Planned Parenthood Shooter

[jaelh]

So the "only moral thing to do is try and stop it" by murdering living, breathing human beings?  I don't want to quote too much nor engage in too much debate on this heated topic, but let's not justify crazed shooters at a health clinic, eh?  

Did you read the rest of the post?  FFS.  explanation =/= justification.  If we can't talk about why people feel justified doing awful things, how in dogs name does anything ever change?   Of course PP murderers think they're justified; that's the point.  And within a certain framework, their logic makes sense.  Is that really such a contentious thing to point out?

Anti-abortion activists would say that "unborn life" epitomize innocence and should be protected at all costs, whereas abortion doctors and nurses are essentially mass murderers. I remember reading "First Things" after George Tiller was shot and there was a roundtable discussion about the use of violence in the anti-abortion movement. The authors quite obviously were glad that Tiller was dead, but couldn't say it outright and maintain a "respectable" facade. This is the problem with the "life begins at conception" viewpoint. If you honestly believe this is true, then it leads to all kinds of strange questions. For example, if life begins at conception, shouldn't all miscarriages or even heavy periods be given full burials? Does this mean that heaven, or alternately hell, is full of zygotes and embryos and such? Do aborted fetuses go to heaven or hell? If the former, isn't it actually better for them to go straight to heaven, rather than run the risk of being born and committing some horrible sin? What about all of the miscarriages that happen naturally? If each fertilized egg represents a new, unique human life that must be carried to term, why isn't the female body designed better so fewer miscarriages occur? And so on.

The intellectual inconsistency is what makes it hard to swallow as a philosophical position.  The innocence of unborn life thing.  Man, that's another thing that irritates me as an inconsistency for two reasons.  1) assuming a Christian perspective  - if we're all fallen, then children aren't any more 'innocent' than anyone else and 2) wouldn't abortion be their immediate pass into heaven, if they die without having actually sinned? 

On the whole mass murdering thing - if you do see the medical staff performing the abortions as mass murderers, you end up with all sorts of equivalency problems.  The whole - if you could have killed Adam Lanza before he went into that school, knowing that he was going to kill those kids, wouldn't that be the "more right" thing to do?  Which is a slippery slope to hell and then some. 

[Cleopatra7]

Did you read the rest of the post?  FFS.  explanation =/= justification.  If we can't talk about why people feel justified doing awful things, how in dogs name does anything ever change?   Of course PP murderers think they're justified; that's the point.  And within a certain framework, their logic makes sense.  Is that really such a contentious thing to point out?

The intellectual inconsistency is what makes it hard to swallow as a philosophical position.  The innocence of unborn life thing.  Man, that's another thing that irritates me as an inconsistency for two reasons.  1) assuming a Christian perspective  - if we're all fallen, then children aren't any more 'innocent' than anyone else and 2) wouldn't abortion be their immediate pass into heaven, if they die without having actually sinned? 

On the whole mass murdering thing - if you do see the medical staff performing the abortions as mass murderers, you end up with all sorts of equivalency problems.  The whole - if you could have killed Adam Lanza before he went into that school, knowing that he was going to kill those kids, wouldn't that be the "more right" thing to do?  Which is a slippery slope to hell and then some. 

Actually, the early Christians did think that having children was a waste of time, because 1. they thought the world was about to end 2. more children just meant more people tainted by original sin coming into the world. Jerome said that the only good thing about marriage was that it created virgins:

https://legacy.fordham.edu/halsall/source/jerome-marriage.asp

[apandaaries]

Did you read the rest of the post?  FFS.  explanation =/= justification.  If we can't talk about why people feel justified doing awful things, how in dogs name does anything ever change?   Of course PP murderers think they're justified; that's the point.  And within a certain framework, their logic makes sense.  Is that really such a contentious thing to point out?

I did read the rest of the post, but I still have issues with it.  I can only speak for myself, but  I find that saying their logic makes sense is contentious.  I still find that reasoning illogical, though Cleopatra7's discussion was far more eloquent (FFS, then we're stuck wondering where life begins AND where it ends -- and what to do about that heavy period?  Was it something more? What do we DO?).  

The idea of perpetuating violence to prevent violence is problematic here.  Of course the framework matters, but taking up the Nazi/Hitler argument is also problematic for its own reasons.  

[Whoosh]

Kind of an aside, but the whole idea of childhood is fairly new.  Historically, if mother and child both survived childbirth, then it was a wait and see if the child would survive to age five.  If they did, they were often put to work.  I am overstating this to some extent, but childhood as we know it wasn't a "thing" until really quite recently.  I will see if I can find some data or whatnot.

