Investigation of FLDS Graveyard of Babies Born of Incest

[lawlifelgbt]

Just put library requests on The Witness Wore Red, Stolen Innocence, and The Sound Of Gravel. If it turns out I can't read them now, because some FJers are in the reading queue ahead of me, I will hunt you down! 

[NeverAFundie]

22 hours ago, FundieFarmer said:

Wait. I think I've missed something. Where has everyone gone that the whole YFZ ranch is up for sale?

The State of Texas seized the ranch in 2014, the end result of papers filed in 2012 to take possession of the ranch under a state statute that permits seizure of property that is used in the commission of a crime.  By 2014 there were only 8 residents on the ranch (all adults).

http://fox13now.com/2014/04/17/texas-to-seize-flds-ranch/

[DaisyD]

I'm well aware of the child brides of Warren Jeffs and his disciples. I really am. The photo gallery at the bottom of that article still, somehow, managed to get to me.

[DutchMommy]

2 hours ago, daisyd681 said:

I'm well aware of the child brides of Warren Jeffs and his disciples. I really am. The photo gallery at the bottom of that article still, somehow, managed to get to me.

Those pictures are horrible!!
Even with their faces blurred, you can still see those are GIRLS, not women...

 

[Dollypeeps]

I bought the witness wore red and triumph as well. 

I was intrigued by this cult and went down the rabbit hole and some books later too. 

Took awhile of course and I am gobsmacked at it all. Still delving. 

Warren Jeffs is narcissistic and still has his followers sadly. The brainwashing of these people mainly to woman is disgusting but no different from other cults. 

I had no idea that "lost boys" could be as young as 10 and younger too all so the older men can marry the girls off. I always assumed they where teens not that matters of course  

I knew of the inbreeding but the scale it's at will have dire effects on their futures as the older ones die out and it won't be pretty either. 

From what I can gather Warren wasn't Rulon's eldest but integrated himself into his position right from the start to gain favour with his father to gain that power. Insidious little bastard for sure. 

The graveyard well I have no words as it just makes me cry. 

 

[lawlifelgbt]

Favorite Wife is on library hold for me! Looking forward to it.

[OyToTheVey]

On 4/4/2016 at 0:31 AM, DaffyDill said:

Well that's it in a nutshell. They're pretty much all descended from the same Barlow and Jessop ancestors who carried a gene for fumarase deficiency. And because they keep breeding close family members to close family members to "keep the bloodline pure" and don't want outsiders to "taint" the bloodlines, the gene for fumarate deficiency is appearing in more and more of them.

Not all communities are as irresponsible. The Ashkenazi Jewish population, where the community was struck by a recessive genetic disorder resulting Infantile Tay-Sachs disease in children who, after the first few months of life can become blind, deaf, atrophied, unable to swallow, and die a rather awful death before the age of four, are different. The organisation Dor Yeshorim carries out genetic screening so that couples with Tay-Sachs can either choose to not marry, or marry but not have children. The Asknenazi Jewish population appear to have been thankful for the genetic screening, unlike the FLDS who refuse to participate, and see their chronically ill infants and children as a test from God.

I'm Ashkenazi, every couple I know has gotten that test before marriage. I know a few cases where the rabbi insisted on the test. It's decreased cases of Tay-Sachs a lot. We have other genetic issues because such a small population, if you look back on family trees all 6M left are some how interrelated anyway.

[OodOnTheLoo]

I'm going to need some of you to step up and be my sister wives, to take care of my home, husband, child and pets while I continue to spend all day reading books by former FLDS.  It's been a week and chores are backing up.

You basically owe me after pushing me down this rabbit hole.  Come one,. Haven't even gotten to the documentaries yet.

[Milly-Molly-Mandy]

Thanks for the recommendations, 

the witness wore red was very good. 

Had already read shattered dream by her sister. 

 

Have any of jeffs wives written books?

Should we start a FJ book club

[Blueruin]

3 hours ago, Milly-Molly-Mandy said:

Thanks for the recommendations, 

the witness wore red was very good. 

Had already read shattered dream by her sister. 

 

Have any of jeffs wives written books?

Should we start a FJ book club

FJ book club? 

Count me in!

