Armed Protesters take over Oregon Federal Wildlife Refuge

[GiggleOfGirls]

Bundy wasn't enough of an infamous name for them, I guess.

[Mrsaztx]

8 minutes ago, GiggleOfGirls said:

Bundy wasn't enough of an infamous name for them, I guess.

People kept asking "like Ted Bundy?" And they had to say "no, the other Bundy, that hayseed that got mad about holding up his end of his contracts" and, put simply, that's not very grandiose, when you have a serial killer jumping to the front of the nation's collective memory

[church_of_dog]

The Hammonds have turned themselves in, just as they had planned to all along.  Per CNN.

To be clear -- this is the father and son who were convicted of arson on public land, not the group that is occupying the Malheur Refuge building.

[GiggleOfGirls]

25 minutes ago, Mrsaztx said:

People kept asking "like Ted Bundy?" And they had to say "no, the other Bundy, that hayseed that got mad about holding up his end of his contracts" and, put simply, that's not very grandiose, when you have a serial killer jumping to the front of the nation's collective memory

Well, clearly what we need is a registry of members of the Bundy family. Or we could just deport the whole lot.

[onlyme]

@Mrsaztx

 

I appreciate what you're saying. I haven't been into farming issues lately, but back in the early 2000's I was looking into farming because I wanted to move to the country and got magazines like "Small Farm Today" and "Small Farmer's Journal". I have to admit there are times they genuinely freaked me out. This was when Monsanto was working on the "terminator" gene. I eventually realized I probably just really couldn't work that hard, and that farming has such a wealth of knowledge that goes into it, it was probably unrealistic for me to consider, city kid that I am. 

In my comment of sympathy, I just meant that if a farmer tells his side of the story and the government official tells theirs, or Monsanto rep, etc., my knee jerk reaction is to believe the farmer. It may be I am being duped, I'm sure that is possible. It may be I need more info. But I certainly never even considered any of it with the idea that farmers need charity, or that they can't keep book keeping, or anything like that. 

But I can certainly see what you're saying. 

 

[Mrsaztx]

It's all good. Like I said, I just get very frustrated at misinformation. Strangely enough when something comes out in the news against Monsanto, my Facebook absolutely blows up with pro-monsanto posts from all my Facebook friends in ag. And don't even get me started on those liar-pantses at chipotle, because that will be a whole additional rant that has very little to do with these garbage people who we are supposed to be discussing on this thread. And I think we can all just agree that tater tot casserole is bad for you and everyone should eat more fruits and vegetables, amen.

[EyeQueue]

Here's a quote from one of these fine "patriots" that demonstrates why these guys are so scary to me, and why this is *totally* domestic terrorism:

"At some point… and if we don’t make major changes in government soon, it is already knocking at the door… “We The People” are going to have to exercise what I believe was the main reason for the 2nd amendment, we’re going to have to kill some feds for the sake of our children’s future. Not pretty, hard to believe…but true none the less."

They're going to do it for the children, y'all!

This is from an article that a friend just posted to her newsfeed: http://theconservativetreehouse.com/2016/01/03/full-story-on-whats-going-on-in-oregon-militia-take-over-malheur-national-wildlife-refuge-in-protest-to-hammond-family-persecution/

I'm surprised that this particular friend posted this, and seems in support of it, because she is a quite liberal woman.

One of the pieces of "evidence" cracked me up:

"The study showed the “no use” policies of the FWS on the refuge were causing the wildlife to leave the refuge and move to private property. The study showed the private property adjacent to the Malheur Wildlife Refuge produced four times more ducks and geese than the refuge.  The study also showed the migrating birds were 13 times more likely to land on private property than on the refuge." (From the investigation Susie Hammond apparently did on land use around the area in question).

This is so believable, since birds can totes see those invisible lines that divide federal property from private property. Do these people really believe their own crap?

