Josh Duggar part 12 - Everyone has unclean hands...Go wash!

[enine]

The thing about Josh is.. I think he kind of really believes in all the sh*t he's talking about. I think he believes in Gothard and he believes that men are superior to women, he believes porn is sin, he believes you should stay with your wife no matter what.

I recently read an interview with a former fundamentalist muslim, who said he jerked off twice a day, even though quran forbits it. He said all his fundamentalist friends did as well. They knew it was wrong, felt bad about it, swore to god they'd never do it again, and the next day: Everything started from the beginning.

I believe that's what's going to happen to Josh as well. He'll promise never to look at porn again, he'll be nice to Anna for a week or two, he won't look at porn for a week or two, no adultery, no nothing. He'll be the good husband. Than, he will "sin" again. He will look at porn, he will cheat on his wife, he will be a shitty husband in general. There will be a big fight. Both between Anna and him and between Boob and him. He will promise, he'll never do it again. He will be good for a week or two... And it will go on like this forever. Or at leasts for a couple of years.

I've seen this habit on so many people in shitty relationships or with jobs/roommates/whatevers they don't like. Nothing ever changes. You have to be a strong person to change a life that sucks. Josh isn't a strong person. He's smug and a dickhead, he's so full of the weird believes his father told him, that he's never going to chance. I guess he'd rather shame Anna for being a bad wife than admitting his beliefs are idiotic.

[twinmama]

15 hours ago, luv2laugh said:

Well now that this is trending on Facebook, she's making Josh look as rosy and angelic as ever. Just look at the majority of the comments that are about supporting him now. Congratulations, Danica, you have now just made Josh Duggar's a** look sweeter than Mother Theresa. This exactly what TLC needed.

Well it is a GOOD thing that he did not actually abuse someone like that this time. And while he may not have hurt Danica, he still cheated on his wife and abused his sisters years ago. If this makes him look good for a bit so be it, but the truth should be out there. He's done plenty to demonize himself, we don't need lies to do it.

[HerNameIsBuffy]

28 minutes ago, nokidsmom said:

To the bolded: this is exactly how I envision it happening for Josh.  He's going to get real tired of being reminded of his sins in some form or another every.single.day indefinitely.  Granted, given what he has done, it's unrealistic in any case to expect there to be complete and total forgiveness from everyone in the family and to have everyone pretend it never happened.  There's going to be a new normal there's no way around that.  If he is expecting things to be the same, he will be disappointed.  OTOH, sooner or later, the family has to adjust to the new normal, putting Josh through a daily walk of shame forever is no good for anyone.   If Anna wants to work on her marriage then having him shamed at every turn (even if she's not doing it herself but the family is) will not work.

Somehow I am leaning towards Josh dealing with the latter situation, because I sense all of the family are very very angry at him as being the primary cause of derailing the gravy train.  There's a lot of emotional baggage that hasn't been dealt with from the molestations.   He's been unfaithful to his wife and broke her heart.   He has laid bare the rottenness that is behind the "wholesome Christian" family.  He will be going home to a lot of angry people whom I don't think will let him forget it.

 

All of this.  Anna and indirectly the kids (indirectly because they shouldn't know any details, but there is no denying they will have their own responses to the tension) will be one complicated can of worms.  

But his family of origin...their unhealthy dynamic (the enmeshment makes me claustrophobic and that's just hearing about it), their communal livelihood, and the fact that their brand was carefully crafted to present them as one entity...intentionally or not they set it up so they are only as strong/wholesome as their weakest member.  In families where this kind of thing has happened the best case scenario is that the perpetrator gets real help and is no longer offending and the victims have the space and autonomy to decide what contact (if any) with which they are comfortable.  Maybe at some point the victims chose to have a relationship with the person who abused them because they are in a place where it's what they want.  Maybe some are happy the person got help and is no longer offending, but even though they still love their abuser they aren't comfortably having any type of relationship

Or a million other options along the spectrum even in best case.  The infuriating thing is that the victims in this case don't seem to have any agency in their healing and sure as heck don't seem allowed to set real boundaries if that included no contact.

