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Lori Alexander learning less than ever- Part 7


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Oh, if I were a conspiracy theorist, I could have great fun with the "wishing God would kill him" post, Ken's going MIA and Lori suddenly developing an overnight passion for gardening ...

 

My oh my oh my ... 

:GPn0zNK:

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1 hour ago, polecat said:

Oh, if I were a conspiracy theorist, I could have great fun with the "wishing God would kill him" post, Ken's going MIA and Lori suddenly developing an overnight passion for gardening ...

 

My oh my oh my ... 

:GPn0zNK:

Puts a whole new slant on yesterday's FB post about victory gardens...

:kitty-shifty:

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@salsa @usmcmom   

Sorry...I don't know how to quote you here (since the thread changed), but this will answer your question.

http://lorialexander.blogspot.com/2012/03/breaking-their-will.html

Quote

We never had to get to this point.  The first time our children had a temper tantrum or refused to obey us, around 18 months, Ken and I would take turns telling them to pick up the toys {or whatever they were refusing to do} and then give them a swat on their bottom if they wouldn't do it.  With all four of our children, it took almost four long, difficult hours.

Finally, they submitted, picked up their toys, and we cuddled with them.  

She continues in comments:

Quote

One of them wouldn't pick up their raisans. We would tell her to pick them up, she would say "no", and we would spank her. She would cry for awhile. After awhile, we would again tell her to pick up her raisans. She refused. We spanked her again. We would make her stay where she was until she finally picked up her raisans. Ken and I would take turns because it was very tiring but oh, so worth it. 

Here references to her weapon of choice being a leather strap can be found in countless posts on her blog.  Here are some of them:

http://lorialexander.blogspot.com/2012/02/goal-in-disciplining-children.html

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She remembers several times she got spanked and just remembers me using my leather strap

From the comments of this post:

http://lorialexander.blogspot.com/2014/01/parenting-exhausting-way.html

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A spanking will work if it is hard enough. We used a small leather strap on their behind and it hurt! 

http://lorialexander.blogspot.com/2011/07/spanking-children.html

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We used a special little strap and spanked hard enough so it would hurt.  Pain is a great motivator and teacher.

I could go on, but you get the point.  

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What a hideous woman.  I hope she is forsaken by her children and lives a long, lonely life.

My daughter helps me pick up her toys, then immediately dumps them on the floor again.  Because she's two.  I don't torture her for it.

Related to hoping your husband dies, if you are unhappy in your marriage and are forbidden to get divorced, praying God might knock off your spouse makes sense.  You're not precisely wishing them dead, you're letting God know that if that is his will you would willingly submit to widowhood.  Until then, keep a stiff upper lip and a bottle of lube on hand for those occasional moments when you must do your marital duty. 

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I remember when my babies were little.  We cleaned (and danced) to this song:

It worked very well, and we were all happy.  

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8 minutes ago, Koala said:

I remember when my babies were little.  We cleaned (and danced) to this song:

It worked very well, and we were all happy.  

Oh, we loved Laurie Berkner around here. 

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We loved her too.  When Lori said that all Cassi remembers is her mom using her leather strap on her, and how her kids were afraid of her,  I cringed.

Forming happy memories is a very important part of mothering to me.  My kids still remember our dance parties to Laurie Berkner music, sandwiches cut into funny shapes, and running through the sprinklers in our backyard.  Silly things that didn't cost anything, but we had so much fun.  They grew up to be awesome kids too.  I am so proud of them.  Long live Victor Vito and Freddie Vasco :my_heart:

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As much as I love to snark on Lori and what she posts from others, I have to admit that at times I can relate to some of it. There was a time in my marriage when I wished my husband would die--because I thought it would be easier than putting a genuine effort into turning things around and because I was experiencing serious depression and didn't know how to cope. It was a sign of serious trouble in me and in our marriage. With a lot of work, we've turned things around dramatically--but I won't snark on someone for thinking something negative when she is dealing with difficult life circumstances.

What bothers me so much about everything Lori posts isn't so much the content as it is the extremity and the tone. 

I am not opposed to spanking--but I see a difference between spanking to teach a lesson and spanking to cause pain and break the will. I see a difference between spanking a defiant preschooler who is putting herself in danger and flicking the cheek of a baby who is nursing and probably has sore gums from teething. Being sexually available if your husband has a higher drive than you do isn't a bad thing--but talking about ten minutes and moving around without ever talking about the mutuality of sexual pleasure sends a damaging lesson to both men and women who think that sex is just about the man.

