Jump to content
IGNORED

Police kills Asperger sufferer during suicide call in AZ


laPapessaGiovanna

Recommended Posts

Police answered to a suicide call at the home of Danielle Jacobs who suffered of Asperger Syndrome. They shot her dead and now claim she was threatening them with a knife. 

Isn't police trained to answer appropriately to suicide (or otherwise mental illnesses related) calls? It seems they had no idea and panicked shooting her down.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3433188/Asperger-s-sufferer-touched-hearts-sharing-footage-dog-helping-cope-meltdown-shot-killed-police-suicide-call.html

Link to comment
Share on other sites

this unfortunately happens a lot more than it should in the states

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I agree that this is a problem in the USA.  The majority of law enforcement agents do go through some type of training on how to recognize and handle various forms of mental illness and/or disability, but it is mostly far from adequate.  Various groups do take time to do voluntary training outreach, but it doesn't bridge the gap between what standard training often covers and what officers should really know.  It is very sad.

ETA - more densely populated areas will often have specific divisions to handle these types of situations, but often the first on scene do not have special training.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Uhhh. While I believe police from all over can definitely benefit from lots more of training in dealing with folks With Issues....you can end up just as clobbered (or dead!) from people with MH issues, as opposed to your average garden-variety hoodlum who has a h@rd-on against anyone in a uniform.

(Worked as a psych tech in the early 1980s with people who had serious brain injuries (lots of frontal lobe damage, VERY unpredictable and often aggressive) and with "kids" (16+) with MH issues who were too damned aggressive to be handled in local correctional sites.)

When part of your basic training is "how to break free from a choke hold before you go unconscious", and you get told "if someone has a knife, grab a chair or a mattress, but if it's a gun, be nice...VERY nice, you never wanted to be so nice in your life!"---you start learning that brain damage or not, major childhood trauma, PTSD, whatever or not---there are some folks who are WAYYYY out of control and dangerous and they NEED to be stopped. Fast. Early.

A couple of my colleagues didn't believe in this. At a locked-down cottage, the juveniles targeted them, announcing that they could isolate and take out staff any time they wanted. One staffer went to hospital with broken ribs and a lot of bruises; the other took a concussion.  This was absolutely not good, especially if you are trying to protect all kinds of vulnerable people and also do rehab.

This is probably way horrible and nasty, but when the night supervisors found out the situation, they had a Come To Jesus Prayer Meeting with the most aggressive kids.  (It was a Mutt and Jeff team: one was built like a fireplug and had been a sergeant in the USAF; the other was 6 foot plenty and way strong.)  Once the kids got told by the NS staff  "if there is a problem on my shift, I am SO going to take you down with me", the dangerous aggression stopped.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is so common that for the most part, people in our area absolutely will not call the police for a suicidal or mentally unstable family member.  Most feel they are signing a death warrant the minute they call 911.

And just because this fucking shit is so outrageous since when does a knife necessitate shooting a lethal weapon?  That  should be cause for immediate suspension.  We had this happen a couple years ago in the next town over.  The guy was at church and either had gone off his meds or was just having some sort of breakdown.  He was a member or was at least known at the church.  As he became more paranoid the congregation thought the police could help him get to the hospital.  The guy had a small pocket knife and the only person he was possibly going to hurt was himself.  In front of the congregation the police shot him. They said it was justified because the guy had a knife.  Needless to say the church and the town were pretty outraged, but no charges, no punishment.  You can imagine how the church members who had decided to call the police felt.  The congregation hadn't worried about their safety.  They called 911 because they were worried about the poor guy.  And it got him killed.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, PennySycamore said:

@laPapessaGiovanna, police are supposed to be trained in how to respond to suicide threat calls appropriately, but it seems that US police forces can't seen to remember what to do anymore.

