FLDS Leaders indicted

[SpoonfulOSugar]

Nine of 11 have now been taken into custody:

http://www.sltrib.com/news/3586515-155/9-of-11-indicted-flds-have

Quote

As of Friday afternoon, only Kimball Barlow and Rulon Barlow were still being sought by law enforcement.

Also, more about the South Dakota compound:

http://www.sltrib.com/blogs/polygamy/3584512-155/federal-arrests-reveal-south-dakota-polygamist

[accountingstar]

Yahoo News also has a story about the South Dakota Compound: http://news.yahoo.com/federal-arrests-reveal-south-dakota-polygamist-sect-details-224350765.html

Highlights of the Article:

Quote

But court documents say sect members living in the South Dakota compound were prohibited from using food stamps while living there, potentially part of the church leadership's efforts to keep secret their property near Pringle, population 111. Known to the faithful as "R23," the group started work on the compound there over a decade ago.

Only about 30 miles from the popular tourist attraction of Mount Rushmore, the church's 140-acre South Dakota property sits along a gravel road secluded by tall pine trees and a recently completed privacy fence. A roving security force of two was bolstered by two or three guards stationed inside the compound's watch tower, a steel-enforced octagonal structure manned 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, according to an FBI report on a 2014 interview with Sam Steed.

Cell phone batteries had to be removed while on the property. The presiding bishop carried a phone but had to leave to use it, Steed told the FBI.

The sect in 2011 wanted to build a temple on the South Dakota property, but leaders told the Custer County planning commission that the structure was going to be a storage building. The project was scrapped when leaders ran out of money, according to Steed.

It sounds worse than being in prison. 

[Kittikatz]

Just out of curiosity, how on earth does this sort of group get legal approvals to build this kind of compound? Are the planning rules so different in rural US? Or am i missing something? 

Here, we need an approved permit to build even a 4' tall fence/2' tall deck and any building or excavations need to get a permit and be built off of approved plans, drafted by people or companies with the correct certifications. Neighbours have a right to appeal anything that is slightly outside the permitted use or zoning for the area; as well, they may appeal any permits issued using the city planners discretionary powers. Appeals are made to quasijudicial boards set up for ths purpose, and those rulings can be appealed to the provincial court of appeal. City or town  planners and municipal building inspectors have to confirm the as built and inspect and approve all the plumbing/electrical/gas stuff every step of the construction. At the end, some sort of occupancy permit is granted that allows the use of the structure. Failure to comply means that the municipality can demolish or order demolished, any construction that is outside the permit or not on the apporved plans. I'm sure there are cases where steps are missed or slight discrrpencies are ignored, or where some rural areas may not be totally dilligent about enforcing planning standards for unoccupied buildings without electricity or water hook ups such as sheds/granaries, but I cannot imagine anyone being allowed to build something like these walled compounds the FLDS seem to like so much. 

Also, most municipalities have aerial photographs taken every year or two and scanned through with a computer program to looking for new structures or additions. If they see construction that no permit was granted, you can expect an inspection from property tax assessment and, usually, building inspectors. So, there isn't any way someone could secretly build this kind of thing either. 

Sorry for the long post, this is just strange to me.

[Jingerbread]

On 2/24/2016 at 8:17 AM, enigmata said:

I don't think it is the fact that they claim that they are unmarried but that they claim there is no man on the scene so are claiming as though they are single parents when there is a Father.

Have you ever signed up as an unmarried woman?  You are legally and technically a single mother if you aren't married.  They ask the father's info, whether you are married or single ("shacking up" isn't a thing).  If you're married, his income counts as yours.  If you're single, they'll look into getting a child support order.

It's legal and correct for the legally single women to mark that they are single mothers.  It's illegal and incorrect only if they say they have no idea who the father could be or where he is if they really know.

On 2/24/2016 at 8:54 AM, daisyd681 said:

They ask about number of people living in the household and the income of those people. Even if they all live together, and claim the income of everyone there, they probably still qualify in this case. I believe that they are not paid so much as "provided for" by the church for the most part.

This is wrong.  It happens, but it's wrong.  I once rented a room in my house to a single mother and her two children, and my personal income disqualified her from food stamps.  My personal income wasn't enough to feed three more mouths, and I was renting out that room to make ends meet as it was.  She ended up having to move.

On the other end, a good fiend of mine rented a room with her son, and it was the same situation, only all the rooms in the house she was renting out of were rented to others, and the owner lived elsewhere.  The total income of the people in the other rooms was too much for her to qualify.  No one wanted to be financially on the hook for a woman and baby by virtue of living under the same room.  She reapplied and claimed a unit number, and qualified that way, even though it was fraud.  Neither she nor I blame those other housemates for not supporting her and her son, but we do blame a system that doesn't account for how poor people often have to live with other people, and that those other people often aren't willing to support someone who may ony be under the same roof as a way to make the housing payment.

