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What is cuddly, fluffy and starts with an E? Sarah Maxwell Gets a Dog


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I can't believe I'm defending the Maxwells, but there's nothing wrong with getting a purpose-bred dog. I've got both rescues and dogs purchased from breeders. The important thing is getting the dog that is right for your family!

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18 minutes ago, Mango said:

I can't believe I'm defending the Maxwells, but there's nothing wrong with getting a purpose-bred dog. I've got both rescues and dogs purchased from breeders. The important thing is getting the dog that is right for your family!

I agree. It was just an irresistible joke about sin. ;)

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39 minutes ago, Mango said:

I can't believe I'm defending the Maxwells, but there's nothing wrong with getting a purpose-bred dog. I've got both rescues and dogs purchased from breeders. The important thing is getting the dog that is right for your family!

 

agreed. We've rescued, purchased from breeders, and I even once purchased a dog from a puppy mill *shudder* because I stopped in for dog food (only shop in town that carried my other dogs' food and I had forgotten to order it online in time) and this adorable little baby was so sick and needed to be rescued. The cost was ridiculous and I cringed handing them any money but that pup needed saving. I just could not leave him there. He was near death for a while; I nursed him back to life after a few months and he became such a little angel baby. He went on to develop pretty severe epilepsy with 4+ seizures a day but he was worth every cent. Lost him a few months ago at 16 and no one will ever take his place. :my_cry: Now I'm stuck with all his crazy brothers without his calm to balance out the zoo in my house.

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I was looking at an Instagram of this lady who has a cozy farm and breeds actual working farm dogs. Some kind of herder like Aussies or something and great pyrenese for guarding flocks. I mean this lady has these videos of mass puppy chaos and it's the cutest thing ever. So some moron stumbles in and all "Oh, you're a breeder? How disappointing" I was so annoyed. Never mind pet pure breeds, how do people think a random shelter dog is going to work a farm? You MIGHT get lucky and find a great mutt but it's unlikely. Most likely scenerio is chase your animals for fun or run away scared. Or kill your chickens. The breeder very calmly OWNED that commenter and it was awesome she was backtracking like crazy. Especially when the woman posted a photo of the multiple non-working breed rescues she has in addition to her others.

The anti-pure-bred snobbery drives me crazy. 

 

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As  my genetics professor said, if you just left the mating up to the dogs within about 5 generations all dogs would be 35 pound brown dogs.  Not all pure breds are puppy mill dogs; there are responsible breeders.  I've loved all the dogs we've had from the pure breds, the rescues (some of whom have been pure bred and some not)  and the Heinz 57s.

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I can't believe she's allowed to have a pet. What if they can't train it to pee on schedule!? Or if she loves it too much and it becomes an IDOL!? 

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3 hours ago, Mango said:

I can't believe I'm defending the Maxwells, but there's nothing wrong with getting a purpose-bred dog. I've got both rescues and dogs purchased from breeders. The important thing is getting the dog that is right for your family!

I don't see a problem with getting a purpose-bred dog either. Many people do. 

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I'm shocked that Steve let Sarah buy a purebred dog! Those dogs aren't cheap. Couldn't that money have been better spent on missionaries or something?

Plus...

23 minutes ago, Mela99 said:

 Or if she loves it too much and it becomes an IDOL!? 

I think he must have wanted a dog but couldn't admit it.

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I'm hoping Steve doesn't decide that Sarah is making an idol of Ellie....

I'm curious. What differentiates a responsible breeder from a puppy mill? I have nothing against people breeding purebred dogs, though it's unlikely I'd purchase one myself. Or breeding for certain characteristics.

It isn't too big of an issue now, but in the future id like a dog, and don't know if I'll be able to get one from the shelter. So I'd like to know.

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35 minutes ago, Mela99 said:

I can't believe she's allowed to have a pet. What if they can't train it to pee on schedule!? Or if she loves it too much and it becomes an IDOL!? 

Well, we know Erika Shupe's answer to that one...:pb_confused:

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10 minutes ago, Trynn said:

I'm hoping Steve doesn't decide that Sarah is making an idol of Ellie....

I'm curious. What differentiates a responsible breeder from a puppy mill? I have nothing against people breeding purebred dogs, though it's unlikely I'd purchase one myself. Or breeding for certain characteristics.