Her tone is what bothers me the most. She sounds practically giddy when she talks about punishing her kids, and she sounds joyless even when she is talking about joy. Her disregard of how most people view things makes me question her wisdom. It isn't that I think she should suppress what she sees as truth, but I do think there are ways to express those things that at least show a understanding of the people she says she's trying to reach. If your attitude and tone are unloving and high-and-mighty, you're never going to reach the people most in need of your message. Of course, given what Lori's message is that's good in this case--but it certainly shows a lack of wisdom, love, and grace on her part.

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The thing about praying for the husband to die sounded a lot more like he should die if he doesn't give her what she wants, than profound depression. And the fact that Lori quoted it in a blog post like it's no big deal, is disturbing at best. 

You're right, @molecule. Lori does sound giddy when talking about inflicting pain on her children. I don't know how one can even consider purposely hurting an infant.* Lori is evil. 

*unless their dealing with postpartum depression or psychosis 

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15 minutes ago, molecule said:

Her tone is what bothers me the most. She sounds practically giddy when she talks about punishing her kids,

This.

She gets a kick out of talking about spanking, and probably doing it too. 

When she wrote about talking to that father at the park about how he disciplines his kid, and practically ordering him to spank his kid, it was very disturbing.

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Here's an honest question, please don't jump on me. I raised my kids while mentored by people spouting this stuff. Though I didn't have the heart to apply their teachings to such an extreme, I do remember wondering what an alternative would be to spanking the defiant kid who throws down the raisins and refuses to pick them up.

I think my solution would have been something like a cheerful, "Okay, no more raisins today, then!" But I don't even know if that was the right thing to do. Because a two-year-old probably isn't going to connect throwing the raisins on the floor with not being able to have raisins until tomorrow. But if you just "break down" and pick up the raisins for the child, what then? What lesson are they learning? Aren't you teaching them that they can do whatever they want, and you'll just cover for them?

I knew a couple families with teens who terrorized their parents. Or maybe I should say I knew the parents. These were frightening situations. In retrospect, maybe untreated mental illness was involved.

My mom was a rage-aholic and the perfect martyr, rolled into one. I didn't want to follow her lead. These people offered structure and what looked like safety. You follow a formula and you won't ever spank a child in anger, or go overboard. (At least, following their formula, I didn't spank in anger. Sometimes after I'd calmed down and went to my waiting child, I didn't spank at all, just sat down and talked things over.)

They fill you with this fear that if you don't deal with disobedience, you'll raise spoiled, self-centered brats.

I wish I'd stumbled into a nest of gentle-parenting mentors instead of these Ezzos- and Pearls-guided vipers, early on.

 But honestly, how would you handle the raisin flinging situation, for example?

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I would have taken them away and said, "We keep the raisins on the table. No more raisins today because you threw them on the floor." After a few days of this, and depending on the kids age, I would ask the kid if they remembered  where raisins belonged and what would happen if they were thrown on the floor. Or, if the kid just didn't seem to like raisins (one of mine didn't), I would serve something else as a snack.

9 minutes ago, kpmom said:

When she wrote about talking to that father at the park about how he disciplines his kid, and practically ordering him to spank his kid, it was very disturbing.

Does she get a free toaster when she recruits another spanker?

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What @molecule. Said. 

Another idea is, if there's something they want to do next, like play cars, for example, give them an expectation before they can play cars. "Buddy, you may play race cars as soon as you pick up the raisins you threw. Raisins belong on the table." 

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I'm kind of winging it, but if my kid throws food she usually wants to eat, just not what I'm giving her.  I tell her no and take her out of her chair, she screams because that was not the desired outcome, I put her back in and offer her her food again.  Usually we do this once or twice and she decides dinner is not such a bad alternative to cookies.

We're starting time outs, but I'm a little hesitant because she doesn't yet understand when told to stay somewhere. People say to start doing time outs by bear hugging the kid at an even younger age, but that feels wrong to me.  Hugs should be good things!

I feel like teaching her to pick up is more something that should be done cooperatively at this age (barely 2).  When she understands words better I can tell her since she threw her toys everywhere she has to pick them up. 

