Canadian Anti-vaxers trial and aftermath (MERGED)

[Buzzard]

http://deadstate.org/trial-begins-for-anti-vaxxer-parents-who-treated-dead-sons-meningitis-with-maple-syrup-and-olive-leaf-extract/

I couldnt find where this had been posted before.  Apparently they treated their son's meningitis by giving their 19 month old various herbs and stuff for weeks until he stopped breathing, later dying in the hospital.

They are charged with failing to provide necessities for life.  Apparently they run some form of a nutritional supplement company called "truehope nutritional support."

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2013/02/14/david-stephan-collet-stephan-child-death_n_2689257.html

Um...

Quote

Anthony Stephan knew that violent behaviour in hogs was mitigated well with mineral supplements, so he and business partner David Hardy formulated a human version.

 

[Cleopatra7]

I love how the parents are complaining that "their approach to health should be respected." This is pure negligence, plain and simple, and the other children should be taken away ASAP.

[VelociRapture]

I really hate stories like this. Really hate them.

I understand wanting to explore alternative treatments to traditional medicine. If a competent adult decides to decline medical attention in favor of other options that's their right.

But when kids are involved it's a totally different matter. Kids rely on their parents and guardians for pretty much everything. Getting proper medical treatment in addition to pursuing alternative treatments - that are approved by the Doctor - is one thing. That's fine. But flat out refusing medical treatment for your baby and refusing to call for help until they stop fucking breathing?!?!!?

I hate people. I really fucking hate people.

[Jingerbread]

Alternative things can be great!  But when something is serious and aggressive, no.  This isn't honey on a big cut.  Meningitis gets very bad very, very fast.  How can people watch a kid get worse and worse and do nothing?

[happy atheist]

They tried to treat meningitis with water with a little maple syrup. I mean, the fuck?

[seasonsoflife]

"The Stephans fed their son home remedies such as, but not limited to, maple syrup, frozen berries, hot peppers, mashed onions, and ginger root instead of taking the boy to the hospital:"

Seriously? Those are not remedies, that is pretty much a list of foods I eat on any given day.

What is wrong with these people?

[housetyrell]

As a pediatric nurse, this horrifies me. I've seen a lot of holistic/alternative approaches to medicine, and while they definitely have some benefits, if a child is that severely ill, then they also need modern medical therapy. I've taken care of quite a few Amish babies, and their parents frequently want us to supplement their child's care with herbal supplements and treatments. As long as the herbal supplements are not harmful, or don't have negative interactions with their medical regimen, then we allow their child to still receive them. That doesn't mean that we also won't provide antibiotic therapy and whatever other therapies the child needs to live. I just wish that people who are so anti-medicine realized that sometimes it's absolutely necessary. 

Also, I feel like the people that sell some of these "herbal remedies" are just like those medieval peddlers who would sell customers products something that was total shit. It makes me sad that people actually believe these crazy remedies work.

[Jingerbread]

2 hours ago, housetyrell said:

Also, I feel like the people that sell some of these "herbal remedies" are just like those medieval peddlers who would sell customers products something that was total shit. It makes me sad that people actually believe these crazy remedies work.

doTerra or Young Living had claims that their oils cured ebola.  Now I'm a crunchy parent and believe in the power of herbs and other alternatives to western medicine, but there are limits to what holistic can do, and holistic doesn't cure ebola!  I had to block a few people on my Facebook page who swore that it was all nothing more than the feds trying to shut down their precious oil company at the request of the medical establishment.

[Terrie]

Quote

The Stephans run a nutritional supplements company called Truehope Nutritional Support Inc. out of Raymond, Alta.

Health Canada launched an unsuccessful court case in 2004 to try to stop the distribution of the company’s supplement Empowerplus — a product the company claims can manage mental illnesses such as bipolar disorder — and also issued warnings about it.

Ugh. Reading about it at http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2016/03/09/another-child-dead-from-quackery/. This nonsense makes me so angry.

[AmazonGrace]

The naturopath should be charged for something as well.

 

Quote

Collet said she and David visited a naturopathic doctor in Lethbridge who gave them a treatment for viral meningitis, but never actually examined Ezekiel.

 

[FundieFarmer]

I'm all for ayurvedic medicine, but like @Jingerbread, believe it has limits. I also have a bucket of medical problems that can't be fixed with herbs and oils, so my care team and I have to be BFF. But yes. If fennel will do it for a stomach ache, I'm so there. 

If you're an adult and you want to refuse treatment because you're fucking tired of going through the ringer, fine. Honestly, I get that. But denying it to a child is horrible and inexcusable. I agree that the naturopathic doctor should also be charged, and that these companies (including the parents') should be required to share a disclaimer on their company website that at some point you may need to seek actual medical treatment. Geez. 