It isn't too big of an issue now, but in the future id like a dog, and don't know if I'll be able to get one from the shelter. So I'd like to know.

Puppy mills are characterized by indifferent breeding and horrid, overcrowded, unsanitary conditions for the dogs. They are truly hell holes. Responsible breeders will make sure their dogs and puppies are well cared for with proper health checks for the dogs and they (hopefully) will not breed dogs with genetic problems.  Many breeders try to breed dogs that best exemplify the breed standards.  That is somewhat controversial though as some breed standards promote traits are really undesirable such as tiny skulls in King Charles Spaniels and sloped backs in (American) German shepherds. Then there are the backyard breeders who don't breed indiscriminately and take reasonable care of their dogs, but they may not be as careful about breeding as would professional breeders.

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2 hours ago, Trynn said:

I'm hoping Steve doesn't decide that Sarah is making an idol of Ellie....

I'm curious. What differentiates a responsible breeder from a puppy mill? I have nothing against people breeding purebred dogs, though it's unlikely I'd purchase one myself. Or breeding for certain characteristics.

It isn't too big of an issue now, but in the future id like a dog, and don't know if I'll be able to get one from the shelter. So I'd like to know.

The breeder where we got our dog has a large kennel situated on a ranch. Her retired dogs are fixed and the ones she keeps have the run of the ranch. She starts breeding bitches at age two and retires them at age four. (I think they have two litters? Maybe three?) Most of those who retire (as I said, she has some permanent residents) are rehomed at no cost (either kennel has them fixed or new owner has to agree to neuter the dog immediately, I don't remember which), but you should see the paperwork for those applying for one of these dogs. She's got lots of champions in her bloodlines, and says she breeds for temperament first and then intelligence, not just beauty.

She feeds them on a raw diet (I have no idea how she manages this, but maybe she can afford to raise beef cattle for the dogs) -- our puppy had a taste for grass-fed beef when she arrived -- she could tell it from the supermarket stuff just by the smell.  When there's grass-fed on the counter, she begs like crazy. Unfortunately, we can't feed her grass-fed beef, as it's difficult to afford even for ourselves...

She researches constantly and publishes information on diet, vaccinations, genetic factors, and other health issues. Though she sells a large breed, she guarantees their hips *if* you follow her guidelines for feeding a raw diet with a small amount of high quality kibble for filler (she swears by Origen, but only as "filler" and not the dog's main source of calories).

We looked into adopting a retiree, and were told any dogs already in our house would have to be neutered before we would qualify for one. We're still thinking about the idea, but our puppy's not two yet, and we don't want to fix her too early as it can have health effects.

The rescue person who helped us get our first dog of that breed said this breeder was most emphatically not a puppy mill.

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We got a dog from a breeder about a year and a half ago, our first dog. I can imagine that a rescue dog might not (always) be the best option for a first-time owner, especially if you don't really know the background. Obviously every dog of a specific breed is different, and I'm not a dog expert, but a pure-bred/simple F1 crossbreed is probably easier to predict behaviour-wise than a dog of uncertain ancestry. 

I agree, the number of people who act all superior about adopting a rescue dog and looking down on those who buy from breeders is ridiculous. Yes, adopting a rescue is a good thing (and I'm sure I would if I was a more experienced owner) but they're not always the best option for someone.

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9 hours ago, Trynn said:

I'm hoping Steve doesn't decide that Sarah is making an idol of Ellie....

I'm curious. What differentiates a responsible breeder from a puppy mill? I have nothing against people breeding purebred dogs, though it's unlikely I'd purchase one myself. Or breeding for certain characteristics.

It isn't too big of an issue now, but in the future id like a dog, and don't know if I'll be able to get one from the shelter. So I'd like to know.

 

I've gotten two Irish Setters from a responsible breeder and I would have no qualms about doing so again. This breeder lived on a few acres; there was a huge field and a small pond and some horses among other things. The dogs had their own barn for sleeping and the adults were given free range during the day. The breeder had an extensive interview process and if she thought you'd make a good parent, she'd invite you to meet the puppies. Not only could you meet the puppies, you could meet their parents, grandparents, and in some cases great-grandparents that all lived happy lives on site. The pup you were considering could also be brought out into the open field area to see how it acted and for the prospective human parents to decide if it would make a good hunting dog. The breeder did not let the puppies leave their mom until 6+ months.