[refugee]

On 4/21/2016 at 1:03 PM, BabyBottlePop said:

I love reading cult memoirs or memoirs about the FLDS. I just got Heaven's Harlots, about the Children of God cult, but haven't started it yet.

oh my. My highschool boyfriend got sucked into Children of God in the 70s, and tried his best to get me to join him there. His letters gave me shivers. Horrible, messed up group.

[Sugarshoc]

Hi everyone. I'm new and not new. I used to lurk on the old boards. Life got super crazy and now I've signed up to this new FJ. I just read the article the OP posted. Wow! I've always been intrigued by all of this. Sooooo crazy! I found myself doing side research as I was reading the article. So much and so incredibly sad.

[Blueruin]

I ordered three of the books that have been mentioned here, I'm guessing this weekend is going to be one big fall down the rabbit hole. 

[LadyCrow1313]

On ‎4‎/‎3‎/‎2016 at 2:18 AM, samira_catlover said:

OK, I looked at the cemetery pictures.

Have no bio-kids of my own (all my babies go MEOW and have four paws and fur), but is anyone else feeling a sadness at gravestones marked only with "BabyWhatever Surname", and date of death? 

My knowledge of FLDS and mainstream LDS stuff is really pretty limited, but i *thought* a Big Deal was in having kids to help allow spirit children in whatever realm(s) they believe in to get earthly bodies and work out their salvation. (Not Going There, being neither Mormon nor theologian.)

It seems so very sad that the stillborn children didn't even get given a first name!---again, my apologies to LDS-backgrounded readers, but if it's OK to baptize for the dead, is it horribly out-of-line to take a sadly-stillborn child and name her/him as "Sarah" or "Jacob" or "Abraham" or SOMETHING?

 

Reminds me of a little headstone that I've seen in a local cemetery. It reads "Little Nameless", & it makes me very sad. This poor baby/young child died without a name, & I have no idea as to the circumstances behind his/her death. RIP, Angel.

[samira_catlover]

Dear All Merciful Gods at once.

42 minutes ago, LadyCrow1313 said:

Reminds me of a little headstone that I've seen in a local cemetery. It reads "Little Nameless", & it makes me very sad. This poor baby/young child died without a name, & I have no idea as to the circumstances behind his/her death. RIP, Angel.

If circumstances are such that an embryo/fetus is carried for weeks or months for whatever reason (and FWIW, am MILITANTLY pro-choice here)...to call a dead being "little nameless" is (IMNSHO) outrageously offensive. Can the relatives not even give the dead one the dignity of a name, to say "we recognize you, you are OURS, and we mourn your loss"?!!??!

Last time I got this upset was over "America's Unknown Child"---a child, murdered and dead from blunt trauma, and STILL not identified nearly 60 years later. <3 Philadelphia Child.

**makes all sorts of loving thoughts for the unmourned and/or nameless dead--THIS is an obscenity! I worked at an agency that cared for developmentally disabled adults, and for those with no relatives, or those who just couldn't handle a funeral, we waked them properly and arranged cremation, with ashes buried (in a common plot) in a PROPER cemetery, with marked gravestone and all, because sending our folks to the Potter's Field to lie among the nameless dead is ugly beyond belief. **

[Cleopatra7]

9 minutes ago, samira_catlover said:

Dear All Merciful Gods at once.

If circumstances are such that an embryo/fetus is carried for weeks or months for whatever reason (and FWIW, am MILITANTLY pro-choice here)...to call a dead being "little nameless" is (IMNSHO) outrageously offensive. Can the relatives not even give the dead one the dignity of a name, to say "we recognize you, you are OURS, and we mourn your loss"?!!??!

Last time I got this upset was over "America's Unknown Child"---a child, murdered and dead from blunt trauma, and STILL not identified nearly 60 years later. <3 Philadelphia Child.

**makes all sorts of loving thoughts for the unmourned and/or nameless dead--THIS is an obscenity! I worked at an agency that cared for developmentally disabled adults, and for those with no relatives, or those who just couldn't handle a funeral, we waked them properly and arranged cremation, with ashes buried (in a common plot) in a PROPER cemetery, with marked gravestone and all, because sending our folks to the Potter's Field to lie among the nameless dead is ugly beyond belief. **

Unfortunately, children seem to be little more than commodities in the FLDS. If a man has more than one wife, it's not hard to fill his quiver, so if a couple of kids die prematurely from horrific birth defects or a dodgy homebirth that went awry, it's not hard to make a replacement. Everyone is replaceable in the FLDS except for the prophet.

