Investigation of FLDS Graveyard of Babies Born of Incest

[NeverAFundie]

41 minutes ago, Cleopatra7 said:

I'm going to have to disagree with you about Warren Jeff's having more power than Jim Jones. At the height of People's Temple, Jones was a major player in San Francisco's political scene, which was one reason why defecters had such a hard time being believed at first (like Scientology, Jones also had a cadre of devotees who threatened ex-members and made members sign bogus confessions involving child molestation and the like that could be used if they left). He had the support of the likes of George Muscone and Harvey Milk, and even Roselyn Carter stumped with him. Warren Jeff's doesn't have mainstream support. Rather, the state gives the FLDS a wide berth because they're afraid of another Waco. In Guyana, Jones also had contact with the Guyanese government and the Soviet Union, so his influence was dispersed.

It's also worth remembering that in many cases three or four generations of the same family died at Jonestown. Jones had control over entire extended families, most of whom where completely annihilated after the suicides/murders. His influence may have been relatively brief, but it was deadly for those who got caught in his web.

I agree completely that Jim Jones had waaaaaay more "regular world" influence than Warren could ever dream of having.  My (rather inartful) point was that, even at its height, the Peoples Temple had a maximum of about 5,000 actual devotees.  Jim Jones amassed a lot of political and popular support because he had done so much for integration in Indiana, and he had created an integrated church.  The movers and shakers you mention, while supportive of Jim Jones, don't seem to have been cult members, nor does it seem they much of an idea what the cult was turning into.  People like Sam Brower (who wrote Prophet's Prey), and others who have investigated the FLDS extensively, believe that there are a minimum of 10,000 FLDS adherents, the overwhelming majority of whom would shoot a law enforcement professional in the face with no provocation if Warren asked them to.  I also know that many experts have feared mass suicide in Short Creek for years, should Warren order it.

So yes...Jim Jones absolutely had more power in general as his church was gaining notoriety than Warren.  It's a tough comparison because of the dramatically different political and social climates, and the fact that Jim Jones was coming at his cult from the left (he was a devoted communist for many years) at a time when the country was taking a very notable turn away from conservatism, and Warren comes at his cult from the right at a time when being an extreme reactionary isn't going to win you much widespread popular support (unless you're Donald Trump).  The size of the FLDS cult concerns me greatly, though, considering that Warren appears to exercise absolute control and they have made it very clear that they are willing to take up armed resistance against the government.  

I love talking about this stuff.  Thanks for the info!

 

[mstee]

Regarding a comment from a page before, I had no idea that warren tied that poor girl up to a bed on their "wedding night". And who were the witnesses? I've read up on FLDS a lot but I missed these very sad details. 

[OodOnTheLoo]

14 hours ago, Cleopatra7 said:

Unfortunately, children seem to be little more than commodities in the FLDS. If a man has more than one wife, it's not hard to fill his quiver, so if a couple of kids die prematurely from horrific birth defects or a dodgy homebirth that went awry, it's not hard to make a replacement. Everyone is replaceable in the FLDS except for the prophet.

Depending, the babies were so pure God called them home right away OR the mother was being punished for not trusting in God/the prophet/her priesthood head (husband).  She could help assure healthy babies in the future with complete submission and obedience.

[Yogi]

I caught part of the documentary, but can't quite remember the name. I own a copy of 'Church of Lies,' written by Flora Jessop. Because Flora was such a contentious firecracker during her time in the FLDS, she was sent to Uncle Fred's house to "straighten out." Uncle Fred was one of the higher-ups in the FLDS leadership and half-brother to Flora's own father. Fred's first wife was a woman by the name of Aunt Lydia. Flora was a virtual slave in their household for at least two years, and was primarily made to serve Lydia, who ran the childbirth clinic and was responsible for helping to set up the child cemetery. Small wonder that she revisted the place in the documentary, based on her involvement with Lydia.

Here's what Flora herself has to say about it:

"There wasn't a meaner woman in the world than Lydia Jessop. And she was a powerful woman in her own right. Lydia...was a midwife. She ran the birthing center and the first-aid clinic, which were actually attached to Uncle Fred's house. But she was no angel of mercy. she sincerely believed a woman had to suffer to near death when she gave birth, and Lydia also practiced her own brand of medicine. When the occasional unfortunate outsider - a camper or a hiker - went into premature labor near Hildale and ended up at the clinic, Lydia refused to help them and sent them away. Many of these women wound up losing their babies because of her." (Church of Lies, pgs. 36-37)

I've read in other books about the FLDS that the cult has the world's highest rate of Fumarase Deficiency, and that some women were giving birth to blobs of protoplasm.

