Canadian Anti-vaxers trial and aftermath (MERGED)

[treehugger]

These whack jobs live about three hours from me.  This being rural Alberta, they actually have a lot of sympathy and support for their reprehensible neglect.  This whole situation makes me livid.  Children who have not been vaccinated probably outnumber kids who have in my part of rural Alberta, and there are constantly outbreaks of whooping cough and measles around here.  

I just don't understand the mentality of these parents though.  Of course, my kids are vaccinated, so I wouldn't get their line of thinking anyways - but if an unvaccinated kid got ill, you'd better believe I'd be super careful to monitor them and take them in the minute anything looked remotely serious.  

And I say all this as someone who uses quite a few natural remedies for things like the flu and minor sickness.  As an aside, I will take our kids into our Pediatrician for anything, because he has been known to suggest homeopathic remedies, and he avoids any drugs unless they absolutely necessary.  

But I don't know when modern medicine became something to be scorned.  I can't believe how short people's memories are.  It wasn't that long ago that people were dying en mass in North America from what are now preventable and treatable diseases. 

[Glasgowghirl]

I have used herbal teas and hot lemon for colds and have decided to look into natural remedies for my back pain as I need to wait 10 weeks to get a physio appointment but they were told by a nurse they knew it may be meningitis and didn't think to take him to hospital until he passed out no excuses for that. Herbal remedies are fine for minor problems but when it's life or death you need a doctor 

[Buzzard]

1 hour ago, Glasgowghirl said:

While I don't agree that vaccines cause autism, it's not the fact they didn't vaccinate their children that got me, to refuse any treatment to your sick child is sick and wrong. Most anti vaxxers would at least seek proper medical care they waited to long to get him treated and now they deserve to face the consequences for their actions.

I realize that I'm asking a rhetorical question, but here goes.

WHY DO THEY AVOID VACCINES THAT (THEY BELIEVE) CAUSES ILLNESS BUT ALLOWS AN EXISTING ILLNESS TO FESTER TO A POINT THAT IT MAY CAUSE DEATH?

Logic makes my head hurt.

"I will not vaccinate my child because it MAY give him/her an illness"

"I will not take my child to a doctor when they HAVE an illness because I know better than the drs."

 

[Grimalkin]

5 hours ago, polecat said:

Whoa, boy, I just want to clarify, I never said what these people did was okay. In fact, I said the exact opposite. There's a time and a place to take your kid to the doctor -- and this was definitely it. If the (actual, degreed) doctor recommends going a more natural route, like ours did, then cool. Awesome. Do that. But going to some random bozo who calls themselves a "naturo-dawktro-patho-herbaletta" who wants to rub bee snot on your kid's foot to pull the cooties out is not responsible parenting, and you deserve to face to full consequences of your actions if you're stupid/wicked enough to do it. Your belief in mumbo jumbo should not override your kid's right to a healthy life.

         Oh I didn't think that. I was saying the things you did were well known common sense remedies as opposed to trying random shit to see what happens.

        The nurse practitioner at our peds office offers natural remedy ideas. Like chewing gum with xylitol, and laying on your good ear ant placing a heating pad on the bad ear sometimes relieves earaches. Cleaning out your eye with saline At the first hint of pinkeye, worked for my daughter who kept getting it and is allergic to amoxicillin. Duct tape on planar warts has worked for us too. She offers us suggestions for next time, she always tells us to come back with concearns. Don't get me wrong she prescribes antibiotics too.

45 minutes ago, Buzzard said:

I realize that I'm asking a rhetorical question, but here goes.

WHY DO THEY AVOID VACCINES THAT (THEY BELIEVE) CAUSES ILLNESS BUT ALLOWS AN EXISTING ILLNESS TO FESTER TO A POINT THAT IT MAY CAUSE DEATH?

Logic makes my head hurt.

"I will not vaccinate my child because it MAY give him/her an illness"

"I will not take my child to a doctor when they HAVE an illness because I know better than the drs."

 

That is a very good point.

[Glasgowghirl]

1 hour ago, Buzzard said:

I realize that I'm asking a rhetorical question, but here goes.