[Rescinded and Mended]

On 4/3/2016 at 3:36 AM, season of life said:

Do you recall the name of the documentary?

I caught part of the documentary, but can't quite remember the name. I own a copy of 'Church of Lies,' written by Flora Jessop. Because Flora was such a contentious firecracker during her time in the FLDS, she was sent to Uncle Fred's house to "straighten out." Uncle Fred was one of the higher-ups in the FLDS leadership and half-brother to Flora's own father. Fred's first wife was a woman by the name of Aunt Lydia. Flora was a virtual slave in their household for at least two years, and was primarily made to serve Lydia, who ran the childbirth clinic and was responsible for helping to set up the child cemetery. Small wonder that she revisted the place in the documentary, based on her involvement with Lydia.

Here's what Flora herself has to say about it:

"There wasn't a meaner woman in the world than Lydia Jessop. And she was a powerful woman in her own right. Lydia...was a midwife. She ran the birthing center and the first-aid clinic, which were actually attached to Uncle Fred's house. But she was no angel of mercy. she sincerely believed a woman had to suffer to near death when she gave birth, and Lydia also practiced her own brand of medicine. When the occasional unfortunate outsider - a camper or a hiker - went into premature labor near Hildale and ended up at the clinic, Lydia refused to help them and sent them away. Many of these women wound up losing their babies because of her." (Church of Lies, pgs. 36-37)

I've read in other books about the FLDS that the cult has the world's highest rate of Fumarase Deficiency, and that some women were giving birth to blobs of protoplasm.

I wonder how many of those poor babies Flora was forced to help bury.

[devoe364]

On 4/6/2016 at 7:43 PM, Eclipse said:

I grew up near a large population of old order mennonites in Ontario. They recognized about years ago that their children were being born with higher levels of learning disabilities, mental retardation and a rare disease compared to the general population. Most of these communities have increased the groups that they will marry with and about a general ago it became quite common (and our encourage by their elders) to marry someone from their community who is from another province or from the USA. They made that change deliberately to try and increase their genetic diversity.  They haven't solved the problem and they still have higher levels of learning disabilities compared to the general population, but at least they recognized what the issue is. 

Is this in Leamington County?

There are large groups of Old Colony Mennonites in Alberta and Manitoba as well. Cleft palates and miscarriages are the most common side effects of double cousin weddings that I've seen. 

[NeverAFundie]

1 hour ago, samira_catlover said:

If circumstances are such that an embryo/fetus is carried for weeks or months for whatever reason (and FWIW, am MILITANTLY pro-choice here)...to call a dead being "little nameless" is (IMNSHO) outrageously offensive. Can the relatives not even give the dead one the dignity of a name, to say "we recognize you, you are OURS, and we mourn your loss"?!!??!

I think one reason they do this is because they are so hugely suspicious of the government knowing anything about them.  It is not unusual for babies to be born and never receive a birth certificate or social security number.  I can see how the cult would justify vaguely-marked, and unmarked graves as a way to "protect" the cult from prying gentile eyes.  The church does maintain meticulous records internally--marriages, babies, family "reassignments"...all tracked internally in extensive written records that they keep in hidden, locked vaults.  Let us not forget that those meticulous records were a big part of the evidence that ultimately convicted Warren.

[samira_catlover]

OK, I can't even anymore.

May ALL the Dear Deities of Mercy and Compassion send all sorts of aid and comfort and healing!

@allfolks: You might get a Challenged Child, and if so, my heart and pity and Honest Sendings of Comfort and Strength are wayyyyyy open to you (use if you can: if it's wayyyy weird for you, please PUNT or something, and send it to others!).  May you (whatever background: this is NO time to be all denominational) get strength, grace, courage, Worldly Resources, WHATEVER you need to come through.

Can I get a big honest HURRAY! from peoples who are begging the Blessed Eternal to send down healthy babies, or, if this is not to be----PLEASE gather lots of loving people who will cherish kids with challenges?

