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Duggars by the Dozen- General Discussion Part 18


samurai_sarah

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It's too bad that the Duggars and other fundies can't have the year off like Amish rumspringa, where they can go out and see what the rest of the world is like and then make up their minds if they will follow the family's traditional ways. 

 

Now THAT would make a fun, entertaining TLC show!

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Hi! New user here (and guilty of taking one of Ben's rapper names for a username LOL).

I was reading the thread about Tori Bates possibly courting, and I went to look through the fanpage that posted a picture of Carlin and a fan. She took several photos with different Duggars, and mentioned who was at the graduation party.

https://www.instagram.com/p/BE11LC8keh0/

 https://www.instagram.com/p/BE1qd4MEekv/  

(I didn't embed these so you can easily click the links and read the comments she wrote about which Duggars were in a tow)

She said everyone but Jill..does that include Josh? The poster said she didn't know for sure. And has Jill not moved back home? What do you think? Maybe the announcement really is Jinger courting. 

Sorry I have such a slobby first post! Happens to the best of us.

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24 minutes ago, benye said:

Hi! New user here (and guilty of taking one of Ben's rapper names for a username LOL).

I was reading the thread about Tori Bates possibly courting, and I went to look through the fanpage that posted a picture of Carlin and a fan. She took several photos with different Duggars, and mentioned who was at the graduation party.

https://www.instagram.com/p/BE11LC8keh0/

 https://www.instagram.com/p/BE1qd4MEekv/  

(I didn't embed these so you can easily click the links and read the comments she wrote about which Duggars were in a tow)

She said everyone but Jill..does that include Josh? The poster said she didn't know for sure. And has Jill not moved back home? What do you think? Maybe the announcement really is Jinger courting. 

Sorry I have such a slobby first post! Happens to the best of us.

Welcome! Benye was my idea, glad you liked it. I got my user name from a pecan thief thread.

 

 

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9 hours ago, Ungodly Grandma said:

I think you are giving JB and DQ too much credit. I think they would never have voluntarily stepped back from their "ministry." I think they were told step back or no show. 

I don't think they are devastated. I doubt they are even very embarrassed.  The evil liberal media broke a story that should have been buried. That's the problem. Josh was just a little curious. Oh, and then the devil built a fortress in Josh's heart, which I guess is something they believe happens.

But dream on!

Agree they wouldn't have voluntarily stepped back.  I believe that would be the last thing that JB "Dry Hump" Duggar would want, apart from losing the show.  He, IMO, needs to be seen.  Not so sure about Michelle, though.  And I'm sure they blame Josh, at a minimum, for putting himself in a position where he could get caught and cost the family some of their reputation and $$s.

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http://19kidsandloving.tumblr.com/page/3

 

Scroll down to find a picture of JD.  He looks positively skinny.  I know he has talked about being on a diet recently, and it looks like he has had success.  I suspect that he is looking for a courtship opportunity and decided to drop a few pounds.  He is still no looker, but at least he is a close as we will find to a Duggar that knows how to do a honest day's work, and yes,  that might be a stretch, but it is what it is

 

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4 hours ago, benye said:

Hi! New user here (and guilty of taking one of Ben's rapper names for a username LOL).

I was reading the thread about Tori Bates possibly courting, and I went to look through the fanpage that posted a picture of Carlin and a fan. She took several photos with different Duggars, and mentioned who was at the graduation party.

https://www.instagram.com/p/BE11LC8keh0/

 https://www.instagram.com/p/BE1qd4MEekv/  

(I didn't embed these so you can easily click the links and read the comments she wrote about which Duggars were in a tow)

She said everyone but Jill..does that include Josh? The poster said she didn't know for sure. And has Jill not moved back home? What do you think? Maybe the announcement really is Jinger courting. 

Sorry I have such a slobby first post! Happens to the best of us.

I can't get over how grown up Jason is looking in the 2nd picture!

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7 hours ago, Dandruff said:

Agree they wouldn't have voluntarily stepped back.  I believe that would be the last thing that JB "Dry Hump" Duggar would want, apart from losing the show.  He, IMO, needs to be seen.  Not so sure about Michelle, though.  And I'm sure they blame Josh, at a minimum, for putting himself in a position where he could get caught and cost the family some of their reputation and $$s.