[Jingerbread]

On 2/24/2016 at 8:55 AM, Whoosh said:

In the FLDS situation, I am not sure exactly what happens in terms of exactly what questions are asked and exactly what the laws are, but it is clearly in violation of the spirit of the policy behind food stamps to have wives 2 through 30 reporting to in essence be single mothers entirely on their own with no one who is helping to support and raise the children - they absolutely are not.  Policy wise, those fathers should be doing what is necessary to put food on the table for their children.  If they refuse to, the first step should not be resorting to food stamps but rather to assist the mother in obtaining the child support from the dead beat dad that she is entitled to under the law.  

Unfortunately, there are no laws requiring deadbeats to work.  That violates human rights to force someone to work.  You've got an absolute right to have kids, and you have an absolute right to not work.  So that deadbeat can go right on having babies, and the only way he could be nailed is if an order was issued for support based on minimum wage (let's be generous and pay him $10/hr to sit there with his thumb up his ass: that's $1720/mo before taxes at 40 hours a week for 4.3 weeks a month, and let's be magnanimous and hold absolutely no taxes, and then take half his income for support, and divide that 860 by 30, and we have $28 per child per month), and he still refused to get a job to follow the payments ordered, but the jail time isn't very long, and the system knows when they've got a lot cause on their hands since, even if he got $10 an hour, the kids still need food stamps since $26 doesn't feed a child for a month.  Why waste the money jailing the deadbeat when the kids need help no matter what?  Here, Mothers, take these food stamp cards, and god speed.

Sometimes I really do with we could force sterilization on people.  I expect a dog-pile, but fuckers who do what those "men" do, and leave children destitute just to show their penises work, are worthless sacks of shit who shouldn't be allowed to procreate anymore.  In the absence of sterilization, I wish they'd be jailed until they're shooting dust.

[Whoosh]

14 minutes ago, Jingerbread said:

Unfortunately, there are no laws requiring deadbeats to work.

Sorry I wasn't clear, this wasn't my point but it does read that way perhaps.  I am pretty sure we agree about what is really going on here with the FLDS.

These "fathers" have children with multiple women.  They ALSO control the whole group in such a way that the same men who are permitted to breed in this manner wind up with the vast majority of the wealth and resources in the community (which they then dole out or not as they see fit).  What we know about this particular group is that these men are indeed seen as the fathers of those children in every sense of the word - they just bilk the system in order to have "the man" put food on the table for their kids.  THEN, they unlawfully take the federal money that was given expressly for the purpose of putting food on the table for these kids for themselves and do whatever the fuck they want.  They are not honest about the fact that there is a father (often with DEEP pockets in the picture).  

I am not much about going after men who have no assets or income as deadbeats.  These men are often WEALTHY men who are deadbeat dads.  They have all kinds of streams of income (including illegal food stamp revenue) coming in.  No one would need to force Lyle Jeffs or any man like him to get a job in order to stop this SNAP fraud.

Again, sorry I was unclear and from what I have read from you I think we basically agree.

ETA - to be totally clear I agree that they look at "household" income.  However, they also look at what the father or others are contributing to the welfare of the child.  As an example, if it were known that Charlie Sheen had 10 children out of wedlock and was acting as their father but not living under the same roof with them and the mothers, the spirit of the SNAP program would say that those kids should be fed by Charlie Sheen, not the average taxpayer via the SNAP program.

[Shoobydoo]

On 2/24/2016 at 11:39 AM, countressrascal said:

Food stamp fraud has been happening in FLDS land for years and it is not only food stamps but it is all government benefits. It is called "Bleed the Beast". The best one that I know a lot about is moving from UT to AZ if they have a special need child because the medical benefits in AZ are much better and closer. That is why they build the Birthing Center on the AZ side. They have a higher birth rate of special need children than a normal community part of the problem is a neurological genetic issue that both founding families had which leads to a number of congenital issues.

I am waiting for the IRS to get involved.

Do you know of any good articles/blog posts that address this? Thanks.

[samurai_sarah]

27 minutes ago, Shoobydoo said:

Do you know of any good articles/blog posts that address this? Thanks.

Here's just one example: http://www.deseretnews.com/article/635182923/Birth-defect-is-plaguing-children-in-FLDS-towns.html?pg=all

Or: http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-mormons-genes-idUSN0727298120070614

Fumarase deficiency is very rare, so the high occurrence in the FLDS community is something of an anomaly. 