It happened here too this summer. Here police and carabinieri are routinely called in addition to an ambulance to perform TSO (Trattamento Sanitario Obbligatorio,  meaning Mandatory Healthcare Treatment). The TSO procedure requires that, after an alert from citizens, an authority (the lord mayor or a judge) mandates a TSO, this happens when someone is acting in a way that puts in danger him/herself and/or other people and can't control him/herself and doesn't accept any help. Then an ambulance escorted by law enforcement takes the person (usually drug addicts acting out, people with severe e.d. in need of being fed through IV, people attempting suicide, people with mental illnesses having a meltdown) to the psychiatric ward. The law enforcement presence is meant to help the ambulance crew in case that the person is violent. Mostentimes their only presence is enough,  other times they need to intervene physically constraining the person. Anyway, the last summer in Turin during one of these interventions a man, who suffered from schizophrenia, died while being costrained. It was quite unheard of and a great scandal for a while. 

LinkLink article in Italian,  unfortunately I didn't find it in English.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think it does need to be acknowledged that in the USA part of the issue is guns.  A guy in the distant outskirts of my social circle in SLC suffered a head injury and could be quite difficult after that.  Apparently, last year he was going door to door offering to shovel for pay.  Some neighbor called the police on him.  He reacted horribly and hit one of the responding officers with the shovel.  He was shot dead.  He was a big guy and he had one big ass shovel, but two cops can't handle that without shooting him dead?  If they didn't have guns, perhaps they would have reached for their taser instead or whatever.  Of course, there is no way we will be taking guns away from cops in this country any time soon (and for obviously good reason just to be clear), so it is what it is.

To be clear, I don't fault those officers at all.  I think they were actively being harmed and did what they knew to do.  However, based on @samira_catlover's post, I would venture to say that it is quite possible she and I could have handled the situation with less resulting death.  But maybe not. Again, I really don't fault these officers at all.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's getting to the point where calling 911 for a suicidal person is signing their death warrant in many parts of the US.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As the wife of a police officer, all I am going to say is this.....when you have a person, mentally ill or not, approaching you with a weapon of any kind and you have to make a life or death decision in a split second, then I will debate the issue with you. Until then, I will stay out of this debate.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Bolded by me.....Officer used a taser. Apparently it wasn't effective.

 

Official Press Release on Officer Involved Shooting in Seaside

Seaside, Ore. – February 6, 2016 – On February 5, 2016 at 9:22 PM Seaside Sergeant Jason M. Goodding and an additional Seaside police officer made contact with Phillip Ferry, age 55, from Seaside. Ferry was walking down Broadway and was known by the officers to have a warrant for his arrest. Sergeant Goodding and the other officer attempted to place Ferry under arrest for the felony assault warrant. Ferry resiste...d arrest and the other officer deployed less lethal force (taser). Ferry fired a shot and struck Sergeant Goodding. The other Seaside police officer returned fire and shot Ferry.

Both Sergeant Goodding and Ferry were transported to local hospitals. Sergeant Goodding and Ferry died at the hospitals due to their injuries.

Sergeant Goodding was 39 years of age and lived in the Seaside Community. He is survived by his wife and school aged children. Sergeant Goodding graduated from Sherwood High-School and he earned a Bachelor of Science in Psychology from Portland State University. Sergeant Goodding was hired with Seaside Police Department in April of 2003. During his tenure he worked as a patrol officer, detective, and a patrol sergeant. Sergeant Gooding also dedicated time to his community by coaching several different sports teams within the Seaside area.

Senate Bill (SB) 111 establishes protocols when an agency is involved in an officer involved shooting investigation. SB 111 mandates a separate agency lead the investigation. The Oregon State Police has been asked to conduct the investigation with the assistance of the Clatsop County Major Crime Team. The Major Crime Team is comprised of officers from Seaside Police Department, Astoria Police Department, and the Clatsop County Sheriff's Office, Cannon Beach, Warrenton Police Department, and the Oregon State Police.

There will be no additional information regarding the officer involved shooting until the investigation is completed....

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Chickenbutt said:

Bolded by me.....Officer used a taser. Apparently it wasn't effective.