I also have a pure bred schnauzer who was "rehomed" from a family who thought he'd make a good christmas present. As I did not purchase him, I don't know what the breeder conditions were like. 

Some puppy mill dogs never even see the light of day or step foot out of a cage. When they're barely of age (~6/7 weeks old), they're ripped from their mommas and shipped to a happy little pet store, where again, they sit in a cage until someone takes them out to play and maybe adopts them. Mom's milk is replaced with a substandard puppy chow when they barely have teeth to chew with. Where I'm from it's illegal to sell a dog prior to 8 weeks but I wish that would change to a later date. They're just not ready. That time with their mom and siblings is crucial to their development. 

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Puppy mills will start breeding females as soon as soon as they go into their first heat, which is actually sooner than is good for the dog (kind of like how a 13 year old can get pregnant, but it's not good for the girl physically and emotionally). They will also make the females have as many litters as they can over the life of the dog. Males will be made to mate with as many females as they can, which is not good for them. They won't care about the health of the animal or issues when choosing to who to breed - they just breed them.

I have a Yorkie I got from a breeder. The breeder mentioned breeding him as he's a great looking little guy, but as he got older he developed a curved back that is a recessive traits among Yorkies. It can lead to a lot of problems for the dogs that get it (thankfully nothing so for with my dog!) So, no breeding. He otherwise has all the desirable Yorkie traits (size, color, etc.), but that alone meant no breeding. 

A puppy mill wouldn't care about that. They'd breed him and who cares if he passes on his curved back to his puppies. 

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A year or so ago,  I came across a newspaper article about an obviously hard-core fundie family in Marble Falls, TX who bred large dogs (can't remember which one but German Sherphards/Labs/Setters) as one of their fundie family revenue streams.  The other family businesses were recognizable as fundie suitable. 

Wonder if Ellie would become a revenue stream for a certain SAHD

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I very much doubt Ellie is going to be bred to become a new revenue stream for Sarah.  The Maxwells have had dogs before.  There was nothing to indicate their last dog, Honey, was anything other than a well cared for and loved canine, Steve's protests aside.  

Ellie looks happy.  Sarah looks happy.  I take it at face value.

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It's easier to tell if your dealing with a responsible breeder than a puppy mill. Puppy Mills are gross places, but even if you get a pm pup you'll probably never see where it came from. 

If you want to avoid puppy Mills your best bet is to avoid pethe stores entirely and don't buy puppies off Craigslist  (of they are asking more than a reasonable rehome fee it's either a puppy mill or a backyard breeder).

 

The biggest trick to ensure you are not getting a pm pup is to see the parents, in person. Most unethical breeders do not want you anywhere near their set up.

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The main reason we went for a rescue dog is because puppies take a heck of a lot of work and, with working, we didn't feel it was fair to get a puppy.

Holly is 7 and is already house trained.  Obviously, when you go the rescue route, you could end up with all sorts of issues.  We seem to have been very lucky (although it is only day 2).  Thankfully Holly wasn't abused in any way - her old owner died - so maybe that has helped.

She is so loving - just wants to constantly lick us.  I really hope Ellie brings some happiness into Sarah's life.  We had to really think about getting Holly as we both work, I go to college one night a week.....we have lives.  Sarah doesn't really seem to have that problem which is so sad.  I'm just glad she's got Ellie to bring her some joy.

 

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I was shocked and saddened to learn how the Amish treat (mistreat, actually) their animals, from the horses used on the farm and to pull their wagons down to dogs that are bred for sale.  Most Amish breeders won't let you near their barns or whelping pens.  I saw a beautiful Lab pup at my vet's--her owner had bought her from an Amish farmer the day before.  The pup had scratches all over her face and her tail had been broken at the breeder's and not fixed.  The owner said that she couldn't bear to think of leaving the poor pup at that farm.

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14 hours ago, Trynn said:

I'm hoping Steve doesn't decide that Sarah is making an idol of Ellie....

I'm curious. What differentiates a responsible breeder from a puppy mill? I have nothing against people breeding purebred dogs, though it's unlikely I'd purchase one myself. Or breeding for certain characteristics.

It isn't too big of an issue now, but in the future id like a dog, and don't know if I'll be able to get one from the shelter. So I'd like to know.