 

[samira_catlover]

2 minutes ago, NeverAFundie said:

I think one reason they do this is because they are so hugely suspicious of the government knowing anything about them.  It is not unusual for babies to be born and never receive a birth certificate or social security number.  I can see how the cult would justify vaguely-marked, and unmarked graves as a way to "protect" the cult from prying gentile eyes.  The church does maintain meticulous records internally--marriages, babies, family "reassignments"...all tracked internally in extensive written records that they keep in hidden, locked vaults.  Let us not forget that those meticulous records were a big part of the evidence that ultimately convicted Warren.

You are making me scream in horror and rage. Damn it, dead people (and I am pretty flexible about fetuses at various ages, and let's just pass on abortion issues for the sake of amity) NEED to be recognized! THEY EXISTED.  If you are gonna fuss with a gravesite, that IS a significant loss, and all-gods-damn-it, can't you at least name your loss (even though NAMELESS?

If you are gonna be all worried about the putative potential Babiezzzzz in my sterile womb, you will excuse me if I ask about the well-beings of your recently-borne critters.

Oh, uhhh, you are SOOOOOOO scared of the Ebil Gubermint that you will not acknowledge your lawful child, born in your form of matrimony, and not just a bastard? {my apologies to folks born of Very Irregular Unions] (and your and my defs of Legal Matrimony might vary a whole lot, and let's just leave it there)---excuse my language, but fuck you very much.

Children---regardless of their begetting---need lots of (no particular order) care, love, good nutrition, caring parents (pick your mix!), books, decent medical care, hugs, acceptance, understanding, and three million things I haven't bothered to name.

 

[NeverAFundie]

1 minute ago, samira_catlover said:

Children---regardless of their begetting---need lots of (no particular order) care, love, good nutrition, caring parents (pick your mix!), books, decent medical care, hugs, acceptance, understanding, and three million things I haven't bothered to name.

 

My friend, the FLDS children get virtually none of these things.  Care and love vary from family to family, I'm sure, but the bottom line is that when you're in a house with at least three mothers and upwards of 60 children, care and love is in short supply, even in non-abusive households.

Good nutrition?  Unless you are in the prophet's house, you get virtually nothing.  All members turn over their SNAP and other government benefits directly to the church. Those benefits ostensibly supply the "store house" that all members use, but the reality (as demonstrated in the recent indictments) is that the prophet's home and other higher ups are living large on those benefits, while the rank-and-file members get things like one bag of rice a week.

Caring parents?  Well, if you're a boy, around age 8-9 you start working.  All day, every day, in the hot sun of the southern Utah/northern Arizona desert, with your shirt buttoned to your chin, long pants, and the required long undergarments.  Once you hit adolescence (age 11 and up), you stand a very good chance of getting run out of town for things like missing curfew, or any number of tiny infractions that may be real, or just made up.  Your own parents will drive you out to the highway and leave you there to fend for yourself.  Why?  To reduce the competitiveness for wives.  You could also be run out of town by the Short Creek cops, all of whom report to Warren, and nobody else.  Those cops would have dragged you before the town judge, who ALSO reported to Warren (and was kicked off the bench in the early 2000s), who would have sentenced you to hundreds of hours of "community service" without any sort of hearing, as a way to pressure you to leave town voluntarily.

And if you're a girl, your caring parents will "turn you in" to the prophet when you are as young as TWELVE to marry whomever the prophet says.  Oftentimes you are related in some way to your new husband.  Oftentimes your new husband is at least 30 years older than you.  Remember those Short Creek cops? If you run away, those cops will just take you right back home, regardless of the abuse you report to them.  (That kind of thing is part of what led to the criminal conviction earlier this year of both towns in Short Creek, and why the likely "sentence," which will be handed down later this year, will involve putting both towns under the direct management and authority of either the state or federal government.)

Books? None, except the Bible, and stuff written by Warren.  It didn't used to be that strict; Rebecca Musser talks of reading Laura Ingalls Wilder books as a child in the late 70s and early 80s.

Medical care? Virtually none.  Hell...even the bishop of Short Creek (Fred Jessop) was denied medical care when he was 90+ years old, dying, and NOT EVEN A THREAT TO WARREN'S POWER.  Rebecca Musser talks about one of her brothers being beaten so badly by their father's first wife that FINALLY someone took that poor kid to the hospital.  With kidney serious damage.