WHY DO THEY AVOID VACCINES THAT (THEY BELIEVE) CAUSES ILLNESS BUT ALLOWS AN EXISTING ILLNESS TO FESTER TO A POINT THAT IT MAY CAUSE DEATH?

Logic makes my head hurt.

"I will not vaccinate my child because it MAY give him/her an illness"

"I will not take my child to a doctor when they HAVE an illness because I know better than the drs."

 

It shows their stupid logic, After a day or two of his condition not improving the didn't think this isn't working better take him to the doctor. 

[Hera]

I suppose the common thread in anti-vaxxing and refusing medical treatment for your kid is that you think you, a handful of celebrities and Google know better than the doctors, no matter what. 

[DaisyD]

It's one reason I absolutely love our pediatrician. She will not prescribe pharmaceuticals unless necessary. She'll also give me any otc recommendations she can whenever possible (meds are expensive!). I love natural remedies. I've even used them for mild ear infections. The difference being that I closely monitor the situation, and if it doesn't clear up in the expected time frame, or gets worse, we go to the doctor. Of course, my kids are also vaccinated, so we aren't likely to get the really scary things either. They set that child up to die.

[livinginthelight]

On 3/24/2016 at 5:50 AM, Hera said:

I suppose the common thread in anti-vaxxing and refusing medical treatment for your kid is that you think you, a handful of celebrities and Google know better than the doctors, no matter what. 

I agree but I'd go a step further. Most anti-vaxxer/doc distrusting people I know (I have one in my family, and she and her friends are very vocal on FB) have a belief that doctors have a vested interest in withholding truth from the public. That there is an active conspiracy to place financial gain above good medical care. Some doctors, according to them, are ignorant, but most are part of the "establishment" and have a vested interest in keeping their patients sick, because sickness = return visits. Oh, and they also receive payoffs from the vaccine and drug manufacturers.

Like all long-lasting conspiracy theories, there is a grain of truth in that docs do occasionally give more treatment than necessary - IMO probably to avoid negligence lawsuits. And there probably are some payoffs here and there. But I have a very hard time with the idea that doctors don't care about their patients. And the dismissal of science infuriates me.

 

[warriorblade8857]

On March 22, 2016 at 3:07 PM, Buzzard said:

I realize that I'm asking a rhetorical question, but here goes.

WHY DO THEY AVOID VACCINES THAT (THEY BELIEVE) CAUSES ILLNESS BUT ALLOWS AN EXISTING ILLNESS TO FESTER TO A POINT THAT IT MAY CAUSE DEATH?

Logic makes my head hurt.

"I will not vaccinate my child because it MAY give him/her an illness"

"I will not take my child to a doctor when they HAVE an illness because I know better than the drs."

 

The bolded pretty much sums it up their attitude.

"I will not vaccinate my child, despite all the evidence supporting it, because I know better."

"I will not take my child to the doctor, despite their years of expertise treating meningitis, because I know better."

Blind arrogance. Plain and simple.

[Shadoewolf]

 We do use honey for allergies (its believed that if you eat a spoonful of local honey every day it stops the immune response to local pollen)  and both honey and pineapple juice for coughs. VapoRub on the bottoms of the feet for colds/congestion. We treated our kitten's upper respiratory with apple cider vinegar with the 'mother'. There are situations where a more holistic approach is warranted, but not when it comes to my kids, and certainly not something like meningitis!!

[Shadoewolf]

On 3/27/2016 at 0:10 PM, livinginthelight said:

I agree but I'd go a step further. Most anti-vaxxer/doc distrusting people I know (I have one in my family, and she and her friends are very vocal on FB) have a belief that doctors have a vested interest in withholding truth from the public. That there is an active conspiracy to place financial gain above good medical care. Some doctors, according to them, are ignorant, but most are part of the "establishment" and have a vested interest in keeping their patients sick, because sickness = return visits. Oh, and they also receive payoffs from the vaccine and drug manufacturers.

Like all long-lasting conspiracy theories, there is a grain of truth in that docs do occasionally give more treatment than necessary - IMO probably to avoid negligence lawsuits. And there probably are some payoffs here and there. But I have a very hard time with the idea that doctors don't care about their patients. And the dismissal of science infuriates me.