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30 minutes ago, molecule said:

As much as I love to snark on Lori and what she posts from others, I have to admit that at times I can relate to some of it. There was a time in my marriage when I wished my husband would die--because I thought it would be easier than putting a genuine effort into turning things around and because I was experiencing serious depression and didn't know how to cope. It was a sign of serious trouble in me and in our marriage. With a lot of work, we've turned things around dramatically--but I won't snark on someone for thinking something negative when she is dealing with difficult life circumstances.

respectfully snipped

 

It wasn't so much that the woman (it wasn't Lori who said it, I should add) said that she wanted God to kill or change her husband, although I will admit that that took me aback. It was that Lori published it without so much as blinking an eye or even acknowledging it. I think were a woman to come to me saying that she was praying or wishing that her husband would die, that would be a HUGE red flag that something was terribly wrong. I certainly wouldn't be publishing it on a blog and pointing to it as an example of a woman whose heart was in the right place, as Lori did yesterday. 

I'm glad you're in a better place emotionally and with your marriage. *hugs*

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20 minutes ago, Petrel said:

I'm kind of winging it, but if my kid throws food she usually wants to eat, just not what I'm giving her.  I tell her no and take her out of her chair, she screams because that was not the desired outcome, I put her back in and offer her her food again.  Usually we do this once or twice and she decides dinner is not such a bad alternative to cookies.

We're starting time outs, but I'm a little hesitant because she doesn't yet understand when told to stay somewhere. People say to start doing time outs by bear hugging the kid at an even younger age, but that feels wrong to me.  Hugs should be good things!

I feel like teaching her to pick up is more something that should be done cooperatively at this age (barely 2).  When she understands words better I can tell her since she threw her toys everywhere she has to pick them up. 

I wouldn't be bear-hugging as a time out, either. That feels wrong to me, too. 

We used non-punitive time-outs, for the most part, to help ours calm down or just to give them breathers. Heck, I still use that kind of time-out for myself sometimes. :) I tended to get pretty creative when it came to consequences, though, just because I wanted to make sure the punishment fit the crime (so to speak). But at two, they're not really doing too many deliberately bad things. They're still so little and really want to please.

https://www.positivediscipline.com/articles/positive-time-out

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@Koala, thanks for those links. I knew your ninja search skills would come through.

@refugee Here is something that worked for me in situations like the raisins.  I'd kneel behind the child with my hand over his and just move his arm with mine as we "picked up" the raisins. I would grasp his hand and do the best I could to make sure he was doing the picking up; but even if he wasn't, he was at least doing the work of picking them up.  I did this a few times with my kids and wondered if it was a little odd. But then I saw an acquaintance of mine do it and she has a degree in early childhood development and I considered her a really good mom.  So I figured if she did it, it must be a good thing.:my_confused:  Heh.  I think it works because the child is not getting out of picking up the items, there is no punishment involved and it all happens rather quickly so you can get on with your day. 

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It was that Lori published it without so much as blinking an eye or even acknowledging it.  

Right. The fact that Lori didn't say anything about the red flags bothered me a great deal. She should not be mentoring any other women at all.

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It's been a while since mine were little, but here are some possible solutions to the whole raisin debacle:

- Realize that the child isn't even 2 yet, and redirection is your friend.  An 18 month old who doesn't pick up their raisins, isn't destined to become a 16 year old who gets expelled from school and breaks curfew.  We are talking about a person who has had less than 2 years on earth.  As hard as it can be to remember that, it definitely helps put things in perspective.

- Make a game of it.  We used the clean it up song I linked, and had races to see who could gather the most items the fastest.  As they got older I would say, "okay, let's see who can pick up 10 toys!"  Now we are barreling towards the teenage years and they clean their rooms, do laundry, and even volunteer to help around the house.  Model the values you want them to have.  Don't turn it into a battle-if you do, they will feel obligated to fight you on it.

 

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47 minutes ago, Petrel said:

I'm kind of winging it, but if my kid throws food she usually wants to eat, just not what I'm giving her.  I tell her no and take her out of her chair, she screams because that was not the desired outcome, I put her back in and offer her her food again.  Usually we do this once or twice and she decides dinner is not such a bad alternative to cookies.

We're starting time outs, but I'm a little hesitant because she doesn't yet understand when told to stay somewhere. People say to start doing time outs by bear hugging the kid at an even younger age, but that feels wrong to me.  Hugs should be good things!

I feel like teaching her to pick up is more something that should be done cooperatively at this age (barely 2).  When she understands words better I can tell her since she threw her toys everywhere she has to pick them up. 