 

Official Press Release on Officer Involved Shooting in Seaside

Seaside, Ore. – February 6, 2016 – On February 5, 2016 at 9:22 PM Seaside Sergeant Jason M. Goodding and an additional Seaside police officer made contact with Phillip Ferry, age 55, from Seaside. Ferry was walking down Broadway and was known by the officers to have a warrant for his arrest. Sergeant Goodding and the other officer attempted to place Ferry under arrest for the felony assault warrant. Ferry resiste...d arrest and the other officer deployed less lethal force (taser). Ferry fired a shot and struck Sergeant Goodding. The other Seaside police officer returned fire and shot Ferry.

Both Sergeant Goodding and Ferry were transported to local hospitals. Sergeant Goodding and Ferry died at the hospitals due to their injuries.

Sergeant Goodding was 39 years of age and lived in the Seaside Community. He is survived by his wife and school aged children. Sergeant Goodding graduated from Sherwood High-School and he earned a Bachelor of Science in Psychology from Portland State University. Sergeant Goodding was hired with Seaside Police Department in April of 2003. During his tenure he worked as a patrol officer, detective, and a patrol sergeant. Sergeant Gooding also dedicated time to his community by coaching several different sports teams within the Seaside area.

Senate Bill (SB) 111 establishes protocols when an agency is involved in an officer involved shooting investigation. SB 111 mandates a separate agency lead the investigation. The Oregon State Police has been asked to conduct the investigation with the assistance of the Clatsop County Major Crime Team. The Major Crime Team is comprised of officers from Seaside Police Department, Astoria Police Department, and the Clatsop County Sheriff's Office, Cannon Beach, Warrenton Police Department, and the Oregon State Police.

There will be no additional information regarding the officer involved shooting until the investigation is completed....

Exactly how is this relevant what happened to Danielle Jacobs? She wasn't a criminal, she was attempting suicide, she was armed with nothing more than a knife and they shot her. Practically they "suicided" her.

On 5/2/2016 at 7:51 PM, Whoosh said:

I think it does need to be acknowledged that in the USA part of the issue is guns.

/snipped

 

I agree. Maybe if policemen didn't need to fear that any and every psycho/criminal/whatever were armed with an arsenal, they would have a different standard approach. @Chickenbutt has a point, policemen shouldn't fear for their lives at every turn. I really don't understand why your law enforcement don't lobby more to obtain more control over firearms. Afterall they are the first victims of criminals, second victims are innocent people killed by overreacting policemen who fear for their lives.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Maybe our definition of criminal differs. But anyone who lunges at a police officer with a knife is, in my mind, a criminal.

I understand she had mental issues, but unfortunately her behavior is what required them to shoot.

As to the article I posted....I was wanting to show that officers are being killed every day JUST FOR DOING THEIR JOBS, and as suggested in a previous post a taser was used and it didn't work. The officer was still shot and killed. A taser or less lethal weapon is not the answer in every situation.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

19 minutes ago, Chickenbutt said:

Maybe our definition of criminal differs. But anyone who lunges at a police officer with a knife is, in my mind, a criminal.

I understand she had mental issues, but unfortunately her behavior is what required them to shoot.

As to the article I posted....I was wanting to show that officers are being killed every day JUST FOR DOING THEIR JOBS, and as suggested in a previous post a taser was used and it didn't work. The officer was still shot and killed. A taser or less lethal weapon is not the answer in every situation.

I understand that her behaviour required them to shoot, but did it require them to shoot a gun? She had a knife - isn't this the sort of situation that a Taser was designed for?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I agree with everything that @Chickenbutt is saying in terms of the safety of the officers being the priority.  I also do feel that the overall culture of the USA in general tends toward escalation rather than deescalation and that becomes more frightening given the gun culture.  Then toss in the reality that a properly trained individual might possibly be equipped to deescalate and/or contain a situation with a mentally ill individual without resorting to deadly force yet we don't routinely offer that training to first responders.  No easy solutions to the realities in my opinion.