I wonder how many of those poor babies Flora was forced to help bury. [emoji20]

In The Witness Wore Red she says that both the Barlow and Jessop lines both carry the fumarase gene which is why the rates are so high. Sad.

[missegeno]

Regarding a comment from a page before, I had no idea that warren tied that poor girl up to a bed on their "wedding night". And who were the witnesses? I've read up on FLDS a lot but I missed these very sad details. 

It was the 12 year old. If I remember correctly, he had some of his other wives restrain her. The audio was part of the evidence at the court trial.

As much as I've hungrily devoured everything FLDS, listening to that tape (it's available online) was the one thing I almost wish I had just left unturned.

[devoe364]

36 minutes ago, missegeno said:

It was the 12 year old. If I remember correctly, he had some of his other wives restrain her. The audio was part of the evidence at the court trial.

As much as I've hungrily devoured everything FLDS, listening to that tape (it's available online) was the one thing I almost wish I had just left unturned.

It was the 12 year old. The older wives held her down for him. He also created a special bed at the Yearning for Zion ranch. It has a plastic cover for what is going to happen on it (Jeff's notes).

A lot of the audio recordings for Jeffs are available online. 

I will not listen to any of them. I do not need to listen to his perversions. Reading them is bad enough, 

[ScreamingIzzy]

On 4/9/2016 at 10:51 AM, daisyd681 said:

 

This just makes me ill. I have a 12 year old, and the idea of some man doing this to her makes me want to literally tear him apart with my bare hands. 

 

PS: I'm not sure why the quote box is there, and I don't know how to make it go away.

[NeverAFundie]

I have not heard the audio, and have not seen the Prophet's Prey documentary precisely because I don't think I could listen to the audio.  It is transcribed, however, in numerous books, including The Witness Wore Red.

[devoe364]

22 minutes ago, NeverAFundie said:

I have not heard the audio, and have not seen the Prophet's Prey documentary precisely because I don't think I could listen to the audio.  It is transcribed, however, in numerous books, including The Witness Wore Red.

I read most of it as part of following his trial. Disgusting. 

[DaisyD]

Just saw this on Facebook. A little levity is always good. 

[LadyCrow1313]

1 hour ago, daisyd681 said:

Just saw this on Facebook. A little levity is always good. 

Reminds me of the South Park episode where they did a mockery of David Smith (correct name?), the founder of the Mormons. He sat on the floor & stuck his head inside of a hat to "discover" his Biblical revelations. Very funny episode. 

(ETA: Sorry if this has been mentioned already; my brain is fried, but what else is new.)

[devoe364]

5 minutes ago, LadyCrow1313 said:

Reminds me of the South Park episode where they did a mockery of David Smith (correct name?), the founder of the Mormons. He sat on the floor & stuck his head inside of a hat to "discover" his Biblical revelations. Very funny episode. 

(ETA: Sorry if this has been mentioned already; my brain is fried, but what else is new.)

His name was Joseph Smith. 

[OodOnTheLoo]

Are there any forums or FB pages that keep up with the FLDS/jeffs and those that have escaped?

[DaisyD]

There is a fb, but I don't know it. I follow this Tumblr. http://politicsrusprinciple.tumblr.com

[MarblesMom]

On 4/21/2016 at 5:13 PM, BobTheWalrus said:

"No one is to approach any close relative to have sexual relations."

I haven't read the whole thread, so forgive me if I am repeating another smart FJer .... but how on earth did the Duggar people miss this particular Bible quote?!

Sorry to derail - but wow! This one just stuck out and I had to say something.  (Now back to finish up reading this thread.)