Oh, I think that too--I was just speculating.  I try very hard not to believe that they are as awful as they seem and try these various scenarios out in my head (when I can't sleep) to come up with a way that they're just a tad bit normal.

However, if they haven't voluntarily stepped back, then WTF is wrong with TLC for giving us these garbage recap episodes and continuing to fund their brand? How is TLC making money when the advertising is just other TLC shows?  I really can't reconcile who is more at fault for Counting on more crap being on the air: the Duggars for inventing this brand or TLC for promoting it.  We know JB and DQ are tone deaf when it comes to any criticism because Jebus loves them more, but what kind of delusion pill is TLC downing?

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4 hours ago, Purrl said:

@calimojo I was just coming to post about JD's pic. I wonder if he's getting into better shape to attract a girl?? :content:

And he's wearing ZOMG blue jeans, and not the Godly Khakis?

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12 hours ago, MoonFace said:

It's too bad that the Duggars and other fundies can't have the year off like Amish rumspringa, where they can go out and see what the rest of the world is like and then make up their minds if they will follow the family's traditional ways. 

 

Now THAT would make a fun, entertaining TLC show!

 

JB would never do that - he's too much of a control freak to give his children any freedom. :(

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On 4/8/2016 at 0:49 AM, Eatingintheprayercloset said:

Okay, I wonder why they always plaster their love on the internet? Why doesn't Jana just tell Michelle she loves her in person? I think Jana and other girls read articles about their family and consequently look at comments, which are 95% negative. Maybe they feel defensive when critics say Michelle is a horrible mother, so they post their public displays of love to show the public their mom is the best.

For the longest time on the show, in its early days, Jana was Michelle's only real defender. Often, when the younger kids were asked what they loved about Michelle, they would give blank looks for say things like, "She lets us spend the night with the Bates family!" No one could get any Duggarling to say something nice on their own about Michelle except for Jana, who openly and consistently insisted that Michelle does raise her own children, and not the sister-moms as everyone assumes.

It wasn't until the last couple of years or so that TLC producers would script activities and letters where the Duggar children would "show" their love for their mother, such as Jessa having coffee with Michelle during her engagement to Ben, the letters that were written and read aloud about loving Michelle (even if they were sometimes written to someone else!*), and the boys each having one-on-one time with Michelle.

*Jessa read a letter to Jill telling Jill what she meant to her as a sister shortly before Jill married Derick. In it, Jessa reads aloud that Jill is "loving, like our mother."

 

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5 hours ago, Rescinded and Mended said:

For the longest time on the show, in its early days, Jana was Michelle's only real defender. Often, when the younger kids were asked what they loved about Michelle, they would give blank looks for say things like, "She lets us spend the night with the Bates family!" No one could get any Duggarling to say something nice on their own about Michelle except for Jana, who openly and consistently insisted that Michelle does raise her own children, and not the sister-moms as everyone assumes.

It wasn't until the last couple of years or so that TLC producers would script activities and letters where the Duggar children would "show" their love for their mother, such as Jessa having coffee with Michelle during her engagement to Ben, the letters that were written and read aloud about loving Michelle (even if they were sometimes written to someone else!*), and the boys each having one-on-one time with Michelle.

*Jessa read a letter to Jill telling Jill what she meant to her as a sister shortly before Jill married Derick. In it, Jessa reads aloud that Jill is "loving, like our mother."

 

Interesting. I never followed the show and couldn't have told you the difference between Jana and Jessa until a year ago. But given that most people agree that Jana is the real person raising the kids and minding the house, why would she be insisting otherwise?

Is she telling the truth as she sees it?  Is she defending her mom out of loyalty even if it means disguising how great a responsibility she herself has taken? Does she feel she has to lie a little to protect the mother she seems to adore?  Or is she the only one in the position to understand and appreciate Michelle's real contribution?  Is she, in fact, better informed than we are? Does Michelle do more than we see, perhaps enough for Jana to be impressed? Has she at least been good at meeting Jana's emotional needs even if she has relied on Jana to work like an adult from an early age?

The family dynamics here are fascinating.

 

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I remember JB saying something about M's kids rise up and call her blessed. That's straight from the Magnificat where Mary praises God for making her an unwed mother, (I'll see myself to the prayer closet.)