ETA: I looked at this blog's "About Us" page, and saw this quotation, which gave me some huge lulz: "Fear is at the core of liberalism, and love/trust is at the core of conservatism. Liberalism is about control. Conservatism is about self-empowerment."

Umm...isn't it precisely the opposite? It seems to me the people doing the fear-mongering in our society are conservatives and right-wing nuttos: oh noez!!111 teh gayz!!111  oh noez!!!111 teh muslimmssss!!111 oh noez!!11 teh wimmenz are getting to uppity!!111 oh noez!!111 Fema camps!

[Howl]

When the Jade Helm military exercise was announced for the Bastrop, TX area this past summer, there were many, many more nut case "citizens" than you can believe possible who really thought Jade Helm was a pretext to take away the guns of said "citizens", round people up and HOLD THEM IN A SECRET BASEMENT in WALMART!  Folks, I am not making this up.

The purpose of the Jade Helm exercise was, in part, for military personnel to blend in with the populace and not be detected.  

I'm going to quote a bit from a wiki on conspiracy theories about Jade Helm, and red highlight the relevant language, because it shows specifically how Texas politicians, including the damn governor, are throwing crumbs to these people, who basically hold many of the same beliefs as the Malheur element.  This kind of response from a high level further legitimizes the beliefs to the people holding them.  Louie Gohmert is the US representative for the Big Sandy area.  Ted Cruz is, well, Ted Cruz, 

Quote

On April 28, Texas Governor Greg Abbott ordered the Texas State Guard to monitor the operation, declaring, "During the training operation, it is important that Texans know their safety, constitutional rights, private property rights and civil liberties will not be infringed."

On May 2, 2015, Republican Presidential candidate and Texas senator Ted Cruz said he had "reached out to the Pentagon to inquire about this exercise." In comments to Bloomberg News at the South Carolina Republican Party's annual convention, he said:

We are assured it is a military training exercise. I have no reason to doubt those assurances, but I understand the reason for concern and uncertainty, because when the federal government has not demonstrated itself to be trustworthy in this administration, the natural consequence is that many citizens don't trust what it is saying.  [just thought I'd take this opportunity to  insert a big middle finger and personal f*ck you! to Ted Cruz]

On May 5, 2015, U.S. Representative Louie Gohmert, Republican from the 1st District of Texas, and Vice Chair of the Judiciary Subcommittee on Crime, Terrorism and Homeland Security, voiced his concern in a statement, saying his "office has been inundated with calls referring to the Jade Helm 15 military exercise". with concerns about the U.S. Army is preparing for "modern-day martial law". He noted a political consideration saying, "I was rather appalled that the hostile areas amazingly have a Republican majority, 'cling to their guns and religion,' and believe in the sanctity of the United States Constitution", and asserted that "the map of the exercise needs to change, the names on the map need to change, and the tone of the exercise needs to be completely revamped so the federal government is not intentionally practicing war against its own states."

On May 7, 2015, Terry McAuliffe, the Democratic Governor of Virginia, called Abbott's mobilizing of the Texas State Guard in response to the training exercise "one of the dumbest things I have ever heard".

For more entertainment: 

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jade_Helm_15_conspiracy_theories

The crazy is strong out there in Oregon, and the feds are truly afraid of another Waco/Ruby Ridge.  The presence of at least one child in the compound at Malheur really ties their hands. Most reports say around 20 people holed up. 

However, I think a noose is being quietly and tightly drawn around the occupation and this will quickly turn into a siege as the noose tightens.  

[Howl]

Super detailed wiki with deep background and current situation at Malheur

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Militia_occupation_of_the_Malheur_National_Wildlife_Refuge

There is so much of this that ties into the extreme fundamentalist/white Christian power movement. It is scary to think that at least some of our fellow citizens are waiting for their personal Timothy McVeigh moment. 