I am posting again because my earlier post actually spurred me to call my buddy in SLC who was friends with the man that was shot and killed.  It turns out that new video appeared in January, a year after the shooting, that appeared to show a very different truth to the situation.  Then, another video turned up that apparently proves something else entirely.  So, somehow there was video footage from the officer body cam that came out at the time of the incident that seemed to show the shooting was likely justified.  Then a year later cell phone footage from a neighbor appeared to show that the shooting occurred after the man was subdued and handcuffed.  Then, days later, additional footage apparently proves that the second video was shot after the man had already been killed.

Just a good example of how things are not always how they appear (even with video footage) and I don't know what all else.  If anyone is interested in any of this, I am including two links.  The Deseret news article has what appears to be the most recent version of events.  The Fox news article has the first two videos and the story as it was told before the third video surfaced.  Very sad story regardless.  

http://fox13now.com/2016/01/08/new-video-shows-fatal-officer-involved-shooting-in-salt-lake-city-from-another-angle/

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865645314/Gill-to-make-second-ruling-on-Avenues-shooting-ex-chief-denies-man-was-shot-in-back.html?pg=all

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Chickenbutt Our definition of criminals differs wildly, that's sure. I consider these two situations to be apple and oranges. If police acceptable answer to everything perceived as vaguely threatening is shooting I'm very glad I don't live there.  If a psychologist was dealing with her and then shot her down wouldn't be charged with murder? If policemen can't deal with mental illnesses sufferers because  they treat them like criminals, maybe they aren't suitable for answering suicide calls.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guys...just FYI, Danielle Jacobs is a transitioning trans man who goes by Kayden Clark and used male pronouns.

TBH, I think it's just in general very sad that police officers in the US often haven't had proper training on how to de-escalate the situation, or choose not to.

And, I don't necessarily appreciate the entire culture that "our jobs are SO dangerous" of cops that I think seems to be their go-to to escape accountability. I'm sorry, but it's their job to deal with dangerous people, and if they can't handle it, do something else with your life. No one is forcing you to be a cop. People with mental illnesses, ASD, and minorities don't have a choice.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, laPapessaGiovanna said:

@Chickenbutt Our definition of criminals differs wildly, that's sure. I consider these two situations to be apple and oranges. If police acceptable answer to everything perceived as vaguely threatening is shooting I'm very glad I don't live there.  If a psychologist was dealing with her and then shot her down wouldn't be charged with murder? If policemen can't deal with mental illnesses sufferers because  they treat them like criminals, maybe they aren't suitable for answering suicide calls.

Not if he/she was threatening him with a knife. The psychologist would have every right to defend himself.

Let me be clear on a few points before I start my thoughts....every profession, teachers, doctors, lawyers, librarians and yes, even police officers, have people who should not be in their professions. Certainly there are rogue officers that should not be employed. I am not talking about those few officers. I am talking about the vast majority of officers. Also, I am not addressing any poster in particular. When I use the word "you", it is a global thing.

When officers zip up their vests and put on their gunbelts, they do not go to work hoping they will kill someone today. But when they zip up their vests and put on their gunbelts, they do go to work hoping they will come home today. When they first encounter a suspect with a weapon, they have no idea if that person is mentally ill, intoxicated or on drugs. The officers focus is on the weapon. Should his focus waver, then he runs the very real risk of being injured or killed. If people did three things, there would be a whole lot less shootings.

1. When police arrive on scene, drop your weapon.

2. Keep your hands where the officer can see them.

3. Follow orders given to you by officers.

Following these three rules will almost guarantee you won't be shot.

As to officers jobs being SO dangerous.......most of the time their jobs are routine and frankly, boring. But there is the infrequent call that is truly dangerous. It saddens me that a job that honest, upstanding men and woman who joined a profession to truly help people, but due to circumstances, have to take anothers life, are so maligned and disrespected. Who do you call when your car is stolen, your house broken into, or your child is missing?

