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muffynbear

Where do Fundies get their ideas about modesty and fashion?

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For instance, why do the Duggars believe that polos and jeans are "modest" looking? Is there a Bible verse that says that frumpers must be worn by women? Why does Michelle believe her perm-mullet is modest? Why do fundy women have long hair and is there a bible verse that states that all women must have long hair? Forgive me for my ignorance, I don't read the Bible and have always wondered where the fundy dress code comes from. It seems like fundies are perpetually stuck in the 80s. It seems as if fundies made up a list of approved clothing that they thought God would approve of.

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I believe that the long crispy, wavy hair is required by Gothard. The rest I don't know.

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I was not allowed to cut my hair when I lived at home, nor were my sisters. There's an app a Bible verse for that!

1 Corinthians 11:15 (KJV) - But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering.

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I think someone on the old board theorized that the fashion sense--frumpers, perms, long denim skirts--hearkens back to the beginning of the modern homeschooling movement in the late 80s-early 90s. That's what people--even normal people--were wearing back then, so that became ingrained as the "modest homeschooler" uniform. I'm not sure I buy that entirely, but I can't come up with a better explanation for wearing a crunchy, gelled perm or a denim frumper in 2011.

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I was not allowed to cut my hair when I lived at home, nor were my sisters. There's an app a Bible verse for that!

1 Corinthians 11:15 (KJV) - But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering.

If I follow that verse, can I go about town like Lady Godiva, wearing only my hair.

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I think they deliberately choose styles that will make them look "out" instead of "in". I went to high school at the height of the big hair era. The Duggar girls' hairstyles would have been cool then. But at that time, the uber-fundie girls at my school and around town (mostly Plymouth Brethren or Apostolic) had long, straight Brady Bunch hair without bangs. When I was in seventh grade, there was this fad where you'd buy a certain kind of metal barrettes, weave ribbons around them, and put beads at the end of the ribbons. These were popular for a few months, but the fundie girls wore these things for years and years. And yes, they wore long denim skirts or denim jumpers, neither of which were in style at the time. Short denim skirts were in, but not long ones. The long skirts of choice for non-fundie girls at that time were very full, brightly colored, and made of cotton or rayon, unless you were goth (in which case you'd wear a long, tight, black Morticia Addams skirt) or a Madonna wanna-be (long, full skirt made of black or white lace). The only jumpers I remember seeing on non-fundie girls in high school were made of T-shirt material. Again, they were brightly colored with very full skirts. The early Duggar/Maxwell jumpers weren't in style until the 1990s.

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I remember in an early special J'chelle saying that she preferred her boys to have collared shirts and not t-shirts...no real reason why. Which is funny because nowadays the boys are often in t-shirts. I guess you can tell the older girls dress them now.

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This is a realy interesting topic. I get that the hair thing has a reference in the NT. Many cultures have a hair thing with women. Religious Jews, Muslims and Hindus seem to favor coverning a woman's hair. They have the idea that hair is alluring to men. The Orthdox Jews are especially clever in this regard. They cover their natural hair with a wig!

The collared shirt thing carries over into private and public schools which tout their cred as having good discipline. My guess is that uncollared shirts were traditionally undergarments or worn when doing heavy physical work. Button down collared shirts would must be too difficult to keep neat for young girls (who must launder them) and boys.

A religious Muslim friend of mine wears dark colored slacks to work. In her culture, slacks are more modest because they limit access to a woman's privat parts. I think that if you are in a vagina obssessed group, that makes more sense. I suppose the fundies who insist on skirts/dresses only thing fall back on the thing about women not dressing like men. This is ridiculous though because men did not wear pants in the bible. And they had long hair too.....and facial hair, if they could grow it.

The denim skirts I think came out of the fact that they are easy to care for, match with everything and ubiquitous.

I once asked my Rabbi why the Hasidic Jews dressed like 16th century Polish nobleman. He srugged his shoulders and told me it would have been awfully impractical in the desert attending services at the Temple in Jerusalem.