[Shoobydoo]

@samurai_sarah Thanks!

[SpoonfulOSugar]

Here's a very distressing followup story:

http://www.sltrib.com/news/3586070-155/food-stamp-case-sparks-fear-for

[Howl]

This is very, very bad.  

Single moms with a bazillion kids have some hard decisions to make.  If they keep their food stamps and  go elsewhere for food, they could lose their standing in the church.  I have no doubt that some of these people would literally starve before disobeying Warren Jeffs and the church.  

FLDS in Hildale/Colorado City has turned into a third-world country ruled by a corrupt kleptocracy. 

 

 

 

[DaisyD]

It is really sad. My only hope is that this wakes up as many people as possible. There will likely still be some holdouts, but watching their children get hungrier and hungrier will hopefully get most of them moving. The other alternative is that whoever is in charge now will allow them to go somewhere else for food. This is going to be really hard for them.

[Whoosh]

This is going to be just remarkably hard on the people involved and it is likely going to be very hard to read about all the fallout.  I think it is really important to remember that the adults involved here have been harming the children and violating the law.  The Federal government did not go to all of this effort to indict 11 people just so that the community can turn around and illegally funnel taxpayer money in the form of SNAP benefits to a newly installed FLDS leadership, nor are the officials involved going to allow parents to deprive their children of food if they can stop it.

The question of is this person a victim or a co-conspirator/complicit in the unlawful or harmful behavior isn't at all unique to the FLDS situation.  I tend to be probably too soft-hearted in terms of feeling that people raised in a toxic cult environment like this are not fully responsible for their actions, but at the same time they need to be prevented from causing further harm and held accountable for their past actions to an appropriate extent.  

[Quivering Uterus]

This is only the tip of a titanic iceberg. I feel the arrests were made to make top individuals squeal, and then everything is going to come out. Sorta like being pulled over for a low tire - they (the feds ) want them for so much more.

Then as the members awake they will only slowly feel changes and acceptable differences. It can go real good, or real bad rather quickly. Some, even most members, of those communities won't even pick up a basket of food off their own porch, they are that scared. They will not accept help, especially from apostates, lest they will become one. They are scared witt-less.

[countressrascal]

8 minutes ago, Quivering Uterus said:

This is only the tip of a titanic iceberg. I feel the arrests were made to make top individuals squeal, and then everything is going to come out. Sorta like being pulled over for a low tire - they (the feds ) want them for so much more.

Then as the members awake they will only slowly feel changes and acceptable differences. It can go real good, or real bad rather quickly. Some, even most members, of those communities won't even pick up a basket of food off their own porch, they are that scared. They will not accept help, especially from apostates, lest they will become one. They are scared witt-less.

That is partly true-members that have special needs or medically fragile children will pick up food from community food banks if they are located in or near medical centers. From my experience they will also take food for either sister wives or sisters then they will put it in pillow cases or wrap it with sheets, blankets or towels to get it back into town. Anyone that deals with them understand the situation, it has been going on since Warren Jeff has been on the run and continues. 

[Howl]

On 2/28/2016 at 11:47 AM, SpoonfulOSugar said:

Here's a very distressing followup story:

http://www.sltrib.com/news/3586070-155/food-stamp-case-sparks-fear-for

One of the most distressing aspects of this story is that the elites are getting all of the food they need, to the detriment of their unfortunate co-religionists. People are hungry and they just don't care.  

[meda]

Both of these municipalities were prosecuted by the Federal Justice department and convicted in aJury trial for discriminating against non-FLDS in housing, utility hookups, and other municipal services. Apparently the town governments and police & emergency serviced are run and staffed by FLDS for FLDS. There was another article that discussed possible police harassment of non FLDS in those communities, but this article focused on other issues. I am shocked (not) that defense counsel for the towns made arguements and closing statements to the jury asking them to uphold "religious freedom" and claiming the FLDS were the ones being discriminated against. 

 

http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/phoenix/2016/03/07/colorado-city-hildale-flds-polygamous-trial-verdict/81449602/

[samira_catlover]

Housing? Utility hookups?  Those are like, wayyyyy worldly, and totes not suitable for Gentiles (non-LDS types)!

(I must confess, in interest of full disclosure: whenever I see a FLDS community area clobbered in a legal action----well, I cheer.)

You want to be poly-whatever?--fine. I know (in Real Life) a nice chunk of poly people who somehow manage to provide adequately for minors and who don't Bleed the Beast with taking welfare/similar payments. 

Your (complex) household, your (it's complicated) sex life?--have at it, as long as you are not expecting me to cover a lot of your bills.