[Buzzard]

If your BABY is sick for a week you take it to the dr.  You want to give him some oil or whatever for the first day or two, I'll cut you some slack.  WHEN YOUR BABY IS SICK FOR A WEEK its time to seek help from someone with a degree.

I really hope these people go to prison.

[polecat]

When my kids had the flu last year, I kept them at home and treated them. They're normal, healthy kids without any serious health problems or breathing issues. No reasons to expect complications, so I cared for them at home with lots of fluids and lots of rest to keep them comfy. After a week or so, they still had productive coughs and low-grade fevers, so I took them to their ped. She listened to their lungs, checked them out and told me to give them a spoonful of honey a couple times a day, warm tea to loosen phlegm, keep a humidifier on and let them rest. That's it. No drugs, no complicated stuff, just natural remedies great grandma might've suggested. So we did, and they were just fine in another week.

The point is -- natural remedies totally have a place. But that doesn't negate the importance of modern medicine. And parents don't always know when to do what. Which is why when my kids didn't seem to be doing better, I took them in. See, I'm one of those conservative moms who doesn't take her kids to the doc for every fever or sniffle. That's served us well for the most part. Only one of our kids has been on abx (and then only once). Apart from eczema and allergies, my kids are pretty healthy and hearty. But I am not a doctor, and so if a sickness lingers on, my kid is not responding to conservative treatments or my kid is getting dehydrated and unable to keep fluids down/has a high fever/etc., then there's a need for a doctor. I'm not treating it at home. People need to learn that alternative/conservative care has a place -- but so does modern medicine.

This child shouldn't have suffered this long without real treatment, and he definitely shouldn't have died.

[LittleSpouseOnThePrairie]

Ok so here's my rant: When I was in high school my gorgeous, healthy mother came down with viral meningitis, and even with two weeks of hospital care she nearly died. It's no joke and the symptoms are extremely frightening. Growing up my family has been into using herbal & holistic treatments for minor things like colds, tummy aches and whatnot, but when an illness is atypical we don't mess around. It didn't take long to see that what she had was something really bad, so my Dad took her straight to the E.R. 

Some things just require medical care, and we live in an age where modern medicine exists, and there have been advancements in medicine for this very reason. And that's the thing, when something progresses rather than subsides during your home remedy treatment, then you need professional intervention - and seeking it does not mean that you are denouncing herbal or holistic practices. I fear that this family did not want to concede that their natural treatment wasn't working, and now they have paid the ultimate price.

[salex]

I have a brother in law who may be slowly killing himself using supplements.... without going into detail, he is buying bulk supplied from china, mixing them himself and upping his doses and when his physicians (Who he's been going to, one after another for about 3 years for some pretty serious issues) suggest he stop taking the supplements, he says no... that is all that is keeping him alive.)  IF you feel worse when you come off of something, often that is called "Withdrawl"  If he were my husband, I'd have them detox him in the hospital and see what is going on. 

He is to the point that doctors tell him "we can't help you at this point" and "We can't take you on as a patient."

Meanwhile, He is upping his doses, chasing symptoms and has a mini lab he cooks up meds in his kitchen.

He also feeds my sister in law a variety of supplements, she takes about 100 pills a day, last I knew. 

I mentioned that my doctors told me last year, when they suggested B6 to avoid chemo related neuropathy, not to take too much, or it can give you neuropathy, hoping they might reconsider continuing to up their doses. 

Last year, I kept getting updates that molasses and soda cured cancer, better than chemo.  My sisters told me they would come up and forcibly take me to chemo if I tried that "cure" instead....  We are a family who has had very good results with chemo, when the cancer is caught very early.

[anjulibai]

There are many alternative treatments out there that can be helpful, but yeah, it has it's limits. Especially with infections. Acupuncture, for example, is very good for those that don't deal with even mild pain medications well, and is very relaxing. Helped my gramma after her masectomy when she had pain in her arm and shoulder. But it can't cure any of the many things some proponents claim. 

These folks just sound loony toons. I can't imagine not taking my lethargic, not breathing well son to the doctor immediately.

[Buzzard]

Amazingly, they actually may have known it was meningitis

http://www.ottawacitizen.com/health/medical+examiner+testifies+cause+toddlers+death+meningitis/11776812/story.html

Quote

The couple did seek advice from a friend, who is a registered nurse and suggested the child could have viral meningitis. She recommended Collet take Ezekiel to a medical doctor.

Collet researched viral meningitis on an online website, which indicated most people, even without specific therapy, recover from less severe form of meningitis.

Because Dr. Google is clearly better than anyone with an actual degree.