[roddma]

I was afraid of this, and those involved have my deepest sympathy,. This isnt a pro-life nut, just a nut who wanted to incite trouble wherever it got him the most attention. If he just shot at a post office, it wouldn't get him no where near the attention as shooting somewhere that is a a hot news/political item now. The mind of a killer is a complex thing than a pro-life nut who values fetuses over someone already born. Anyone can take an extreme position and run with it to commit these acts.

I was afraid of this, and those involved have my deepest sympathy,. This isnt a pro-life nut, just a nut who wanted to incite trouble wherever it got him the most attention. If he just shot at a post office, it wouldn't get him no where near the attention as shooting somewhere that is a a hot news/political item now. The mind of a killer is a complex thing than a pro-life nut who values fetuses over someone already born. Anyone can take an extreme position and run with it to commit these acts.

[Iamhispurity]

If these people were truly pro-life, they would make sure that single mothers were supported by society. Contraceptives should be easily available and cheap. There would be a good sex ed in schools. There would be well-funded and educated child protective services. A great education. Stricter gun regulations. No death penalty. A great social security net. Free health care for everyone. More research into medications to make them pregnancy safe. A better prevention and help system for domestic violence. Initiatives against misogyny.

 

But they are not pro-life. They are just against women. And against poor, marginalised groups. Shame on you.

[CarolinaCat]

Looks like Planned Parenthood was the target of the attack after all. This is so heartbreaking. Robert Lewis Dear is a domestic terrorist, plain and simple. He isn't a Syrian refugee, a Muslim, or a person of color, and I have a feeling that if he actually were a refugee, Muslim, and/or POC, he would not be alive right now. Not only that, but vocal racists, Islamophobes, and/or anti-immigrants would use the attacks to spew even more hate. They'd accuse every single member of these minority groups of being complicit in the attacks. But they can't do that here.

I saw some racist comments on the Interwebs that claimed Dear is the perfect example to black folks of how not to get shot by police. Say what? We can't say Dear is still alive because he didn't resist arrest--he shot at police officers, ffs, killing 1 and injuring 4. He's only alive because (1) he's white, and (2) the police were afraid he had explosive devices.

It's telling that no Republican presidential candidate has responded to the attacks so far. Only Hillary Clinton and Bernie Sanders have acknowledged the Colorado Springs shooting & have given their condolences. Either the other candidates don't know about the shootings, don't know what to say, are afraid of offending their base, or they are cheering silently. My guess is on the latter 2. Here's a link to a sampling of tweets from people who think this awful act of violence was justifiable homicide: https://twitter.com/KeeganNYC/status/670443316803145728. And didn't Marco Rubio give a speech earlier this week urging conservative Christians to ignore US law in favor of God's law (http://www.politicususa.com/2015/11/27/marco-rubio-ignore-scotus-decision-amendment.html)? I visited some conservative websites, where commenters kept insisting the attack was the work of a godless, liberal, ex-PP employee; a robbery gone wrong; or it was a--get this--false flag operation from the Obama administration to take away peoples' guns and regain funding for PP. I am honestly not surprised by all of this. Looks like Francis Shaeffer and co.'s efforts have well and truly backfired. (Thanks for the links, by the way, @amandaaries & @bethella!)

In my mind, domestic terrorists like Robert Lewis Dear pose more of a threat to the US than ISIS. (And I definitely don't see Syrian refugees, Muslims, or people of color as threats, of course.) Three people are now dead, two civilians and one cop. According to the New York Times, the police officer who died was pro-life, married, had two young children, and had spent seven years as a co-pastor at his church. http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/28/us/garrett-swasey-officer-killed-in-colorado-is-recalled-for-courage-and-faith.html

I'm sure I'm preaching to the choir here, but to reiterate: The Center for Medical Progress is connected with religious anti-abortion fanatics who have bombed clinics in the past (Operation Rescue; see https://broadly.vice.com/en_us/article/meet-the-terrorists-in-the-war-on-women for more information); no federal dollars fund abortions except in certain dire situations (per the Hyde Amendment); only 3% of the services Planned Parenthood provides are abortions; and PP is not selling body parts--the organization was merely being reimbursed for the cost of storing and transporting donated fetal tissue to researchers. No different than when transporting a donated organ to surgeons at a hospital. (I say "was" because I think PP may have been forced to stop that practice?) We also have to remember that doctors often describe surgical procedures in a blunt manner that may seem cavalier to others, but medical personnel have to stay objective in order to do their jobs.