The whole ignore it and it will go away doesn't work on this type of damage - ignoring it will create all kinds of emotional abscesses in everyone involved.  From what I've been told by people who have experience similar situations you can be fine for a long time, even not think about it, but it's always there even if it's dormant and never knowing when it would force itself back to the fore was ...very hard to deal with.

 

tldr - Nothing we haven't all said before.   No good will come of people who were victimized having their emotions managed externally by their parents.

[Four is Enough]

I think y'all are giving Josh too much credit. I don't think he's afraid of JB. I don't think he's planning to break out. He is, IMHO, doing what he's always done: he's doing the easy thing. Homeschooling hard? Go to work at a used car lot Daddy gives you. Building the TTH hard? Narrate the TLC footage instead.  Selling  I mean washing cars too hard? Get a Gothard approved job selling bigotry in DC. Getting moved in at DC too hard? Get your 18 siblings to come along and carry everything up the steps for you. Sticking with one spouse hard? Get you an online girlfriend. 

And finally, FACING UP TO YOUR TRANSGRESSIONS hard? Hide at "rehab"....And when he comes out, he will continue to do the easy thing, whatever that is.

[nokidsmom]

1 hour ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

All of this.  Anna and indirectly the kids (indirectly because they shouldn't know any details, but there is no denying they will have their own responses to the tension) will be one complicated can of worms.  

But his family of origin...their unhealthy dynamic (the enmeshment makes me claustrophobic and that's just hearing about it), their communal livelihood, and the fact that their brand was carefully crafted to present them as one entity...intentionally or not they set it up so they are only as strong/wholesome as their weakest member.  In families where this kind of thing has happened the best case scenario is that the perpetrator gets real help and is no longer offending and the victims have the space and autonomy to decide what contact (if any) with which they are comfortable.  Maybe at some point the victims chose to have a relationship with the person who abused them because they are in a place where it's what they want.  Maybe some are happy the person got help and is no longer offending, but even though they still love their abuser they aren't comfortably having any type of relationship

Or a million other options along the spectrum even in best case.  The infuriating thing is that the victims in this case don't seem to have any agency in their healing and sure as heck don't seem allowed to set real boundaries if that included no contact.

The whole ignore it and it will go away doesn't work on this type of damage - ignoring it will create all kinds of emotional abscesses in everyone involved.  From what I've been told by people who have experience similar situations you can be fine for a long time, even not think about it, but it's always there even if it's dormant and never knowing when it would force itself back to the fore was ...very hard to deal with.

 

tldr - Nothing we haven't all said before.   No good will come of people who were victimized having their emotions managed externally by their parents.

100% agree with this.  And personally, while Anna will have her issues with him (plus how it will affect the kids), that might be not as bad as what he might face from his family of origin.  Yes, Anna has been deeply hurt but with the FOO there's layers of WTFuckery perpetuated by years of enmeshed "we are all one" dynamics which will allow no one to pursue their own individual paths to healing.  It's the lack of individual autonomy that concerns me the most.

Anna could be the one that has the easier time compared to the rest of the family who has a lot of emotional baggage that seems to just get piled on.  

[luv2laugh]

1 hour ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

All of this.  Anna and indirectly the kids (indirectly because they shouldn't know any details, but there is no denying they will have their own responses to the tension) will be one complicated can of worms.  

But his family of origin...their unhealthy dynamic (the enmeshment makes me claustrophobic and that's just hearing about it), their communal livelihood, and the fact that their brand was carefully crafted to present them as one entity...intentionally or not they set it up so they are only as strong/wholesome as their weakest member.  In families where this kind of thing has happened the best case scenario is that the perpetrator gets real help and is no longer offending and the victims have the space and autonomy to decide what contact (if any) with which they are comfortable.  Maybe at some point the victims chose to have a relationship with the person who abused them because they are in a place where it's what they want.  Maybe some are happy the person got help and is no longer offending, but even though they still love their abuser they aren't comfortably having any type of relationship

Or a million other options along the spectrum even in best case.  The infuriating thing is that the victims in this case don't seem to have any agency in their healing and sure as heck don't seem allowed to set real boundaries if that included no contact.