 

Having worked as a medical assistant in a few different specialist offices, this DOES happen.  Happens in veterinary too. When I was working at the urology office it was Myribetric.  Neuro office it was Lyrica and Botox. Vet offices were Trifexis and Science Diet/Royal Canin prescription foods. Reps would come in, bring the entire office an expensive lunch. When I read the ingredients on one of the prescription pet foods and dared to question the rep about it, I got sent home for the day.  I was told later that the lead vet got kickbacks on how many bags sold in a month, hence the push. I'm hypothyroid and Synthroid is one of the most prescribed drugs on the planet. The list of side effects is horrible. But my doc had no qualms scribbling the script for me every 3 months. When I tried to ask about alternatives, I got laughed at by 4 different doctors even though SO many studies are now showing just how ineffective it is. I found an OTC alternative, learned how to order my own labs and feel MUCH better.

[bashfulpixie]

2 hours ago, Shadoewolf said:

Having worked as a medical assistant in a few different specialist offices, this DOES happen.  Happens in veterinary too. When I was working at the urology office it was Myribetric.  Neuro office it was Lyrica and Botox. Vet offices were Trifexis and Science Diet/Royal Canin prescription foods. Reps would come in, bring the entire office an expensive lunch. When I read the ingredients on one of the prescription pet foods and dared to question the rep about it, I got sent home for the day.  I was told later that the lead vet got kickbacks on how many bags sold in a month, hence the push. I'm hypothyroid and Synthroid is one of the most prescribed drugs on the planet. The list of side effects is horrible. But my doc had no qualms scribbling the script for me every 3 months. When I tried to ask about alternatives, I got laughed at by 4 different doctors even though SO many studies are now showing just how ineffective it is. I found an OTC alternative, learned how to order my own labs and feel MUCH better.

I didn't realize it was even possible to order your own labs.  How did you go about doing that?

[Shadoewolf]

You purchase the tests online, visit the lab to have them drawn (here its Quest Diagnostics and LabCorp) and then they're shown in a secure webpage.   Its awesome being able to do this because most providers will only order a TSH or a T4 level and that's what they go off of when prescribing, but the free T3 and Reverse T3 is important too.   With my Synthroid, I was always tired, hair brittle and falling out, joint pain, constipation/IBS symptoms and high cholesterol. When they increased my dose it gave me chest pains and shortness of breath, threw off my organ function so that was out.  I'm now taking NDT (naturally dessicated thyroid) plus supplements and everything comes back as it should.

[paganbaby]

8 hours ago, Shadoewolf said:

Having worked as a medical assistant in a few different specialist offices, this DOES happen.  Happens in veterinary too. When I was working at the urology office it was Myribetric.  Neuro office it was Lyrica and Botox. Vet offices were Trifexis and Science Diet/Royal Canin prescription foods. Reps would come in, bring the entire office an expensive lunch. When I read the ingredients on one of the prescription pet foods and dared to question the rep about it, I got sent home for the day.  I was told later that the lead vet got kickbacks on how many bags sold in a month, hence the push. I'm hypothyroid and Synthroid is one of the most prescribed drugs on the planet. The list of side effects is horrible. But my doc had no qualms scribbling the script for me every 3 months. When I tried to ask about alternatives, I got laughed at by 4 different doctors even though SO many studies are now showing just how ineffective it is. I found an OTC alternative, learned how to order my own labs and feel MUCH better.

 

ProPublica has a "Dollars for Docs" site where you can find out how much money which company paid to your doctor to push specific drugs.

https://projects.propublica.org/docdollars/

I'm very skeptical about certain drugs that have been prescribed for me and have no hesitation about refusing or stopping them if my reading and experience indicates taking them isn't the best choice for me. I'm just careful where I do my reading and avoid "woo" sites. I've gotten surprisingly little pushback from doctors about this.

 

[Blahblah]

9 hours ago, Shadoewolf said:

 We do use honey for allergies (its believed that if you eat a spoonful of local honey every day it stops the immune response to local pollen)  and both honey and pineapple juice for coughs. VapoRub on the bottoms of the feet for colds/congestion. We treated our kitten's upper respiratory with apple cider vinegar with the 'mother'. There are situations where a more holistic approach is warranted, but not when it comes to my kids, and certainly not something like meningitis!!