Acceptance and understanding? For 15 years since Warren de facto took control from his invalid father, his purpose has been to see how blindly his followers will follow.  Nobody blinked when he told them nobody would ever celebrate another holiday again.  Nobody blinked when he told them no more pets, and the God Squad came around and took everyones' dogs and SHOT OR ELECTROCUTED them.  And of course, nobody blinked when he married a 12-year old girl and then tied her to a bed in the temple and raped her in the presence of multiple witnesses in a "religious rite."  And audio recorded the whole thing as part of his "priesthood record."

Warren has forecast the apocalypse at least ten times (that we know about) since he assumed control of the cult.  When the declared date comes and goes, he blames the people for not being faithful enough, saying that God has granted them more time to be more holy and worthy of the apocalypse.

The amount of brainwashing is staggering.  People compare Warren to Jim Jones, or David Koresh, or Charles Manson. But Warren commands far more people than any of those men.  The brainwashing there goes back for generations.  Even in its current fractured state, the church continues to grow simply because each woman gives birth to at least 8 children.

It is disgusting.  It is shocking.  It is human trafficking, child rape, rampant abuse, and massive violations of civil and human rights.

[devoe364]

On 4/6/2016 at 5:01 AM, missegeno said:

Come, join me in the FLDS obsession!

I am already there and I've been following this for years! Honestly I think it started with Oprah in the 90s. I remember when Jeffs was arrested.

I have to admit, I have always been drawn to fundamentalists. I was in several relationships with Old Colony Mennonites, have read books about the Amish for years, and have always been interested in cults. David Koresh and CNN are totally responsible for my interest in fringe religious groups in general (I was about 11 years old when the stand off happened, and I watched it live).

That said, I have never found the idea of multiple partners horrifying and still have no problem with polygamy if it is practiced by consenting adults who aren't closely related to each other.

That said, Jeffs and the FLDS are disgusting. Winston Blackmore, who has been excomunicated by Jeffs has like 150 children, is apparently still getting married. They traffic these young girls into and out of polygamist communities and meanwhile the young men are being removed from the community.

I find Blackmore more dangerous then Jeffs however. While Jeffs is a psycho who has a weird mind control thing going on in Short Creek, Blackmore does his best to normalize his lifestyle, while he still marries really young women - and I doubt all these 17/18 year olds he marries are jumping at marrying a man with kids older than they are. 

150 kids... he claimed 21 wives in a tax evation trial.That's an average of about 7 kids per wife. 

[Cleopatra7]

45 minutes ago, NeverAFundie said:

My friend, the FLDS children get virtually none of these things.  Care and love vary from family to family, I'm sure, but the bottom line is that when you're in a house with at least three mothers and upwards of 60 children, care and love is in short supply, even in non-abusive households.

Good nutrition?  Unless you are in the prophet's house, you get virtually nothing.  All members turn over their SNAP and other government benefits directly to the church. Those benefits ostensibly supply the "store house" that all members use, but the reality (as demonstrated in the recent indictments) is that the prophet's home and other higher ups are living large on those benefits, while the rank-and-file members get things like one bag of rice a week.

Caring parents?  Well, if you're a boy, around age 8-9 you start working.  All day, every day, in the hot sun of the southern Utah/northern Arizona desert, with your shirt buttoned to your chin, long pants, and the required long undergarments.  Once you hit adolescence (age 11 and up), you stand a very good chance of getting run out of town for things like missing curfew, or any number of tiny infractions that may be real, or just made up.  Your own parents will drive you out to the highway and leave you there to fend for yourself.  Why?  To reduce the competitiveness for wives.  You could also be run out of town by the Short Creek cops, all of whom report to Warren, and nobody else.  Those cops would have dragged you before the town judge, who ALSO reported to Warren (and was kicked off the bench in the early 2000s), who would have sentenced you to hundreds of hours of "community service" without any sort of hearing, as a way to pressure you to leave town voluntarily.

And if you're a girl, your caring parents will "turn you in" to the prophet when you are as young as TWELVE to marry whomever the prophet says.  Oftentimes you are related in some way to your new husband.  Oftentimes your new husband is at least 30 years older than you.  Remember those Short Creek cops? If you run away, those cops will just take you right back home, regardless of the abuse you report to them.  (That kind of thing is part of what led to the criminal conviction earlier this year of both towns in Short Creek, and why the likely "sentence," which will be handed down later this year, will involve putting both towns under the direct management and authority of either the state or federal government.)