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2 minutes ago, Bad Wolf said:

I remember JB saying something about M's kids rise up and call her blessed. That's straight from the Magnificat where Mary praises God for making her an unwed mother, (I'll see myself to the prayer closet.)

It's also from Proverbs 31:28. From the KJV that our fundies love so much:

Quote

Her children arise up, and call her blessed; her husband also, and he praiseth her.

 

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22 minutes ago, Bad Wolf said:

I remember JB saying something about M's kids rise up and call her blessed. That's straight from the Magnificat where Mary praises God for making her an unwed mother, (I'll see myself to the prayer closet.)

It is originally from Proverbs 31-28

"Her children arise up, and call her blessed; her husband also, and he praiseth her." KJV

JB is using a standard Judeo-Christian description of the "virtuous woman." 

You are right that there is a connection with Mary's words in Luke:

"... he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed." Luke 1:48 KJV

These echo Proverbs and are part of the tradition of the "virtuous woman."  JB would not be connecting Michelle to Mary. (That would be almost Catholic.)

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Also, Luke 1 46-55. There was some plagiarism going on, back in the day. JB probably was referring to Proverbs "A virtuous woman". Still a bit presumptuous IMHO.

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Just now, Bad Wolf said:

Also, Luke 1 46-55. There was some plagiarism going on, back in the day. JB probably was referring to Proverbs "A virtuous woman". Still a bit presumptuous IMHO.

There is an old tradition that Proverbs 31:10-31 portray the ideal wife ("virtuous woman" or more accurately "woman of valor"-- with "valor" here meaning something like "worth").  It is not uncommon for religious husbands to use quotes from Proverbs to praise (or chastise) a wife, mother, or child.

So rather than presumptuous, I find JB unoriginal. (You don't have to go far to find that quote.) :kitty-wink:

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1 hour ago, EmCatlyn said:

Interesting. I never followed the show and couldn't have told you the difference between Jana and Jessa until a year ago. But given that most people agree that Jana is the real person raising the kids and minding the house, why would she be insisting otherwise?

Is she telling the truth as she sees it?  Is she defending her mom out of loyalty even if it means disguising how great a responsibility she herself has taken? Does she feel she has to lie a little to protect the mother she seems to adore?  Or is she the only one in the position to understand and appreciate Michelle's real contribution?  Is she, in fact, better informed than we are? Does Michelle do more than we see, perhaps enough for Jana to be impressed? Has she at least been good at meeting Jana's emotional needs even if she has relied on Jana to work like an adult from an early age?

The family dynamics here are fascinating.

 

Maybe Jana is  in denial about how much she contributes to the raising of her siblings? She knows about her CinderJana reputation and probably thinks people are exaggerating and truly believes her mom is being a mom. No one wants to admit they are their family's "slave".  

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43 minutes ago, Eatingintheprayercloset said:

Maybe Jana is  in denial about how much she contributes to the raising of her siblings? She knows about her CinderJana reputation and probably thinks people are exaggerating and truly believes her mom is being a mom. No one wants to admit they are their family's "slave".  

She may also believe that this is normal. After, this life is all she's ever really experienced on a deep level, and in her world, older siblings (especially older sisters) take care of the little ones to help Mom and Dad. In reality, of course, helping out doesn't require nearly as much as has been required of Jana.

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2 hours ago, EmCatlyn said:

Interesting. I never followed the show and couldn't have told you the difference between Jana and Jessa until a year ago. But given that most people agree that Jana is the real person raising the kids and minding the house, why would she be insisting otherwise?

Is she telling the truth as she sees it?  Is she defending her mom out of loyalty even if it means disguising how great a responsibility she herself has taken? Does she feel she has to lie a little to protect the mother she seems to adore?  Or is she the only one in the position to understand and appreciate Michelle's real contribution?  Is she, in fact, better informed than we are? Does Michelle do more than we see, perhaps enough for Jana to be impressed? Has she at least been good at meeting Jana's emotional needs even if she has relied on Jana to work like an adult from an early age?

The family dynamics here are fascinating.

 

DENIAL!

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What is "normal" life when you have a huge house and 19 kids to take care of?  If only there was a documentary or reality TV program that could show us how one woman could do all that...oh wait.