Congrats getting a kitten to swallow apple cider vinegar!!!

[IronicallyMaeve]

1 hour ago, paganbaby said:

 

ProPublica has a "Dollars for Docs" site where you can find out how much money which company paid to your doctor to push specific drugs.

https://projects.propublica.org/docdollars/

I'm very skeptical about certain drugs that have been prescribed for me and have no hesitation about refusing or stopping them if my reading and experience indicates taking them isn't the best choice for me. I'm just careful where I do my reading and avoid "woo" sites. I've gotten surprisingly little pushback from doctors about this.

 

My doctor received a grand total of $162 worth of food over 1.5 years. She's really rolling in it, lol.

[Shadoewolf]

1 hour ago, Blahblah said:

Congrats getting a kitten to swallow apple cider vinegar!!!

Wasn't too bad.....we dilute it a bit and dunk their front paws in it, Instinct has them licking it off to clean themselves. Couple of times a day for a few days and all clear.  Sneaky but it works! As most upper respiratory in cats is viral, it beat an expensive trip to the vet for antibiotics that wouldn't help. I do all the vaccines (except rabies) and dewormings for our rescues too. 

I'll have to check out that site for the kickbacks!  Edit:  The Urology office I worked at, $7,842 in one year. They had a 58% brand name percentage.  My primary care doc, (who prescribed me Maxalt before insurance would cover it, at more than $1,000 for a 10 day script) She got over $2000.  I tried looking up the vets, but no data there.

[samira_catlover]

OK, I worked for some years as a registered nurse in the US, caring with folk with developmental disabilities. (Think Down Syndrome, different levels of autism, mixed genetic issues limiting intellectual development, and other stuff.) AS A REGISTERED NURSE on a basic practice license, I could not legally order medicinals. (We got a LOT of mileage from "standing orders", renewed every 90 days, for Tylenol and comparable.)

Nonetheless, got a WHOLE lot of leverage in suggesting to staffers that someone with a sick stomach might do nicely with some ginger ale or peppermint tea (both were considered "food", and could be bought with regular house monies--no prescription needed!).  Ditto for cheese or blackberries to help bind up diarrhea, till you could get the patient to a qualified practitioner, or for hard candy (sugared or sugarfree) to help reduce a cough.

Have cheerfully and easily recommended (in non-work settings) some *very basic* herbal teas/infusions/tisanes as a STOPGAP measure, to hold things till a licensed medically-trained person could check in---but it was always with a caveat of "this is basic first aidy sort of stuff--and you NEED to get good backup ASAP."

Herbal/Grammaw's home remedies are not intrinsically bad, IF you have the good sense that the Dear Eternal gave a goat, and call for help when things MIGHT get interesting.

[DaffyDill]

On 10 March 2016 at 5:57 AM, polecat said:

When my kids had the flu last year, I kept them at home and treated them. They're normal, healthy kids without any serious health problems or breathing issues. No reasons to expect complications, so I cared for them at home with lots of fluids and lots of rest to keep them comfy. After a week or so, they still had productive coughs and low-grade fevers, so I took them to their ped. She listened to their lungs, checked them out and told me to give them a spoonful of honey a couple times a day, warm tea to loosen phlegm, keep a humidifier on and let them rest. That's it. No drugs, no complicated stuff, just natural remedies great grandma might've suggested. So we did, and they were just fine in another week.

The point is -- natural remedies totally have a place. But that doesn't negate the importance of modern medicine. And parents don't always know when to do what. Which is why when my kids didn't seem to be doing better, I took them in. See, I'm one of those conservative moms who doesn't take her kids to the doc for every fever or sniffle. That's served us well for the most part. Only one of our kids has been on abx (and then only once). Apart from eczema and allergies, my kids are pretty healthy and hearty. But I am not a doctor, and so if a sickness lingers on, my kid is not responding to conservative treatments or my kid is getting dehydrated and unable to keep fluids down/has a high fever/etc., then there's a need for a doctor. I'm not treating it at home. People need to learn that alternative/conservative care has a place -- but so does modern medicine.