ETA to add this High Country News article on lack of support for the occupation from the Hammond supporters and other militia types:

hcn.org/articles/oregon-occupation-at-wildlife-refuge

[polecat]

9 hours ago, EyeQueue said:

Here's a quote from one of these fine "patriots" that demonstrates why these guys are so scary to me, and why this is *totally* domestic terrorism:

snip

1

Oh, it's absolutely domestic terrorism, if you want to go by the FBI's definition of it, anyway*: 

"Domestic terrorism means activities with the following three characteristics: involve acts dangerous to human life that violate federal or state law; appear intended to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion, and occur primarily within the territorial jurisdiction of the U.S."

**I can see where someone who thinks they have the right to shoot federal law enforcement agents might not buy into the FBI's definition of domestic terrorism. From where I sit, these guys are terrifying. 

[WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo?]

FWIW, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (biggest Mormon church) has come out against the occupation of the Malheur Wildlife Refuge headquarters. (Sorry, no website reference. Just saw it on the local news.) So, if Ammon and Ryan Bundy plan to use their faith as a justification for their actions, they're doing it without support from the leaders of their faith.

I can't remember the name of the rancher from Arizona who spoke at the "press conference" (and spoke more naturally and easily than Ammon Bundy or the woman who read their manifesto, imo), but I would be interested to know his faith background.

ETA-- My local news also said that the schools in Harney county are closed for the week, just as a precaution. 

[Howl]

52 minutes ago, WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo? said:

FWIW, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (biggest Mormon church) has come out against the occupation of the Malheur Wildlife Refuge headquarters. (Sorry, no website reference. Just saw it on the local news.) So, if Ammon and Ryan Bundy plan to use their faith as a justification for their actions, they're doing it without support from the leaders of their faith.

Well, there are many rogue Mormons who are out of line with the upper levels of LDS and don't seem bothered by this in the least, because GOD told them directly what to do.  Again, check out John Krakauer's Under the Banner of Heaven: A story of violent faith. amazon.com/Under-Banner-Heaven-Story-Violent/dp/1400032806

For context, in the American west, there is a very long history of Mormons being in opposition to and grappling with the US government, coupled with an early and strong tradition in Mormon history of  establishing new communities in the middle of nowhere. So when God tells you to take the land that belongs to you, go start a new community while knowing you're in direct opposition to the US government, well you just get right after it, because that seems normal. 

ETA that the Bundy brothers at Malheur are three of Cliven Bundy's 14 kids, so I think he can be considered a Mormon patriarch. 

[WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo?]

@Howl, good points about some Mormons' attitudes. I had only heard of Ammon and Ryan Bundy being there. Do you know the third Bundy son's name?

[Pixiedust1960]

Ithink I saw that there are a couple military veterans. Ryan Payne is Jewish and Jon Ritzheimer is "Christian" and hates Islam and Anderson Cooper. There might have been more veterans too, I am not sure. I have only been following a little. Anyone know anything about this and how they are connected?

[DarkAnts]

I read that the Feds are going to shut off utilities and access to public roads. I think we need to send them 15 pounds of sugar free gummy bears. They will give you an epic case of the runs. Look at the Amazon reviews for more details. 

[GiggleOfGirls]

52 minutes ago, DarkAnts said:

I read that the Feds are going to shut off utilities and access to public roads. I think we need to send them 15 pounds of sugar free gummy bears. They will give you an epic case of the runs. Look at the Amazon reviews for more details. 

Yes! This is a brilliant idea!

[doggie]

I think a trail of twinkles and beer leading into the back of a paddy wagon would take care of them easily.

[Mrsaztx]

1 hour ago, doggie said:

I think a trail of twinkles and beer leading into the back of a paddy wagon would take care of them easily.

I was going to say "not if they're Mormon" but maybe they're of one of the fringe Mormon groups that drinks. I've been reading Carolyn Jessop's book and apparently the Jeffs brand of FLDS drinks. Or they might just be jack Mormons, because they do strike me as the kind to throw back a case of natty. 