Books? None, except the Bible, and stuff written by Warren.  It didn't used to be that strict; Rebecca Musser talks of reading Laura Ingalls Wilder books as a child in the late 70s and early 80s.

Medical care? Virtually none.  Hell...even the bishop of Short Creek (Fred Jessop) was denied medical care when he was 90+ years old, dying, and NOT EVEN A THREAT TO WARREN'S POWER.  Rebecca Musser talks about one of her brothers being beaten so badly by their father's first wife that FINALLY someone took that poor kid to the hospital.  With kidney serious damage.

Acceptance and understanding? For 15 years since Warren de facto took control from his invalid father, his purpose has been to see how blindly his followers will follow.  Nobody blinked when he told them nobody would ever celebrate another holiday again.  Nobody blinked when he told them no more pets, and the God Squad came around and took everyones' dogs and SHOT OR ELECTROCUTED them.  And of course, nobody blinked when he married a 12-year old girl and then tied her to a bed in the temple and raped her in the presence of multiple witnesses in a "religious rite."  And audio recorded the whole thing as part of his "priesthood record."

Warren has forecast the apocalypse at least ten times (that we know about) since he assumed control of the cult.  When the declared date comes and goes, he blames the people for not being faithful enough, saying that God has granted them more time to be more holy and worthy of the apocalypse.

The amount of brainwashing is staggering.  People compare Warren to Jim Jones, or David Koresh, or Charles Manson. But Warren commands far more people than any of those men.  The brainwashing there goes back for generations.  Even in its current fractured state, the church continues to grow simply because each woman gives birth to at least 8 children.

It is disgusting.  It is shocking.  It is human trafficking, child rape, rampant abuse, and massive violations of civil and human rights.

I'm going to have to disagree with you about Warren Jeff's having more power than Jim Jones. At the height of People's Temple, Jones was a major player in San Francisco's political scene, which was one reason why defecters had such a hard time being believed at first (like Scientology, Jones also had a cadre of devotees who threatened ex-members and made members sign bogus confessions involving child molestation and the like that could be used if they left). He had the support of the likes of George Muscone and Harvey Milk, and even Roselyn Carter stumped with him. Warren Jeff's doesn't have mainstream support. Rather, the state gives the FLDS a wide berth because they're afraid of another Waco. In Guyana, Jones also had contact with the Guyanese government and the Soviet Union, so his influence was dispersed.

It's also worth remembering that in many cases three or four generations of the same family died at Jonestown. Jones had control over entire extended families, most of whom where completely annihilated after the suicides/murders. His influence may have been relatively brief, but it was deadly for those who got caught in his web.

[LadyCrow1313]

53 minutes ago, Cleopatra7 said:

I'm going to have to disagree with you about Warren Jeff's having more power than Jim Jones. At the height of People's Temple, Jones was a major player in San Francisco's political scene, which was one reason why defecters had such a hard time being believed at first (like Scientology, Jones also had a cadre of devotees who threatened ex-members and made members sign bogus confessions involving child molestation and the like that could be used if they left). He had the support of the likes of George Muscone and Harvey Milk, and even Roselyn Carter stumped with him. Warren Jeff's doesn't have mainstream support. Rather, the state gives the FLDS a wide berth because they're afraid of another Waco. In Guyana, Jones also had contact with the Guyanese government and the Soviet Union, so his influence was dispersed.

It's also worth remembering that in many cases three or four generations of the same family died at Jonestown. Jones had control over entire extended families, most of whom where completely annihilated after the suicides/murders. His influence may have been relatively brief, but it was deadly for those who got caught in his web.

I vaguely remember the whole Jim Jones fiasco when I was growing up, but CNN runs a special about Jonestown from time to time. I've watched it a few times, & I get disgusted & sad. Jim Jones was one of the worst pieces of shit that ever walked the earth, & everytime I hear clips of him talking to his "people" & there are babies screaming in the background, I truly hope & wish that he is in Hell (& being tortured in the worst ways possible). He makes me incredibly angry.