I posit that even if Planned Parenthood's services were 100% abortions, they'd still deserve police protection from terrorists. IVF clinics discard more fertilized eggs than elective abortion does. Why is no one attacking them? (I'm not encouraging or condoning this behavior, just pointing out another inconsistency of the pro-life movement.) Fertilized eggs, blastocysts, embryos, and fetuses are not babies--they only have the potential to become born, living, breathing, human beings if they survive pregnancy. Late-term abortions ("partial-birth abortion" is not a medical term) are rare and typically done because of fatal or extremely debilitating fetal abnormalities, which can't be detected until the 20-week scan, or fetal death. It's so sad because these are usually wanted pregnancies and the families are often quite devastated by the news, and then when they get to the clinic, they have to face rabid protesters who call them "murderers." Now, I highly doubt we are imbued at conception with some mysterious, magical soul for which we have no evidence, but even if you (general you) do believe in souls? As one poster above mentioned, why would you (general you) prioritize a fetus (a potential human being) over an already-living, breathing, human being? Outlawing abortions will not stop abortions; it will only force women to go underground for them, and we'll go back to the time when we had dedicated hospital wings for women recovering from the infections that botched, unsafe abortions inevitably caused. Also, iirc, hasn't the rate of abortion among the population actually decreased since Roe v. Wade? I'm not sure how that kind of thing can be calculated, though, and if true, it's probably due to a combination of factors, like better access to contraception & sex ed and advances in medical technology & healthcare, along with the legalization of abortion.

Ohmigosh, I just realized how long my post was. Sorry for the wall of text, you guys. I just get passionate about this stuff sometimes.

[Howl]

Straying away from the philosophical discussion -- I went to the media link posted above tracking updates as they came in, and came across this item, which I'll put into the worst idea ever in the history of bad ideas:

2:51 p.m. UPDATE

There was a moment this afternoon when a man walked up to the scene with a handgun strapped to his waist and ammunition vest around his chest. He appeared to be asking police if he could help. Officers told him to leave immediately because appearing at the scene while wearing firearms and that equipment was a bad idea.

 

Truly a face-palm jesus moment:  When there is an ambiguous active-shooter situation with police under fire, you think...."Hmmm, think I'll suit up with firearms and ammo because LEOs will be happy to have a random armed guy insert himself into the situation, but I have to do this because they obviously need my help and because guns.

 

 

[SpoonfulOSugar]

<snip>

Truly a face-palm jesus moment:  When there is an ambiguous active-shooter situation with police under fire, you think...."Hmmm, think I'll suit up with firearms and ammo because LEOs will be happy to have a random armed guy insert himself into the situation, but I have to do this because they obviously need my help and because guns. 

To be fair (not that it helps all that much), his daughter was inside.  Frightened parents aren't the most rational of creatures.

 

To anyone (here or anywhere) saying that he was not shot because he was white - he was barricaded in a windowless room and officers were being instructed to shoot through the walls.

I really don't think race entered into it, not the least of which is because there's no evidence any officers responding laid eyes on him or had any information about who he was before he surrendered.

[SilverBeach]

So the "only moral thing to do is try and stop it" by murdering living, breathing human beings?  I don't want to quote too much nor engage in too much debate on this heated topic, but let's not justify crazed shooters at a health clinic, eh?  

Terrorism is always wrong. That is all these demented shooters are, terrorists. Since Roe vs Wade, 42 years ago, obtaining a legal abortion still involves running through a gauntlet of shouting protesters for women to avail themselves of this medical procedure. A procedure that is done for many reasons, none of which are frivolous.

Attacks on PP are more than attacks on abortion, but are attacks on women's health services. It is between that woman, her doctor, and her God whether or not to electively abort. Some women regret it, some do not. Yes, I do think that sometimes the abortion experience is made light of, as having your insides vacuumed out is awful. Still not my choice to make for someone else. Prayer is the duty of the believer, and peaceful use of the political process. Not terrorism.

I too do not want to engage in debate on this sensitive topic. As a believer myself, I leave judgement to God, who is in control of all life in my opinion.

[salex]

  

Very curious to see how this ends.  I read on one site that the shooter was a white man seemingly in his 40s.  Wonder if he's Christian, and if so, wonder if he'll be labeled a terrorist or a lone wolf.  Sigh.