The whole ignore it and it will go away doesn't work on this type of damage - ignoring it will create all kinds of emotional abscesses in everyone involved.  From what I've been told by people who have experience similar situations you can be fine for a long time, even not think about it, but it's always there even if it's dormant and never knowing when it would force itself back to the fore was ...very hard to deal with.

 

tldr - Nothing we haven't all said before.   No good will come of people who were victimized having their emotions managed externally by their parents.

This is an extremely analyzed, insightful observation and I completely agree. 

[EmmieJ]

2 hours ago, enine said:

I've seen this habit on so many people in shitty relationships or with jobs/roommates/whatevers they don't like. Nothing ever changes. You have to be a strong person to change a life that sucks. Josh isn't a strong person. He's smug and a dickhead, he's so full of the weird believes his father told him, that he's never going to chance. I guess he'd rather shame Anna for being a bad wife than admitting his beliefs are idiotic.

I think any child raised in a Gothardite household has been given the short end of the stick.  Josh (like so many) wants to pick and choose which guidelines he will follow and which he will not.  Head of the household, my word is law?  He's good with that.  Sex on demand?  Good with that.  Faithful to your wife?  Not so much.

The problem with Gothard and other cults and fundamentalist belief systems, especially ones that actively discourage any form of original thought, critical thinking and/or curiosity or questioning of authority, is that it often discourages the development of real morals or integrity.  As a person of no particular faith, I still have a moral code that I live by.  I choose not to steal from others, because I believe that is wrong.  When I am in a relationship with someone, I choose to be faithful not because I'm afraid god will punish me if I'm not, but because I believe it's wrong to be unfaithful and lie to someone who loves and trusts you. 

Whatever Josh's moral code is, it's very elastic and self-serving. 

[Ace3]

Possibly off topic, but IF TLC did bring back 19 Kids (and a dried up womb?) would they just skip Josh and family in the intro to gloss over him? "Here's Jim Bob, my wonderful husband, and our kids: ummm..., John David, Jana.....and our grand M kids"? Do you think he would get any mention at all or would they just cut him to keep fans/any remaining sponsors happy? I vaguely recall them saying that Josh would not appear on any TLC show in any capacity in the future.

[HerNameIsBuffy]

16 minutes ago, nokidsmom said:

100% agree with this.  And personally, while Anna will have her issues with him (plus how it will affect the kids), that might be not as bad as what he might face from his family of origin.  Yes, Anna has been deeply hurt but with the FOO there's layers of WTFuckery perpetuated by years of enmeshed "we are all one" dynamics which will allow no one to pursue their own individual paths to healing.  It's the lack of individual autonomy that concerns me the most.

Anna could be the one that has the easier time compared to the rest of the family who has a lot of emotional baggage that seems to just get piled on.  

I completely with this.  I don't think Anna will be his highest hurdle by a long shot - that'll be the Duggar machine.

[Dandruff]

I believe Josh will be on an extremely short leash, at least when he first gets out.  I imagine a "discharge summary" (no pun intended) from RU that lays out the protections they believe Josh needs.  Then Jim Bob, along with Anna and various others, will make sure there's no opportunity for him to stray (an area of expertise in the world of Gothard) - as in flip phone, filters, accountability software, not ever going out in the public alone, very limited or no TV, etc.  In time, as I said in a post above, I think he'll be sent to Big Sandy or an overseas mission.  Maybe a job at RU.  He'll have a choice - live with assigned limitations or completely separate himself from the Duggars and their extended group.

I really don't think the Duggars are willing to put up with any more stuff from him.  Molestgate lost them the show, they defended him (and he let them), then the Ashley Madison situation came to light.  Huge embarrassment.  Then came the Dillon accusations - which were dropped, but cost the family a lot.

[usedbicycle]

I feel like Danica dropped the case because she got a payout. It's a classic situation where she gets a lump sum payment in exchange for Josh not having to discuss details of his "bedside manners" in court. Can you imagine Josh publicly testifying about going to strip clubs, getting a lap dance, watching Ms. Dillon's videos at home, admitting to an attraction etc.? Maybe she made up the rough sex part or even the whole sex part, but she had some juicy facts about him that he paid to hush up.