[47of74]

On 4/15/2016 at 10:13 AM, NeverAFundie said:

Some of the convicted church elders will be approaching their release dates later this year and next year, although most of them got loooooong sentences and will be lucky to be out before they die. Barring an overturning of his verdict and/or sentence, Warren will die in jail.  Warren is obviously still running things from jail, but one has to wonder at what point the power vacuum is going to make the whole thing implode.  Particularly with the federal civil rights verdict last month against the two towns that comprise Short Creek; that judge will decide the "sentence" in the coming months.  My own opinion is that the judge will order the towns into some sort of receivership, and place them under state or federal control (my hope is federal control, considering how long Utah and Arizona allowed abuse to go on in the towns, unchecked--remember that it was TEXAS that finally tightened the noose on these assholes).  I also believe that the verdict against the the towns will be the groundwork for individual federal criminal civil rights violation charges against remaining church leaders.  I think the best case scenario is that once the church no longer controls local government and the local police forces, it will be easier for people who want to leave, to actually escape.

Back in January I watched Prophet's Prey when we had the free Showtime preview on DirecTV.  It took me all of about twenty minutes to come to the conclusion that Mr. Jeffs is a completely evil little fuck who deserves to spend all of eternity in a cave that is so deep that he has to look up to see hell.  That bastard turns my stomach.  I've had to hold myself back from putting a fist through the monitor when his image appears on screen.

My question is if the Feds did oust the local government - including the police forces - would they have the people to bring in to replace these guys?  I wouldn't trust the police or the rest of the government to do the right thing as long as even one of them remained in his job.  Would they have to bring people in? 

[DaisyD]

I believe the plan would be to bring in law enforcement from surrounding counties. 

[NeverAFundie]

On 5/14/2016 at 7:36 PM, 47of74 said:

My question is if the Feds did oust the local government - including the police forces - would they have the people to bring in to replace these guys?  I wouldn't trust the police or the rest of the government to do the right thing as long as even one of them remained in his job.  Would they have to bring people in? 

It will depend on the sentence.  If the towns are placed in receivership and the police forces disbanded, they could be under the direct authority of the federal government, their respective state governments, and/or their respective county governments.  The problem with county government stepping in is that the Arizona side is in a HUGE county.  It is more than 4 hours to drive from Colorado City to Kingman, the County seat.  The Grand Canyon separates the county, so you literally have to drive around the canyon, through Las Vegas, to get from Kingman to Colorado City.  That said, I think that the 2016 Arizona budget includes money from the state AG's office to fund additional county sheriff patrols in Short Creek.

My guess is that the feds will push to have federal jurisdiction, especially considering how long the Utah and Arizona state governments let this shit go on in these towns.  If the feds take over, I would imagine they will appoint a "receiver" of some sort for the communities...obviously a non-FLDS one...much like they did when they took control of the trust owning all FLDS property.  In big cities where the feds have taken over the police force (Baltimore, New Orleans), the federal government obviously isn't in a position to oust all officers.  Instead, they embed federal agents (FBI, DEA, US Marshals, and ATF) in the departments to oversee things and work on training the existing officers.  This is much different, because it's pretty apparent that every single existing officer is guilty of blatant abuse of power, and the towns are so small.  It is simultaneously difficult to imagine them letting any of the current officers stay on, but also difficult to imagine how the county, state, and federal governments would staff law enforcement in such isolate communities.

The hearing on penalties isn't until October 24, presumably to give the various government entities to powwow and hopefully suggest a collaborative solution.

[Rescinded and Mended]

I'll add my usual unusual contribution to the polygamy book recommendation list. This one is called The Blood Covenant, by Rena Chynoweth and Dean M. Shapiro. Rena is responsible for the murder of Rulon Allred, leader of the United Apostolic Brethren polygamist group and naturopathic physician, who was perceived as a threat by opposing polygamist leader Ervil LeBaron. LeBaron was a psychopath who formed his own offshoot church, The Church of the First Born Lamb of God, when he was released from his church leadership position by his brother and former church leader, Joel LeBaron. Ervil later ordered the execution of his brother, and a number of other people based on a hit list he'd compiled.

Rena was the 13th wife of Ervil, and he demanded that his "youngest and prettiest wife" execute Rulon Allred. In 1977, Rena walked into Rulon's office wearing a disguise, and shot him seven times. Rena had a skilled lawyer who was able to play on the sympathies of the jury by claiming that such a pretty young mother to be (Rena was about 8 months pregnant at the time) couldn't have done such a thing. She was acquitted on all charges, even though there were witnesses to Allred's murder, and her disguise was discovered in a dumpster when she fled the scene.