I am willing to bet he'll be described as lone wolf.  Scott Roeder the man who murdered Dr. George Tiller in his own church,  had the name and contact info of a leader at Operation Rescue who "knew of" but distanced herself from  him. I lived in Wichita where churches held dinners to raise money to defend clinic bombers and all of them were "acting alone" .

http://www.pitch.com/FastPitch/archives/2009/06/01/phone-number-found-inside-car-of-man-suspected-of-killing-george-tiller-belongs-to-woman-who-plotted-1988-clinic-bombing

[SpoonfulOSugar]

Here is a human interest/backgrounder on the LEO who was killed:

http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_29174984/

[bashfulpixie]

The mindset seems to be if they do it enough times, others will be too fearful to continue working at their own PP.  How is that not terrorism?

[Catey]

It is amazing to me when I think about it the level of bravery that it must take to just work at a PP or SHC. I may believe firmly in many things, I may also even have moments of bravery. I am not sure if I would be able to deal with working full time in any capacity somewhere where this or ANY type of real violence was an actual daily concern.

 

I know that banks get robbed and nurses get assaulted in Hospitals all the time but there is something extra scary to me about the particular brand of nutjob that attacks these clinics The people who work there do things other than abortions all day long that really matter to the lives of the people that they are helping, I am just saying they are some brave ass men and woman,

.

[Toothfairy]

Funny the GOP has nothing to say. These idiots are scared of refugees yet white people are the biggest terrorist in this country.  I already read the excuses for his actions.  But if he were black or Muslim.....

[Black Aliss]

If these people were truly pro-life, they would make sure that single mothers were supported by society. Contraceptives should be easily available and cheap. There would be a good sex ed in schools. There would be well-funded and educated child protective services. A great education. Stricter gun regulations. No death penalty. A great social security net. Free health care for everyone. More research into medications to make them pregnancy safe. A better prevention and help system for domestic violence. Initiatives against misogyny.

 

But they are not pro-life. They are just against women. And against poor, marginalised groups. Shame on you.

This is exactly why I hate the term "pro-life". They aren't. They are anti-choice. I consider myself to be both pro-life and pro-choice and I believe you can't truly be the former without also being the latter.

There has to be the freedom to decide whether to carry a pregnancy to term. But then, if you are pro-life, you make sure no woman has to worry about how she will feed, clothe, and care for a child. If she is on drugs, there has to be a place available for her in a rehab facility (typically the waiting lists for publicly funded rehab facilities are so long that it's not possible to get clean during a pregnancy) and she has to know that her baby won't be taken from her because she was using. Two years' paid maternity leave, universal health care, a national pension that provides for comfortable retirement, decent education opportunities--these are all things that  have been shown to dramatically reduce the number of abortions in Northern European countries, even where abortion is readily available, no questions asked.

[notfundy]

Of course the Republican candidates have nothing to say!  Some (if not most) of them are implicitly, if not directly, encouraging this kind of thing.  I'm sorry, but that is what their rhetoric must sound like to some deranged minds.    "We have to stop the murder!"  "We have to stop Planned Parenthood from profiting from the sale of little baby parts!"     

And btw I think the murder(s) of young black men by police (the video that was just released out of Chicago is awful; I have no words).. cannot directly be compared to this particular incident. This guy had people essentially held hostage inside a building; the police would have taken him out (via sniper) if they could have and in fact were preparing to do so at several points.   I was shocked they were able to get him alive.  

These assaults on womens' reproductive freedom are reprehensible.  This guy is a domestic terrorist plain and simple and THIS is what we should fear, not the Syrian (or any other) refugees.   

[paganbaby]

The latest Planned Parenthood terrorist may owe his life to the measures the clinic had taken prior to the attack to protect its staff and patients. I understand that in addition to having protective vests on hand, they'd installed bullet-proof windows, which gave the attacker a chance to negotiate his surrender.

 

[notfundy]

The latest Planned Parenthood terrorist may owe his life to the measures the clinic had taken prior to the attack to protect its staff and patients. I understand that in addition to having protective vests on hand, they'd installed bullet-proof windows, which gave the attacker a chance to negotiate his surrender.

 

OMG you're right!  I was astonished to read about the lengths to which this clinic (and I am sure others) have gone to protect their patients & staff, including those you mention... and also, having a "safe room"!   The door to this room is only opened if the person knocking does a series of pre-planned "secret" knocks.   

[Cleopatra7]

If these people were truly pro-life, they would make sure that single mothers were supported by society. Contraceptives should be easily available and cheap. There would be a good sex ed in schools. There would be well-funded and educated child protective services. A great education. Stricter gun regulations. No death penalty. A great social security net. Free health care for everyone. More research into medications to make them pregnancy safe. A better prevention and help system for domestic violence. Initiatives against misogyny.