[Furbabies]

Now would be a good time for the mystery Fifth Victim to come forth.  Should she want to, that is.

[tumblr]

1 hour ago, Dandruff said:

I believe Josh will be on an extremely short leash, at least when he first gets out.  I imagine a "discharge summary" (no pun intended) from RU that lays out the protections they believe Josh needs.  Then Jim Bob, along with Anna and various others, will make sure there's no opportunity for him to stray (an area of expertise in the world of Gothard) - as in flip phone, filters, accountability software, not ever going out in the public alone, very limited or no TV, etc.  In time, as I said in a post above, I think he'll be sent to Big Sandy or an overseas mission.  Maybe a job at RU.  He'll have a choice - live with assigned limitations or completely separate himself from the Duggars and their extended group.

I really don't think the Duggars are willing to put up with any more stuff from him.  Molestgate lost them the show, they defended him (and he let them), then the Ashley Madison situation came to light.  Huge embarrassment.  Then came the Dillon accusations - which were dropped, but cost the family a lot.

I agree that he will be on a short leash and I think that is what will ultimately push him into leaving.

He will be forced to realize exactly what kind of life style is allowed in their religion/group/cult and he will likely be miserable. After a year or two, completely with forgiveness baby, he will likely politely bow out. No public statement, just a quite move out on his own. Maybe he takes Anna and kids but I don't think she wants to leave so it will probably end in divorce. 

[formergothardite]

I won't be surprised if he eventually leaves. He has had a taste of freedom and while he may have submitted to Jim Bob after the initial shock and humiliation of everyone finding out his dark secrets, he is going to get tired of living in a highly controlled cage. It might not happen right away, but one of these days he is just going to get fed up with it all. 

[EmmieJ]

1 hour ago, Dandruff said:

Then Jim Bob, along with Anna and various others, will make sure there's no opportunity for him to stray (an area of expertise in the world of Gothard) - as in flip phone, filters, accountability software, not ever going out in the public alone, very limited or no TV, etc. 

As if being part of the cult wasn't bad enough, can you imagine living as you described above?  Someone constantly watching your every move, having to ask your wife to type in the computer password so you can go on-line, and then having her sit right next to you to make sure you don't "accidentally" go to any non-approved web pages.  Your wife or your father or mother having your phone's passcode so they can check to see who you are texting or receiving texts or calls from.  No going anywhere alone, and then when you return from an errand, having the person who went with you possibly tattling that you spoke too long to the store clerk, or you smiled at a woman you passed in the street, or you otherwise broke some rule or another. 

I just cannot imagine how oppressive that would be.  If the man is supposed to be the headship, how does that square with still being under your father's thumb, or having to answer to your wife for your every move? 

I don't think Josh really liked the constraints of his life before the Ashley Madison scandal broke, and he had more freedom than the rest of his siblings.  I think he'll be very unhappy with life after he returns from wherever he has been, but he'll pretend things are good until he cracks from the pressure and breaks bad again.

[quiverofdoubt]

14 minutes ago, EmmieJ said:

As if being part of the cult wasn't bad enough, can you imagine living as you described above?  Someone constantly watching your every move, having to ask your wife to type in the computer password so you can go on-line, and then having her sit right next to you to make sure you don't "accidentally" go to any non-approved web pages.  Your wife or your father or mother having your phone's passcode so they can check to see who you are texting or receiving texts or calls from.  No going anywhere alone, and then when you return from an errand, having the person who went with you possibly tattling that you spoke too long to the store clerk, or you smiled at a woman you passed in the street, or you otherwise broke some rule or another. 

I just cannot imagine how oppressive that would be.  If the man is supposed to be the headship, how does that square with still being under your father's thumb, or having to answer to your wife for your every move? 

I don't think Josh really liked the constraints of his life before the Ashley Madison scandal broke, and he had more freedom than the rest of his siblings.  I think he'll be very unhappy with life after he returns from wherever he has been, but he'll pretend things are good until he cracks from the pressure and breaks bad again.

