rockies into oblivion.

We get it--you are European, you are "colorblind," you are the amazing kind of person who doesn't understand why the rest of us keep harping on this "race" (which you define as biology only) except that maybe we are just the dumb Americans who haven't figured it out yet.  This was a really good forum discussion in which it was important to bring up issues of race, ethnicity and more in relation to adoption. And some people tried to also educate you. But the continuous disingenuous "so sorry I just don't understand you Americans who must have problems that we enlightened Swedes just can't figure out" has worn thin. Give it a rest.

I would, though, love to continue discussion about some of the issues that have been brought up here with some of the other posters.

I think this harsh. FF isn't presenting herself in a particularly condescending/judgy way. It's idealistic. She's being polite. I also sense a bit of language barrier happening in some of our lengthy explanation. That often happens in these types of chats. 

[quiverofdoubt]

1 minute ago, SilverBeach said:

This is exactly what Jen and Bill Klein (The Little Couple) are aiming for with Will (adopted from China) and Zoey (adopted from India). I admire them so much for this. Despite a very privileged "white" upbringing, it is important to them that their children know their origin.

I raised my Black child in a predominantly White community. However, she was exposed to plenty of "Black" culture because of our family. I see her as multiculturally intelligent, the same way I see myself. 

I do not care for the term African American. Blacks in America are an admixture of many races and ethnicities. Plus, if the term is used consistently, African Americans would mean Africans who obtained American citizenship, and that could include white South Africans, Egyptians, and all other persons from the African continent. I was born here, and I am a plain old American who happens to be Black.

Because of the abysmal state of race relations in the US, all parents of Black males must teach police encounter survival skills. These skill are necessary at all socioeconomic levels, urban and suburban. I have found that Whites sometimes do not understand why upper middle class parents would be concerned about this, but it's just reality. The stories I could tell....

 

 

 

 

 

 

I apologize for an offensive term. As a white person I can often be awkward in my terminologies. I am uncomfortable using the term black, I know many prefer the term, but as a white person saying "blacks" sounds offensive to me too.  I was also speaking to a European with no first hand US experience so I wanted to be clear I was speaking about poc in the states, who will have a different experience entirely then a poc in Sweden. 

Obviously I have no first hand experiences as a poc either, but I can be culturally sensitive and aware, and educated enough to know that your kids run in with police will be very different from my kids. 

I had a mentor in hs who said she was so sick of being pulled over and harassed in our mostly white middle class town (she was not white) that she took to wearing her Stanford sweatshirt and leaving medical textbooks in her back seat. She still got the crappy seats in restaurants and followed in stores. Both her and her husband were doctors. 

[PennySycamore]

@Mercer, thanks for posting that explanation of Marcus Samuelsson's  name.  My granddaughter hasn't exactly retained part of her birth name, but the name assigned to her when she was brought to the orphanage.  She'd been abandoned at birth.