The reality is that one woman could not do all that even if she had the greatest scheduling tools ever invented.  I believe that for most of Jana's life she witnessed first hand her mom working herself to exhaustion trying to take care of an ever-increasing brood while treating her husband like a king, meanwhile building up the real estate empire, home schooling, and booking speaking engagements around the US, all while being pregnant or breastfeeding.   I don't know how she did it and, yes, she relied on a LOT of help from her friends and family. I believe that she also managed to do all this while staying sweet and using her baby voice so maybe Jana thinks her mom is the most fabulous mom who ever lived because she did so much but seldom lost her temper. Maybe Jana saw Michelle spend 12 hours a day supervising and juggling housework/children/husband yet  still find time to listen to complaints and problems and fears. 

Do I think that Michelle did as good a job raising her children as most mothers do?  Hell no.  Not even close. There weren't enough hours in the day. Yet if you are brainwashed to believe that God wants you to get pregnant every year and do all of the child-minding and housekeeping then you might think that Michelle did an amazing job. All of her kids are still alive (you know-- except for Caleb and Jubilee) relatively unscathed (I mean they all still have their eyes and limbs) and they all profess to love Jesus.

TL;DR: I have no problem believing that to Jana, Michelle is a hero because Michelle did everything she was supposed to do.

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There could be a raft of reasons why Jana defends Michelle's parenting, but I think the core of the defence is due to their dysfunctional family dynamics.

We know that the older girls were, to some extent, parentified. This dynamic, in and of itself, can have major psychological implications for adult survivors of this kind of situation.

Parentifcation is more than just having a child do chores, it basically involves having the child take over the emotional role as well as many of the physical responsibilities of the parents. This generally happens in families with narcissistic parents, and/or when families do not have good boundaries. For this reason, many parentified children become emotionally emeshed with their parents. In these cases, the adult children literally cannot distinguish between their parents emotions and their own emotions. The dynamic can become so extreme that the child doesn't know how to separate their feelings or experiences from their parents. I'm these cases, the child is going to defend the parent against everyone and everything, because, by defending the parent, they are defending themselves.

I don't know if the parentifcation experienced by the Duggar daughters was emotionally severe or that it is accompanied by emeshment, but given the dynamics shown on these TV shows it would not surprise me if some level of emeshment happened with some of the girls.

Some light reading on parentification and emeshed parenting:

http://www.emotionalabuseanswers.org/emoabu/emotional-abuse-behaviors/enmeshment/

https://www.mentalhelp.net/blogs/family-boundaries-and-the-parentified-child/

http://www.outofthefog.net/forum/index.php?topic=16100.0

FYI - I'm going to call trigger warning on the articles for those of us who lived through emotional abuse...

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10 minutes ago, Kittikatz said:

This looks like good reading. I'm going to bookmark these for when I have more time.

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Another reason why Jana defends her mother might be very simple, in my personal opinion: Michelle is her mother.

That doesn't mean that there are no underlying issues with Jana. I merely mean that probably most of us would be very reluctant to throw our own families under the bus publicly, especially when still living with them and being dependent.

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3 minutes ago, samurai_sarah said:

Another reason why Jana defends her mother might be very simple, in my personal opinion: Michelle is her mother.

That doesn't mean that there are no underlying issues with Jana. I merely mean that probably most of us would be very reluctant to throw our own families under the bus publicly, especially when still living with them and being dependent.

My original question had to do with the assertion that, from the beginning of the show, Jana  was the only one of the children who not only was articulate in praise of her mother but also denied that her mother left too much work for her and the other daughters to do.  The others were apparently more ambiguous.

So, yes, I agree that kids will defend their parents -- sometimes especially when something is wrong -- but my question is why Jana more than the others?

I do think she identifies with her mother, and I think also that she probably observed better than any of the others how hard Michelle really worked in the early years.  And I agree about the dysfunctionality of the family in general.  But something seems to be different about Jana.  

It isn't just that she hasn't married. In her shoes I might have concluded that kissing the prince will only reveal the frog, so I might take my time also.  I think that"something" has to do with her relationship with Michelle.  

While talking about emmeshment and parentification and denial may get us close to a general idea of what has gone into forming all these young people, the question of how her relationship with Michelle has affected Jana is much harder to answer.   But it is part of what makes the Duggars interesting to me.

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