The duggars are in new territory here. They've spent the past 25+ ish years following the gothard and ati scripts.  And for the most part everyone has followed suit. When a kid acted out they were punished via ati/gothard scripts. If someone stepped way out of line they were sent to reprogramming camps. That's the biggest stick the gothardites have, and those camps sound pretty awful. At least according to recovering grace articles.  So far they are following the script: child steps out of line of gothard ways, sent to retraining (ahem, rehab) camp and reprogrammed till they get back in line.  Last time one of their children messed up so bad it was when Josh molested the girls. They took the same approach then: public confession (then it was the church, this time it was social media), followed by reprogramming camp.  Last time he came home the initiated lots of rules to control his behavior.  But most of those rules were put on t he girls not josh.  If they follow the same pattern it will be Anna who will most likely have to make the most changes. Although all t he boys in the family will probably suffer consequences as well, as they did after josh molested sisters.

The circumstances are a bit different this time: mainly Josh is massively in the public eye now. Their next moves will be heavily scrutinized by the church, the leghumpers, and the haters alike.  He is also technically an adult now so he may be a lot harder to manipulate and control. And of course he has a wife and children involved which complicates things even further.

[nokidsmom]

19 minutes ago, EmmieJ said:

As if being part of the cult wasn't bad enough, can you imagine living as you described above?  Someone constantly watching your every move, having to ask your wife to type in the computer password so you can go on-line, and then having her sit right next to you to make sure you don't "accidentally" go to any non-approved web pages.  Your wife or your father or mother having your phone's passcode so they can check to see who you are texting or receiving texts or calls from.  No going anywhere alone, and then when you return from an errand, having the person who went with you possibly tattling that you spoke too long to the store clerk, or you smiled at a woman you passed in the street, or you otherwise broke some rule or another. 

I just cannot imagine how oppressive that would be.  If the man is supposed to be the headship, how does that square with still being under your father's thumb, or having to answer to your wife for your every move? 

I don't think Josh really liked the constraints of his life before the Ashley Madison scandal broke, and he had more freedom than the rest of his siblings.  I think he'll be very unhappy with life after he returns from wherever he has been, but he'll pretend things are good until he cracks from the pressure and breaks bad again.

In many ways, Josh is going back to the life he had (in or near TTH, under Daddy's control, being watched, etc.) but this time he will have even more constraints than he had before. After having some freedom, especially in DC, he's bound to find it to be absolute hell.   Any desire to make good after what he's done will evaporate under such oppression.   RU might look like a picnic in comparison.

[sawasdee]

Am I misremembering? I thought I read, as part of the end of case papers, that both parties stated that no settlement, or financial agreement, had been made. Please correct me - I could have sworn I read that, which made me accept the fabrication of evidence statement more easily.

[Whoosh]

25 minutes ago, sawasdee said:

Am I misremembering? I thought I read, as part of the end of case papers, that both parties stated that no settlement, or financial agreement, had been made. Please correct me - I could have sworn I read that, which made me accept the fabrication of evidence statement more easily.

The Agreement signed by both parties and submitted with the Stipulation of Dismissal which was approved by the Judge in a court order discusses this quite clearly and you are correct.  The relevant part says:

Quote

The undersigned represent that s/he is at least eighteen (18) years of age; that s/he has never been declared incompetent by a court or agency of government; that no representations have induced him/her to enter into this agreement other than the matters set forth herein; that the undersigned relied solely upon his or her own judgment, belief and knowledge (after consultation with his/her attorney, if applicable). The undersigned represent that no promise, inducement or agreement not expressed herein has been made to him/her and that this is the entire agreement between the parties. The undersigned enter this agreement under no duress or coercion. 

 

That said, people have been known to lie in court documents and also to make side settlement deals even though they have sworn in a court document that that hasn't happened.

That said, in my opinion whether there is any type of side deal or not (which I tend to think is unlikely) doesn't really seem to matter due to the fact that the Associated Press stated clearly and unequivocally that "Evidence shows Duggar wasn't in Philadelphia at the time." 