Snark aside, I think that humans have a tendency to be nostalgic. They romanticize about times gone by at the beginning...of...whatever it is they are reminiscing about. They try really hard to emulate their ideal fantasy of what was best during those times in the context of their beliefs.

Adding back the snark, I think this exptreme need to emulate a time/place/situation that no longer exists is a sign of emotional lack of health. It is sort of like an adult still carrying their blankie with them to work. The blankie was very conforting to them as a small child, bit in reality, did nothing to protect them in a demonstrable way. As adults, humans need to be able to deal with the uncertainty and changes that we face. Survival depends more on being proactive than retroactive.

It seems that the extreme subpopulations are good laboratories to observe manifestation of human behavior that tend to be more sublte in most of us.

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There is a Bible verse about long hair, already mentioned here. Same verse where the headcovering comes from.

As to the rest, I think people generally feel that "older" is "modester". The Amish have simply retained a style that was the norm for their era and region of the world when the group started, though it has become a bit stylized over the centuries.

I think for the denim skirts and jumpers, it's because jeans are out for women, but denim is still hard-wearing, practical, long-lasting, etc.

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I've seen fundies wear modern fashions with more modest cuts, and I've seen fundies look like they were on the Oregon Trail. Fundie fashion is anachronistic, because inevitably if they go far enough you won't be able to tell if they're from the 1990s or 1890s or somewhere in between.

I do have to wonder where exactly they get their ideas of modesty from. It's definitely not the Bible... fashion is very cultural, so obviously they got it from... the worldly. Oh noes!

But then some fundie fashion is nowhere near as modest as "normal" fashion, see Josiah Duggar's swimsuit. Board shorts would be less... defrauding.

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I think someone on the old board theorized that the fashion sense--frumpers, perms, long denim skirts--hearkens back to the beginning of the modern homeschooling movement in the late 80s-early 90s. That's what people--even normal people--were wearing back then, so that became ingrained as the "modest homeschooler" uniform. I'm not sure I buy that entirely, but I can't come up with a better explanation for wearing a crunchy, gelled perm or a denim frumper in 2011.

I wonder how much the "stuck in the 80s/early 90s" thing might also be due to buying secondhand clothes in outdated styles.

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Part of the "skirts are modest for women" thing for some people is about not showing the split between the legs. You can find that brought up when someone argues against the "can't wear clothes made for men" argument with "but plenty of pants are made in explicitly feminine styles for women only, I can wear those right?" argument. No, you can't, because you can see where your legs join.

Similarly some people will wear skirts on top of pants (depending on the skirt and pants in question, it CAN look somewhat stylish, but... very much depending).

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Regarding the perms, at least in the Duggar household, it was mentioned on an episode of Umpteen Kids and Counting (one on saving money, they were doing their home perms) that Michelle and the older girls perm their hair because Boob likes how it looks.

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Regarding the perms, at least in the Duggar household, it was mentioned on an episode of Umpteen Kids and Counting (one on saving money, they were doing their home perms) that Michelle and the older girls perm their hair because Boob likes how it looks.

That has always struck me as creepy. When I was a kid, I knew some girls who couldn't cut their hari because their father liked long hair. That also seemed really weird and icky to me.

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Honestly, I think it all comes from Gothard. Those are his particular preferences so the fundies just go along with it.

They claim that the ridiculous hair is about drawing attention to your "countenance" (face) and not your body, but I don't really believe that because the men have hair that is dorky but not ridiculous.

They claim the dresses-only is because of some verse that says women shouldn't wear men's clothes and vice versa, but they are perfectly willing to wear unisex shirts and if you are only paying attention to their countenance, you'd see a generic polo on both men and women. I don't know why a unisex t-shirt is ok for both men and women, but pants tailored for women are somehow worse, but I don't think they really know why either.

But these are just weak excuses and they basically do it because Gothard tells them to. And Gothard tells them to to keep the women more isolated.

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That has always struck me as creepy. When I was a kid, I knew some girls who couldn't cut their hari because their father liked long hair. That also seemed really weird and icky to me.