I recommend this book entirely for its WTF factor. Rena is 31 years old at the time of its writing, and she makes it clear that she is still involved in some degree with LeBaron's group. She is self-absorbed, whiny, and spends a lot of time talking about how pretty she is and how many different men were attracted to her. While she admits to her role in Allred's killing or even apologizes for it. Her lack of clarity is truly astonishing. She claims that Ervil's group is evil, but you, as the reader, are never convinced that she actually believes it. She sees herself completely as the victim.

Rena later appeared on the Sally Jessy Raphael show, once again in disguise. Immediately after the taping ended for that episode, she was slapped with a civil suit for Rulon's death by his daughter, Dorothy Allred Solomon. The last thing Allred heard as she walked away was Rena's hysterical cries. Rena no longer grants interviews to the press, last I heard.

Sources - The Blood Covenant, by Rena Chynoweth, and Predators, Kinfolk, and Other Prey, by Dorothy Allred Solomon

Also, Chynoweth's book is out of print, and a bit pricey when you can find it online, but definitely worth the read. I don't know if it's been published as an e-book. Probably not, otherwise the Allred family could have actually gotten some of the money from the civil suit they slapped on Rena.

 

TL,DR - read the book, totally worth it for the WTF factor.

 

 

  

On 4/24/2016 at 6:42 PM, lawlifelgbt said:

Just put library requests on The Witness Wore Red, Stolen Innocence, and The Sound Of Gravel. If it turns out I can't read them now, because some FJers are in the reading queue ahead of me, I will hunt you down! 

After you read The Sound of Gravel, make sure you look into Daughters of Zion: A Family's Conversion To Polygamy, by Kim Taylor. Kim is the sister of Kathy, who is the mother of Ruth Wariner, author of the Sound of Gravel. There are points of convergence in both books between the two sisters and Ruth that might interest you. But whatever you do, read Sound of Gravel first. Otherwise...well, spoilers is the best way I can put it, I suppose. Rather, Ruth's account of a tragedy is far more impactful, and the ending will leave you wondering how you could ever go back to leading your normal life. At least, that's how it made me feel.  

[xlurker]

So have fallen down this rabbit hole HARD!!  Been doing some reading, and just ordered The Witness Wore Red.  It all has been shaking my head screaming at the computer screen "WTF!!!!"   Also ordered I Fired God, because Hell, if I am going down a fundamentalist rabbit hole I am jumping in with both feet---Yikes!

 

[devoe364]

19 hours ago, xlurker said:

So have fallen down this rabbit hole HARD!!  Been doing some reading, and just ordered The Witness Wore Red.  It all has been shaking my head screaming at the computer screen "WTF!!!!"   Also ordered I Fired God, because Hell, if I am going down a fundamentalist rabbit hole I am jumping in with both feet---Yikes!

 

Just note that once you fall down this hole there is no coming back. I feel sorry for the kids, particularly because they are raised SCARED to death. I feel that a lot of Gothardites do the same to their kids. 

[xlurker]

57 minutes ago, devoe364 said:

Just note that once you fall down this hole there is no coming back. I feel sorry for the kids, particularly because they are raised SCARED to death. I feel that a lot of Gothardites do the same to their kids

Started reading about plain old LDS, which is weird unto itself--that brought me to Sister Wives and then this.  Uggg, started out just reading the Duggars and am now just amazed that this can go on, amongst sane people.  All those poor children and babies!  What is up with TLC putting lipstick on all these folks and showing them off as different, but normal?

[RosyDaisy]

TLC isn't trying to make them look normal. They are going for the freak factor.

[withaj]

8 hours ago, devoe364 said:

Just note that once you fall down this hole there is no coming back. I feel sorry for the kids, particularly because they are raised SCARED to death. I feel that a lot of Gothardites do the same to their kids. 

100% the deepest rabbit hole. There's a lot of material out there. I suggest the two books by the LeBaron sister wives, too, for a fascinating earlier look.

[devoe364]

9 hours ago, withaj said:

100% the deepest rabbit hole. There's a lot of material out there. I suggest the two books by the LeBaron sister wives, too, for a fascinating earlier look.

I have not read those  yet. I will have to. Principles of Polygamy is my favourite blog on the entire internet. That's said isn't it?