There is outrage every time an officer shoots a suspect. Where is the outrage when an officer is sitting in his patrol car and is ambushed by a random person and shot in the head?

As much as I would like to further debate this issue, I probably won't. This is MY reality every day. I never fail to kiss my husband goodbye when he puts on his gunbelt and goes to work. I never know if he will come home. Regardless of what anyone thinks of his profession, I am proud of him and honored that he is willing to put his life on the line everyday for you. That is a risk he is willing to take to serve you, the public.

Enjoy your debate.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Chickenbutt said:

There is outrage every time an officer shoots a suspect. Where is the outrage when an officer is sitting in his patrol car and is ambushed by a random person and shot in the head?

There's plenty of outrage. Like, in most death penalty states, doing exactly that can get you the death penalty. And I was under the  impression that that was reserved for what society deemed the worst crimes...so...

As for the "maligned and disrespected" I'm very sorry you see it that way. I'm sure your husband is a great police officer.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Unfortunately I think being a police officer has turned into "a few bad apples spoil the bunch" mentality.  So while they're are those that are amazing, the shitty ones ruin it for all of them.  Especially since they defend their own to the end, even when it's clear the officer deserves punishment.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The entire situation is sad. I could play armchair quarterback, but I feel wholly unqualified. 

Here's what I do know. 

Someone who pulls a knife on a cop (or anyone) is threatening their lives -- even if they don't have any intention of hurting the cop/other person. Cops aren't mind-readers, and I'm sure they're more interested in going home to their families than they are playing "Will he/won't he?"

The fault lies in training in the vast majority of cases, imo. Cops aren't given too many options for dealing with belligerent, hostile people, and they are SCARED. That's an observation, not a judgment. In this case, this man pulled a knife and may or may not have behaved threateningly towards the officers. There're no body cams, and the man is now dead with no way to give his side of what happened. It's a truly awful tragedy, and the disrespect continues in death with the man being misgendered and misnamed. 

I hope his family can get some peace and that the authorities take the time to get to the bottom of what happened and take steps to better train their officers to manage these types of situations so that everyone can come out alive.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Happened in Chicago recently, police call to respond to a disturbed youth resulted in the youth and an innocent upstairs neighbor being killed. The neighbor opened the door for the police (a two flat building with common entry), and was unceremoniously shot dead. The city of Chicago is working on a big settlement for the woman's family. The cop who killed both of them is suing the estate of the disturbed youth because his actions caused the cop trauma by committing the killings. Yes, it's true and yes it is WTF.

This tragic event took place in a low income Black neighborhood. I would never call the police in Chicago for assistance with a mentally ill person.

 

http://abc7chicago.com/news/aldermen-urge-city-to-settle-bettie-jones-shooting-lawsuit/1191580/

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2/7/2016 at 10:41 AM, Chickenbutt said:

Where is the outrage when an officer is sitting in his patrol car and is ambushed by a random person and shot in the head?

 

Literally everywhere.

Whereas a of the supposed "outrage" that exists when a suspect gets shot gets dismissed or straight up mocked. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Quote

And just because this fucking shit is so outrageous since when does a knife necessitate shooting a lethal weapon?

Knives are definitely lethal weapons and can easily do far more damage than a bullet.  There is also a action/reaction time involved and the actor has a distinct advantage.  A person with a knife can cover about 21 feet before their target can react effectively.  There is a common dill/demonstration, called the Tueller Drill, that show the possibilities (linked below).

Police are in an incredibly tough spot.  They are call into dangerous situations where they often put their lives on the line and then are criticized heavily for not resolving the situation without force -- if it was resolvable without force, the police would likely not have been called to begin with.  I don't like people getting killed but most of time these people bring it on themselves.  If a policeman draw his weapon on you, that should be plenty of indication that you need to calm down.  At that point, you do what they say or you end up dead.  Unfortunately, criminals don't really like obeying and people with MH issues often have clouded judgment.
 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.



×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.