[Hera]

6 minutes ago, Buzzard said:

Amazingly, they actually may have known it was meningitis

http://www.ottawacitizen.com/health/medical+examiner+testifies+cause+toddlers+death+meningitis/11776812/story.html

Because Dr. Google is clearly better than anyone with an actual degree.

I cannot even imagine this. My *dog* skips a meal and I take her to the vet.

[Buzzard]

1 minute ago, Hera said:

I cannot even imagine this. My *dog* skips a meal and I take her to the vet.

I MIGHT google it for a little while, but I would atleast call the vet and ask if I should bring him in

[Grimalkin]

On March 9, 2016 at 0:57 PM, polecat said:

When my kids had the flu last year, I kept them at home and treated them. They're normal, healthy kids without any serious health problems or breathing issues. No reasons to expect complications, so I cared for them at home with lots of fluids and lots of rest to keep them comfy. After a week or so, they still had productive coughs and low-grade fevers, so I took them to their ped. She listened to their lungs, checked them out and told me to give them a spoonful of honey a couple times a day, warm tea to loosen phlegm, keep a humidifier on and let them rest. That's it. No drugs, no complicated stuff, just natural remedies great grandma might've suggested. So we did, and they were just fine in another week.

The point is -- natural remedies totally have a place. But that doesn't negate the importance of modern medicine. And parents don't always know when to do what. Which is why when my kids didn't seem to be doing better, I took them in. See, I'm one of those conservative moms who doesn't take her kids to the doc for every fever or sniffle. That's served us well for the most part. Only one of our kids has been on abx (and then only once). Apart from eczema and allergies, my kids are pretty healthy and hearty. But I am not a doctor, and so if a sickness lingers on, my kid is not responding to conservative treatments or my kid is getting dehydrated and unable to keep fluids down/has a high fever/etc., then there's a need for a doctor. I'm not treating it at home. People need to learn that alternative/conservative care has a place -- but so does modern medicine.

This child shouldn't have suffered this long without real treatment, and he definitely shouldn't have died.

      Well at least those are actual tried and true natural remedies! Maple syrup and fucking onions?!? They are just trying random things. "Hey, let's try the plant water that's collected in the dish under it!"

[Grimalkin]

I just looked it up. Onions are considered to be a "powerful antibiotic" so its all good guys. Placing cut up onions around a person with a sinus infection is like a miracle cure! I wonder if Lori Alexander is their mentor.

[polecat]

14 hours ago, Grimalkin said:

      Well at least those are actual tried and true natural remedies! Maple syrup and fucking onions?!? They are just trying random things. "Hey, let's try the plant water that's collected in the dish under it!"

Whoa, boy, I just want to clarify, I never said what these people did was okay. In fact, I said the exact opposite. There's a time and a place to take your kid to the doctor -- and this was definitely it. If the (actual, degreed) doctor recommends going a more natural route, like ours did, then cool. Awesome. Do that. But going to some random bozo who calls themselves a "naturo-dawktro-patho-herbaletta" who wants to rub bee snot on your kid's foot to pull the cooties out is not responsible parenting, and you deserve to face to full consequences of your actions if you're stupid/wicked enough to do it. Your belief in mumbo jumbo should not override your kid's right to a healthy life.

[nelliebelle1197]

On 3/9/2016 at 1:13 PM, Buzzard said:

If your BABY is sick for a week you take it to the dr.  You want to give him some oil or whatever for the first day or two, I'll cut you some slack.  WHEN YOUR BABY IS SICK FOR A WEEK its time to seek help from someone with a degree.

I really hope these people go to prison.

I wish you were the prosecutor.

7 minutes ago, polecat said:

Whoa, boy, I just want to clarify, I never said what these people did was okay. In fact, I said the exact opposite. There's a time and a place to take your kid to the doctor -- and this was definitely it. If the (actual, degreed) doctor recommends going a more natural route, like ours did, then cool. Awesome. Do that. But going to some random bozo who calls themselves a "naturo-dawktro-patho-herbaletta" who wants to rub bee snot on your kid's foot to pull the cooties out is not responsible parenting, and you deserve to face to full consequences of your actions if you're stupid/wicked enough to do it. Your belief in mumbo jumbo should not override your kid's right to a healthy life.

I think she knows that and was just being sarcastic! That is how I read it- the doctor told you to give honey, so you did,

[tropaka]

the Naturopath that these morons called testified that they'd contacted her by phone and she'd instructed them to take the child to the ER. 

[Glasgowghirl]

While I don't agree that vaccines cause autism, it's not the fact they didn't vaccinate their children that got me, to refuse any treatment to your sick child is sick and wrong. Most anti vaxxers would at least seek proper medical care they waited to long to get him treated and now they deserve to face the consequences for their actions.