[Cleopatra7]

6 hours ago, Howl said:

Well, there are many rogue Mormons who are out of line with the upper levels of LDS and don't seem bothered by this in the least, because GOD told them directly what to do.  Again, check out John Krakauer's Under the Banner of Heaven: A story of violent faith. amazon.com/Under-Banner-Heaven-Story-Violent/dp/1400032806

For context, in the American west, there is a very long history of Mormons being in opposition to and grappling with the US government, coupled with an early and strong tradition in Mormon history of  establishing new communities in the middle of nowhere. So when God tells you to take the land that belongs to you, go start a new community while knowing you're in direct opposition to the US government, well you just get right after it, because that seems normal. 

ETA that the Bundy brothers at Malheur are three of Cliven Bundy's 14 kids, so I think he can be considered a Mormon patriarch. 

I was doing some Googling on Mormon folk hero/gunslinger/serial killer Porter Rockwell (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porter_Rockwell) and came across this thread about him on a Mormon blog, where the bulk of the commenters defend him as a faithful Mormon and certainly in the Celestial Kingdom:

http://mormonmatters.org/2009/02/14/the-porter-rockwell-effect-mormonisms-bad-boy-vulnerability/#twt-other-comments-tab

If the mainstream Mormon church considers men like Rockwell to be "heroes," should it come as a surprise that Mormons like the Bundy family will emulate them?

[Howl]

3 hours ago, WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo? said:

@Howl, good points about some Mormons' attitudes. I had only heard of Ammon and Ryan Bundy being there. Do you know the third Bundy son's name?

No, I just read in several accounts that Ammon and two other brothers (one being Ryan) are there. As I mentioned upthread, these are three of 14 siblings.  Ammon is apparently a not unusual name for a Mormon boy.  I'd really, really like to know the names of all the 14 kids. 

[WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo?]

22 hours ago, WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo? said:

snipped

I can't remember the name of the rancher from Arizona who spoke at the "press conference" (and spoke more naturally and easily than Ammon Bundy or the woman who read their manifesto, imo), but I would be interested to know his faith background.

snipped

Sorry for the self-quoting. I found out the name of the Arizona rancher who was a bit more natural sounding at the press conference--LaVoy Finicum. I guess if I want to know more, I'll need to do some research.

@Howl, I agree--I would be very interested to know all 14 Bundy kids' names. 

[EyeQueue]

1 minute ago, WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo? said:

Sorry for the self-quoting. I found out the name of the Arizona rancher who was a bit more natural sounding at the press conference--Lavoy Finicum. I guess if I want to know more, I'll need to do some research.

He's mentioned in this CNN article: http://www.cnn.com/2016/01/06/us/oregon-wildlife-refuge-armed-protest/index.html.

And has 11 kids, so that leads me to believe he's probably LDS like many of Bundy's circle.

6 hours ago, Howl said:

No, I just read in several accounts that Ammon and two other brothers (one being Ryan) are there. As I mentioned upthread, these are three of 14 siblings.  Ammon is apparently a not unusual name for a Mormon boy.  I'd really, really like to know the names of all the 14 kids. 

It's apparently the name of an illustrious character from the Book of Mormon: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ammon_%28Book_of_Mormon_missionary%29.

[WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo?]

Thanks, @EyeQueue! I'm going to go read that now. 

[Maggie Mae]

There's a joke in my area about why you never fish with Mormans. If you fishing with one Morman, he/she will drink all of your beer. If you fish with two or more Mormans, there won't be any drinking. (And who wants to fish sober amirite?) 

[Mrsaztx]

https://www.yahoo.com/news/armed-group-oregon-hints-possible-end-standoff-235453807.html

yahoo is saying the hillbillies are backing down a bit. I think they were hoping they would get more people on their side and that they could whip some people into a frenzy. So far, aside from the people in that little building, I think no one agrees with what they're doing. 

Per the local sheriff  "We want to see them go home to their families and consider how their actions affect this community." Aka "no one wants you to play with their toys, go to your room and think about what you've done!"