I may be giving too much credit to the AP, but I really feel that if they did not have clear and convincing proof that Duggar has conclusive evidence that he was not in Philadelphia at the times of the alleged incidents, I don't think the AP would have gone with that phrasing.  They would have qualified it in some way.  They didn't.  For whatever reason, the AP seems to be solidly convinced that Duggar can prove he was not in that place at that time and I believe them.  Therefore, whether there was any type of secret payoff doesn't seem relevant to me as it is clear that if you believe the AP, the entire "battery and intentional infliction of emotional distress after my shows on these dates" was totally and completely fabricated by Dillon.  We may all have thoughts or opinions as to what Duggar may or may not have done on other dates and/or in other locations and/or with other people, but the entire foundation of this case does appear to be a fabrication.  Duggar may be paying off Dillon and hundreds of other people, but that does not seem to be why this lawsuit was dropped.

tl;dr - you are right that the court documents do say that.  As people have said all along, various parties lie in court documents all the time and sometimes even both tell the same lie.  So, some people are still thinking maybe there was some type of secret side deal.  For my own weird reasons, I don't believe that, but I can see why some people might.

JMHO

[sawasdee]

Thanks, @Whoosh!

As far as I am concerned, with the end of the case, the admittance of fabrication, and the statement of no settlement, anyone who believes that she had any kind of case against the horrid Joshley is a conspiracy theorist on the lines of Alex Jones and Infowars.. (running away)

[twinmama]

3 hours ago, Ace3 said:

Possibly off topic, but IF TLC did bring back 19 Kids (and a dried up womb?) would they just skip Josh and family in the intro to gloss over him? "Here's Jim Bob, my wonderful husband, and our kids: ummm..., John David, Jana.....and our grand M kids"? Do you think he would get any mention at all or would they just cut him to keep fans/any remaining sponsors happy? I vaguely recall them saying that Josh would not appear on any TLC show in any capacity in the future.

Pretty easy to just come up with a new opening that doesn't name each child specifically. 

[Artemesia]

34 minutes ago, nokidsmom said:

In many ways, Josh is going back to the life he had (in or near TTH, under Daddy's control, being watched, etc.) but this time he will have even more constraints than he had before. After having some freedom, especially in DC, he's bound to find it to be absolute hell.   Any desire to make good after what he's done will evaporate under such oppression.   RU might look like a picnic in comparison.

And as an oppressed teenager he could at least look forward to being an adult and having his freedom. What does he have to look forward to now?

[Georgiana]

19 minutes ago, sawasdee said:

Thanks, @Whoosh!

As far as I am concerned, with the end of the case, the admittance of fabrication, and the statement of no settlement, anyone who believes that she had any kind of case against the horrid Joshley is a conspiracy theorist on the lines of Alex Jones and Infowars.. (running away)

I wonder if Dillon's "catfish" claim was an attempt to avoid a countersuit?  After all, if Josh can prove beyond a reasonable doubt that he was not anywhere near where she said he was, he should be able to prove that she maliciously lied in an effort to defame him and collect damages.  True, most public personas will not countersue because they just want the issue out of the news, but the option is there and something Dillon may have to worry about.  

[Whoosh]

7 minutes ago, Georgiana said:

I wonder if Dillon's "catfish" claim was an attempt to avoid a countersuit?  After all, if Josh can prove beyond a reasonable doubt that he was not anywhere near where she said he was, he should be able to prove that she maliciously lied in an effort to defame him and collect damages.  True, most public personas will not countersue because they just want the issue out of the news, but the option is there and something Dillon may have to worry about.  

Maybe Duggar could sue the alleged catfisher, Dillon, and they guy who told the media he has seen Duggar at the strip club for conspiracy to defraud...

To soon?

ETA - I should say that I would love to see Duggar get some type of justice from Dillon, the alleged eye witness and anyone else who may have acted in bad faith.  I don't think it is likely, but as I have said from the outcome I would really like to see the most just and fair outcome.  

[ksgranola1]

In regards to Josh coming home to be watched like an ally cat, imagine what it will be like for Anna. If he goes out to get a paper, says he's going to the post office, has a flat tire; she's going to wonder & doubt. That's only human nature. Boy, that would eat my shorts after a while. She's not going to just trust him right off the bat, maybe never. Especially if they move away. In TT, it wouldn't be that hard to check up on where he's been but in a  new town, she won't go asking around.