This child shouldn't have suffered this long without real treatment, and he definitely shouldn't have died.

I did exactly the same as you with my boys and the various coughs and colds they had. I never really panicked or rushed them to the doctor, just kept an eye on their temps, and made sure they had plenty of fluids and rest. However, a couple of years ago, when my sport loving, ridiculously healthy then 18 y/o son came to be complaining of severe chest pains, heart palpitations and shortness of breath I raced him to the ER as quickly as I could. 

Lucky I did because he had bacterial pericarditis, an infection in the membrane surrounding his heart. If left untreated, the infection could have spread throughout his body, and his heart could have been permanently scarred. He was transferred from our local hospital to the nearest major one with a cardiac ward, and it was the scariest thing ever.

https://www.betterhealth.vic.gov.au/health/conditionsandtreatments/pericarditis

All these elderly cardiac patients in his ward, most of whom were quite ill, were quite amused to see this tanned, fit young kid be brought in. He was fine after 24 hours, and a ECG several weeks later showed no damage.

You don't need to hurry to a doctor overtime your child gets ill, but if they are still ill, or getting worse when they ought to be recovering from something simple like a cold, then off you go IMHO. Home remedies can be wonderful things, but not to treat meningitis.

[Snarkylark]

On April 3, 2016 at 3:12 PM, Shadoewolf said:

Having worked as a medical assistant in a few different specialist offices, this DOES happen.  Happens in veterinary too. When I was working at the urology office it was Myribetric.  Neuro office it was Lyrica and Botox. Vet offices were Trifexis and Science Diet/Royal Canin prescription foods. Reps would come in, bring the entire office an expensive lunch. When I read the ingredients on one of the prescription pet foods and dared to question the rep about it, I got sent home for the day.  I was told later that the lead vet got kickbacks on how many bags sold in a month, hence the push. I'm hypothyroid and Synthroid is one of the most prescribed drugs on the planet. The list of side effects is horrible. But my doc had no qualms scribbling the script for me every 3 months. When I tried to ask about alternatives, I got laughed at by 4 different doctors even though SO many studies are now showing just how ineffective it is. I found an OTC alternative, learned how to order my own labs and feel MUCH better.

Very true about the pet food! SD is junk!! 

I am also hypothyroid. Doc wanted to scribble a rx for Synthroid w/o any other labs. I found a functional med dr that orders all the right labs. I also take NDT and compounded t3. 

Fwiw, my hospital does order all staff to have annual flu shots and the (not well known) reason is that they lose a percentage of CMS reimbursement if hospital wide vax rate is less than 90-95%. Can't remember the exact number. But there is a financial benefit involved in that case. 

[treehugger]

The parents have been convicted.  

Quote

David Stephan, 32, and Collet Stephan, 36, were charged a year after their nearly 19-month-old son Ezekiel died in March 2012, under Section 215 of the Criminal Code which deals with "failing to provide the necessaries of life."

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/meningitis-trial-verdict-1.3552941

I am very glad to hear that.  But the comments are mind-blowing.  Why, oh why, do I live in an area so full of willfully ignorant people!?!?

[violynn]

11 minutes ago, treehugger said:

The parents have been convicted.  

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/meningitis-trial-verdict-1.3552941

I am very glad to hear that.  But the comments are mind-blowing.  Why, oh why, do I live in an area so full of willfully ignorant people!?!?

SO glad they were convicted.

[Howl]

In this case, it seems the right verdict.  Are there other children and what will happen to them?  I hope they receive prison time. 

[Buzzard]

3 minutes ago, Howl said:

In this case, it seems the right verdict.  Are there other children and what will happen to them?  I hope they receive prison time. 

How can they NOT receive prison time?  The child is dead because of their asshattery.  The court needs to send a message to other idiots out there!

[Desertrose]

I worked in a nursing home, a drug rep came in trying to push a new drug to help with constipation.  The medical director asked her what this drug did that prune juice couldnt do.  He then asked her what which insurances covered it. She left,pissed. The doctor then said it was super expensive,  and that insurances didnt cover it.   He was great.