So true! I did use physical restraint for a time, with one of ours (I suspect the kid is on the autism spectrum, though never officially diagnosed, and now so high-functioning that the therapist says if autism is involved, the kid is one of the highest functioning they've ever seen but they kind of doubt it's autism -- and all I can say to that is, the therapist didn't know the kid at younger ages). The kid would throw these frightening tantrums, totally out of control. I read a parenting book (not faith-based) that suggested physical restraint... I was desperate enough to try it. I would just hold the kid, lying on the floor together, repeating in a calm voice that as long as the kid was out of control, I'd maintain control *for* the kid... and then I'd let go as soon as the kid stopped kicking and screaming, and either let them pull away, or hug (a breakable hug, if that makes sense) for as long as they needed it.

It worked much better than any other discipline I tried, and eventually the kid learned to use words.

The kid has told me since that they hated being controlled, and yet hated the feeling of being out of control. Maybe it was the best solution? They thought maybe being isolated in their room might have been better, alone and unstimulated until they could calm down, but couldn't rule out throwing stuff and breaking stuff -- which to my mind made the "holding" a better option.

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@refugee there is no perfect formula. Your solution is fine and picking up the raisins  yourself won't cause him to be a delinquent. I don't think that really young kids connect the spankings with their actions either.With my kids the younger they were the time outs were to calm them down. For older preschool aged kids it would be to calm them down and as a consequence. However, my son is giant and if he were having a tantrum it was nearly impossible to carry him off to a time out. I would always give him a firm "no, that is not okay" type talk. He may shout no but still do what was asked. 

           In my expierience toddlers are hard to reason with so like it's been said redirecting helps and what @iweartanktops says. Sometimes you have to let them have a fit and get over it too. 

       I think what is important to remember that it's a marathon not a sprint. Consistency is super important, and I don't think you need to go overboard as long as you don't let bad behavior go. When my kids seem suddenly to act out I have to see if I have been consistent with them. My 14 yo has been mouthy lately, I realized I have been letting it go for a while because I don't want to deal with it. I don't need to ground her for months (yet) but I need to address it firmly now. I will tell her next time she starts, she gets one chance to get a hold of herself, If it continues I will take her phone for the rest of that day. I may have to do this every day for a week or so until it sticks. 

          

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I have had (and still have) some raisin-non-picker-uppers. The first kid I used all sorts of strategies and wiles to get him to do what I wanted. For the second kid I didn't have as much time and started using the strategy I use now for all three, plus any other kids in my orbit that I watch:

I'd leave the raisins laying there. As long as it's not something horrific, or a body fluid, or some safety hazard I don't do anything. I ask the kid to pick them up. They say no. I shrug and say "Okay then." But then the next time they want something like some more juice, or for me to get this or that for them? "Sure, go pick up those raisins and I'm on it." It almost always works (18 months old would be too young for this, but they are easier to motivate in other ways). If the kid still doesn't want to pick up the raisins? Hell, I'm patient, but I hope they are willing to be patient for that juice they wanted. One or two rounds of this and the kid usually picks up the offending item. It might be in a huff, but as I learned at my old social work job it doesn't (usually) matter the attitude that accompanies the action as long as they do the action. 

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I enjoy seeing all these parenting ideas.  Of course, my kids are grown and gone so I can't implement them (until grandkids, maybe?) but I love reading about parenting.

What I notice in all these ideas is that we all seem to agree there is no one-size-fits-all method for children. One worked for my son didn't work for my daughter so we have to be willing (as we all appear to be) to adjust our approach, sometimes day to day.  Lori, in her black and white thinking, clearly believes all children should be disciplined the same way and that way is spanking...no matter the age, no matter the infraction, no matter the child's personality or possible diagnosis. 

When our kids were teens, it seems the popular approach to back talk and rude attitudes was to simply overlook it.  I really struggled with that because it seemed like it was telling the teen "Hey, it's okay for you to treat me like dirt."  But to engage in a lengthy argument wasn't the answer either.  I think I just said "I won't allow you to speak to me that way," and left the room.  I don't know...the teen years are like the newborn weeks - a big blur of "What the heck have I got myself into???" I always felt uncertain about my parenting in the teen years because I felt I could never find that perfect balance. 

Lori recently talked about continuing to argue with one of her teenagers and she said she regrets it because you are suppose to repay evil with good. I never liked the way she equated common teenaged behavior with "evil."  Funny, she's never once said she regretted beating her kids with that darn leather strap. 

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