 

[apandaaries]

22 minutes ago, samira_catlover said:

Housing? Utility hookups?  Those are like, wayyyyy worldly, and totes not suitable for Gentiles (non-LDS types)!

(I must confess, in interest of full disclosure: whenever I see a FLDS community area clobbered in a legal action----well, I cheer.)

You want to be poly-whatever?--fine. I know (in Real Life) a nice chunk of poly people who somehow manage to provide adequately for minors and who don't Bleed the Beast with taking welfare/similar payments. 

Your (complex) household, your (it's complicated) sex life?--have at it, as long as you are not expecting me to cover a lot of your bills.

 

And so long as young children aren't indoctrinated into a sick theology which tells them that if they fail to replicate their parents' lifestyle, they will be doomed to Outer Darkness for all eternity.  Polyamory doesn't bug me, but seeing those children brainwashed, beaten and starved really angers me...especially when their lifestyle is buoyed and supported by dollars culled from a government they purport to detest and despise. 

[DaisyD]

I have no issue with polygamy among consenting adults. The child brides are only a part of the problem with this group. By far the most upsetting and disturbing part, but only a part.

[SpoonfulOSugar]

Reading the stories about Short Creek, it appears to me to be much more than just about polygamy.  It's a caste system, where those at the top are dictatorial and those at the bottom are simply commodities.  It's not just about the imbalance between men and women, but also between the "haves" and "have nots."

I want the government to do everything in their power to break this criminal conspiracy up, but I hope they also find ways to intervene for those who have been abused for years and years.  I'm not convinced we've done our utmost in that regard - but I'm a long way away and it's easy to armchair quarterback.

[SpoonfulOSugar]

Here's the SL Trib story about yesterday's verdict:

http://www.sltrib.com/news/3629859-156/polygamous-towns-in-utah-and-arizona

It points out that in addition to whatever the judge rules as remedies for this civil suit, they still also have to face the DoL issue with the pecan farm, and then there's the food stamp case (and Lyle Jeffs gets to stay in jail, too!)

It does seem like moving on them on all fronts is the new plan.  

[SpoonfulOSugar]

Follow-up from the St. George paper on the civil rights case:  

http://www.thespectrum.com/story/news/2016/03/09/polygamous-community-residents-await-ruling-marshals/81563144/

I really hope they disband all law enforcement and turn those responsibilities over to an outside party for a set period.

Also would like the city government to be re-organized.

[zee_four]

On 2/24/2016 at 6:49 PM, violynn said:

@Whoosh, exactly how much will the feds be able to investigate?  If the charges are fs fraud, beyond going into the financials of the people charged, won't they be limited to only records and interviews of those charged?   They can't go in and start interviewing the children on whether they are abused, or going through marriage licenses of everyone in the compound.  How much scope do these indicitements give?

At the very least they could prove statutory rape, incest, etc. just from the SNAP information. See which women were declaring which dependent children for how long, when former dependents started declaring their own dependents, etc. If any of that is incriminating the only defense would be to claim the information was inaccurate but by doing such they would set themselves up for an easily substantiated federal/state felony charge of knowingly providing false information to recieve benefits or something similar. Please correct me if I'm mistaken especially if anyone has more expertise than i do. My speculation comes from a mix of recieving. SNAP benefits when i was disabed and having gone to law school in CO where laws are generally more similar to UT than laws in statesoutside the Mountain/Interior West. But I've never practiced.

[zee_four]

On 3/8/2016 at 4:48 AM, meda said:

Both of these municipalities were prosecuted by the Federal Justice department and convicted in aJury trial for discriminating against non-FLDS in housing, utility hookups, and other municipal services. Apparently the town governments and police & emergency serviced are run and staffed by FLDS for FLDS. There was another article that discussed possible police harassment of non FLDS in those communities, but this article focused on other issues. I am shocked (not) that defense counsel for the towns made arguements and closing statements to the jury asking them to uphold "religious freedom" and claiming the FLDS were the ones being discriminated against. 

 

http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/phoenix/2016/03/07/colorado-city-hildale-flds-polygamous-trial-verdict/81449602/

Reminds me a bit of the Hatzalah (sp?) chasidic ambulence service cases in NY, a private group providing service and being accused of discriminating on religious grounds. However Utah blurs the state church line more than NY but usually manage to just toe the line legally. Everything from the LDS property monopoly in many places to many public schools allowing dedicated time during the school day for LDS youth programs (not places like PC but like Provo and of course the few non LDS students aren't forced).

 

I also know the state is generally reluctant to take on the FLDS not just because the crazy Old West laws help the FLDS but mainstream Mormons don't want to draw attention especially national to them in fear that all their efforts to differentiate from their shared polygamous origins will be pushed back.