And my father insisted us girls keep our hair short and tidy because that was how a professional woman dressed. His best salesperson was a woman and he wanted us to emulate her. Thirty-five years later and I have waist-length hair and he's OK with it because I keep it braided and out of my face (at least when I'm around him).

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My mother maintains (slightly indignantly, too) that they perm their hair because THEY like it like that and it has nothing to do with the father. She might even have denied anything having been said about the father liking it.

She also told me that the Duggars don't get paid for their show.

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She also told me that the Duggars don't get paid for their show.

I don't want to snark on anyone's mom, but JimBob NOT getting paid?? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

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I'm reminded of this article on The Marriage Bed: site.themarriagebed.com/problems/desire/how-to-get-him-to-want-sex

It mentions that "The kind of provocative clothing worn when he was in high school is likely to be particularly effective... [to arouse your husband]". Boob most likely enjoys J'Chelle's hair don't for this reason. I'm going to try not to think about why he likes this style on his daughters.

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I have a couple thoughts:

1. polo shirts for women - they don't cling to the body the way t-shirts sometimes do, therefore they're more modest than a normal t. They also have collars so they're more "formal"

2. Frumpers - They cover the whole outline of the body, thus they're "modest." Also, for the frugal families, they're quite practical - if you wear a blouse and slip underneath, you don't have to wash the jumper too often. Plus, if you wear the denim kind, they match everything and wear like iron, so you don't have to replace them too often. I also remember reading that some mothers liked them for nursing, if the armholes were big enough - I guess they'd unbutton the blouse underneath and stick baby through the armhole to nurse (I've never done it so I don't know if it works or not, but it sounds dreadful).

Also, the frumper provides a (usually thick) extra layer on top of the breasts and that keeps nipples from poking through - basically it functions the same way a cape dress does without the association with the Amish.

3. The hair. I think the Duggar hair is a Gothard thing - I know various former ATIers have mentioned that Gothard says womens' hair should be "softly curled." I think they're getting it wrong with the crunchy perm thing, but I think that's what they're trying to do.

The Bible does have a verse about women's hair, and I've seen that verse used to explain why women should never cut their hair. More liberal fundies say that it means women have to have a "feminine hair style" as defined by the Daddy Patriarch.

In my experience, once you start on the slippery slope of "modesty" as a religious practice, you end up looking like a freak. It starts out innocently enough, say with requiring knee-length skirts, and you end up in a freakin' prairie dress and headcovering.

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Honestly, I think most of the fundies ideas stem from fantasy. They romanticize eras such as the Regency, Victorian and even the American period of Little House on the Prairie. They have built up idealized images of what family, and female and male behavior is, based on romantic versions of these periods. Not the reality of these periods, but the romanticized versions that leave off all the nastier bits. To them, this is the ideal world. Funny thing is, that ideal world the yearn for never existed.

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I know that the Bible mentions modesty but I always took it to mean that women (and men) were not supposed to "show off" by how they dressed. Like, women were not supposed to wear fancy diamonds, clothing, gold, and decorations to one-up each other. To me, modesty is not just in clothing but also in how you act and speak. IMO going around bragging about how modest you are and comparing yourself to "average people" is not modest at all. I may have posted this before but it irks the living s&%$# out of me when the fundies act as if they are better than others or spiritually better off.

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I wonder what men think when they see these fundy girls and women in their frumpers, long skirts, and other attire. Wouldn't a girl wearing everyday average clothing like T shirt and jeans attract less attention than one in an odd frumper? Men, feel free to jump in and correct me if I'm wrong.

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I've heard people speculate that when a woman/girl wears frumpy clothes that don't really show off her figure, some very creepy men would assume they're 'pure' and want them all for themselves.

I think that's definitely the case for some fundy guys. That's just gross and creepy. :(

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I have a couple thoughts:

3. The hair. I think the Duggar hair is a Gothard thing - I know various former ATIers have mentioned that Gothard says womens' hair should be "softly curled." I think they're getting it wrong with the crunchy perm thing, but I think that's what they're trying to do.

I dunno, but Bill Gothard comes across like a freaking pervert. He's not married, has no kids and he gives a damn about how a woman's hair is styled? Fuck that.

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