I can't like leave this alone so please excuse my soap box. :D

There's not one single all encompassing definition of responsible that is valid across breeds. There are breeds where a responsible breeder absolutely is breeding only for one specific function (I would argue that breeding Belgian Malinois for pet homes is NOT responsible, or that trying to breed Siberian Huskies who will function as guide dogs, likewise.) There are also breeds where breeding for a more nebulous purpose like companionship is 100% A-OK. I'd argue Goldens fall in that category. I don't think "But you could get that from rescue!!!!" is necessarily a good justification NOT to breed as long as the dogs that are being produced are healthier, saner, and sounder than the ones in rescue- but they need to also not be contributing to the problem by potentially ending up there! 

For ME, there are three key things that make a responsible breeder. The breeder has a purpose and a plan- they are not just breeding to make puppies or to make money. This may mean they are breeding for conformation showing or competition; it may mean they are breeding a dog for their own enjoyment and ownership - but they have a plan that they can articulate about why they bred the two individual parents beyond "well we owned them both and they have papers." They can talk to me about generations of the parent dog (or dogs) families- even if they didn't own them, they know them and know a lot about them. 

They are screening owners to make sure they are a good fit for the breed and an individual puppy and are capable of taking care of the dog for life. (this means they ask questions and they use a contract. Some may use a written application, others may use an interview, but ALL stand behind their puppies and will take them back if they are in need of a home, ever- even if it is 15 years down the road and the puppy is now a very old dog, etc.)

Lastly, they are doing their best to produce healthy dogs, utilizing science-based tools such as health screening (stuff like x-raying for hips), possibly DNA screening (for specific conditions such as certain eye diseases- this isn't a thing in many breeds or for most health conditions, though) and sensible breeding practices (such as not breeding dogs with health problems that are likely to be heritable) or which are likely to produce dogs with health problems (such as merle to merle breedings, which have a fairly significant potential for producing deaf-blind dogs.). This includes taking good care of their own dogs. It doesn't mean they ONLY have shiny happy healthy dogs (breeders who are in it for the long term WILL have old dogs, like anyone else, most good breeders rescue too, and sometimes stuff just happens. But their dogs will be cared for.) 

I'd be happy to talk more about this in PM (to you or anyone else who is interested) and maybe give you some more specific advise depending on the type of dog you are looking for, but I don't want to threadjack too badly. 

 

@Casserole - on the age thing, it si REALLY breed dependent. I have gotten puppies at 8 weeks, and I've gotten dogs at 6 months. There are some very sound developmental reasons for both ages. My 8 week old took a little longer to housebreak- but I was able to socialize the heck out of him in a way that his breeder- who had kids and more dogs- simply could not do, because there are not enough hours in the day to spend 2-3 hours training every single puppy in a litter without completely neglecting the rest of the litter. *HE* was ready then. Some other breeds are NOT ready until later. One of my past dogs is of a larg eworking breed which tends to be very suspicious of things they are not introduced to early on. She was NOT introduced to many things (lots of surfaces, climbing things, men in uniform, sirens, gunshot sounds, loud screamy people and other things a working dog might encounter, sure! Livestock, people in wheelchairs, automatic doors, children- not so much.) because the job he envisioned for her (military working dog) was not what she ultimately ended up doing (sports dog with an eye towards potential service dog work- she was washed out for reasons that had nothing to do with her temperament or health though.) And still other breeds- such as giant breeds- cannot be shipped due to their size after a certain age, so that can be a consideration as well. (A friend of mine has wolfhounds. They CANNOT be imported to or from Europe after a certain age- they just plain do not FIT in even the largest possible airline crate that can be flown. For the genetic diversity of the breed, being able to send dogs back and forth is fairly critical, and while some of this is accomplished by shipping frozen semen, dogs who are going to move continents generally need to be shipped by around 5 months at the latest.There are a LOT of variables and it's so breed specific that making a one-size-fits-all law about it is SUPER problematic. 

@anjulibai - you have a lot of good points, but a bad topline is not actually a single recessive trait (it's dominant and affected by a LOT of different things- and you can have a straight back and lots of orthopedic problems, it's not as simple as just 'doesn't breed things like curved backs' unfortunately.) And breeding a male dog repeatedly is not really a problem for his OWN health but is potentially very detrimental for the breed he is part of as a whole no matter how nice he is, due to the bottlenecking of closed gene pools.

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@Mango, thank you for your wonderful answer to the responsible breeder question.  

I have a chocolate dapple dachshund.  The Dachshund Club of America no longer accepts double dapples (dapple is dachsie-speak for merle) because of the blindness issue.  I've seen pictures of one double dapple dachsie who was born without eyes.  She was rescued (maybe from a puppy mill?) and found a wonderful forever home with someone who was willing to live with her limitations.

 

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@Mango Do you not recommend a malinois as a family pet in any capacity or just without other outlets? I'm curious, as I have good friends who breed and train them to be family protection dogs. They are quite impressive to watch when training, and I have also watched them be gentle, loving, and sweet with small children. 

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1 hour ago, JemimaPuddle-Duck said:

@Mango Do you not recommend a malinois as a family pet in any capacity or just without other outlets? I'm curious, as I have good friends who breed and train them to be family protection dogs. They are quite impressive to watch when training, and I have also watched them be gentle, loving, and sweet with small children. 

If you've got the outlet for them, they can be fine. But every one I know that is successful as a family pet had a "We do sports and also have a family" and it was chosen in that order. Getting a malinois as a pet and then getting into sports to save your sanity with it, less successful. The 'pet only' mals I know (and there are two)- one is from 100% show lines and even her breeder is pretty baffled by how laid back she is - and the other is a shelter dog that I honestly wonder if she is ACTUALLY a malinois. She LOOKS very mally but  you know, maybe she isn't. Generally, I think if someone wants a herdy protection breed as a family pet , I'd point them at a GSD or if they really liked belgians, ,one of the other varieties (and a US show breeder). 

The primary problem, btw, is impulse control. People who do sports - especially the protection sports- just are better equipped to teach a malinois to have self control, which is a SUPER necessary skill, because the breed is SO finely tuned to bite first and ask questions later. This is a good trait, mostly, in a military working dog, but can be a nightmare in a home with kids. (And it's worth pointing out that even some miltaries- notably the Norweigan military, most recently- have stopped using them entirely because they're so prone to redirecting at handlers when frustrated.) And they are REALLY awesome dogs, but it's a bit like a fancy schmancy supercar- all torque and touchy steering and 0-70 in 3 seconds and gearheads drooling over it- when you really might be happier with a nice boring subaru outback that will handle nicely when there's ice in the driveway and not get stuck in the mud if you park in a field and it rains.

 

(Fixing typos and ETA) - doing husky rescue, the #1 dogs we get into rescue are the people who thought they would make a change in their life FOR the dog "I got a husky and I was going to start jogging with him!" when the dog didn't fit into their life as it was. THe dog alone is a big change- two big changes at once is hard! 

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2 minutes ago, Mango said:

If you've got the outlet for them, they can be fine. But every one I know that is successful as a family pet had a "We do sports and also have a family" and it was chosen in that order. Getting a malinois as a pet and then getting into sports to save your sanity with it, less successful. The 'pet only' mals I know (and there are two)- one is from 100% show lines and even her breeder is pretty baffled by how laid back she is - and the other is a shelter dog that I honestly wonder if she is ACTUALLY a malinois. She LOOKS very mally but  you know, maybe she isn't. Generally, I think if someone wants a herdy profection breed as a family pet , I'd point them at a GSD or if they really liked belgians, ,one of the other varieties (and a US show breeder). 

The primary problem, btw, is impulse control. People who do sports - especially the protection sports- just are better equipped to teach a malinois to have self control, which is a SUPER necessary skill, because the breed is SO finely tuned to bite first and ask questions later. This is a good trait, mostly, in a military working dog, but can be a nightmare in a home with kids. (And it's worht pointing out that even some miltaries- notably the Norweigan miltiary, most recently- have stopped using them entirely because they're so prone to redirecting at handlers when frustrated.) And they are REALLY awesome dogs, but it's a bit like a fancy schmancy supercar- all torque and touchy steering and 0-70 in 3 seconds and gearheads drooling over it- when you really might be happier with a nice boring subaru outback that will handle nicely when there's ice in the drieway and not get stuck in the mud if you park in a field and it rains.

Thank you for your thoughts. My friend is former K-9 MP and does thankfully know what he's doing. They use German shepherds, as well, but favor the malinois. It seems like a fair number of their customers are former military with PTSD who feel safer having the protection dog. I've (very hypothetically) entertained thoughts of getting one in the future, but they are a huge investment. And I'm also rather partial to Great Pyrenees. ;-)

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