 

But they are not pro-life. They are just against women. And against poor, marginalised groups. Shame on you.

I have seen anti-abortion Catholics respond that their job as anti-abortion activists is to oppose abortion, and anything else is "mission drift." One person gave the example of how advocates for the homeless don't get involved in other, tangential issues, and no one criticizes them for it. But homelessness is a very complex issue, much like abortion. To adequately fight homelessness, we have to know why people are homeless in the first place. Many suffer from mental illness and/or drug addiction that makes it impossible for them to lead normal lives. Many homeless youth are LGBT and have been kicked out of their homes of origin. Homeless families often have to deal with the fact that jobs that pay a living wage are scarce. While churches with soap kitchens or shelters serve a valuable purpose, they don't help homeless people not be homeless. Advocates for the homeless have a bunch of different issues to deal with, aside from the mere fact that some people don't have a permanent place to live. It's the same way with abortion. If you don't address why women are having abortions in the first place, you're wasting your time protesting in front of that clinic. Take the issue of disabled fetuses, for example. Many conservatives, especially in the South, are knee jerk opposed to mass transit. However, having access to good public transit can be the difference between having a job and being independent for a disabled person, and being permanently housebound. I've also seen complaints about making historical churches comply to ADA standards. If you are purposely making life as difficult as possible for the disabled people who are currently alive, why would anyone want to bring a disabled baby into such a hostile world?

Part of the problem is that anti-abortion activists tend to see abortion as simply a matter of "sluts" having irresponsible sex, and all we need to do is go back to the sexual norms of the 1950s and all will be well. But women were having abortions in the 1950s as well, so that's obviously not the answer. Rich women have always had access to safe abortions, and will continue to do so whether Roe v. Wade is repealed or not. Similarly, I suspect the reason why you never see protesters in front of IVF clinics is because the clientele tends to be richer, whiter women who are trying to fulfill their traditional roles as wives and mothers, and so it's less offensive to conservative morals.

[mirele]

Here's an article from Buzzfeed with more background about the terrorist. (Not calling him a shooter, he's a ******* terrorist.)

 

Zigmond Post, who told BuzzFeed News he was a neighbor of Dear’s in Hartsel, said the man once gave him anti-Obama pamphlets.

Post said he once went to Dear’s home to retrieve two dogs that had gotten loose. “We were there for a minute and the guy was already handing us anti-Obama pamphlets,” he said. According to Post, Dear said “Obama was ruining the country and needed to be impeached.”

Post told BuzzFeed News he last spoke with Dear on Wednesday when he saw him at the local post office. He said didn’t believe Dear was acting strangely. “I never thought he would do anything like that,” Post said of Friday’s rampage. “You never think your neighbor would do anything like that.”

Post said police arrived at Dear’s trailer home around 1 a.m. on Saturday morning, and had sent sapper robots into the home later in the morning. 

http://www.buzzfeed.com/aliciamelvillesmith/heres-what-we-know-about-planned-parenthood-suspect#.wo9ryeB78

More at the link, but I think we're looking at a guy who swallowed the right wing nutjob (RWNJ) agenda whole and proceeded to spit it back out.

[MyMilkshake]

Terrorism is always wrong. That is all these demented shooters are, terrorists. Since Roe vs Wade, 42 years ago, obtaining a legal abortion still involves running through a gauntlet of shouting protesters for women to avail themselves of this medical procedure. A procedure that is done for many reasons, none of which are frivolous.

Attacks on PP are more than attacks on abortion, but are attacks on women's health services. It is between that woman, her doctor, and her God whether or not to electively abort. Some women regret it, some do not. Yes, I do think that sometimes the abortion experience is made light of, as having your insides vacuumed out is awful. Still not my choice to make for someone else. Prayer is the duty of the believer, and peaceful use of the political process. Not terrorism.

I too do not want to engage in debate on this sensitive topic. As a believer myself, I leave judgement to God, who is in control of all life in my opinion.

Very well said! 

[Catey]

I must agree with the majority of what I have read here. I am DISGUSTED at all the hateful things being said on Twitter.

The irony, though there are many, is that a POLICE officer died. Are they now held out as people who enter their profession with a desire to serve and PROTECT, protect the lives of citizens with their own lives at times, now whether the Police need some revamping is another topic for another day but how can you wrap your head around saving babies while killing Police, you know the 1st person you call when your child is missing (save for Casey Anthony).

To quote a few just to give the general theme...

"planned parenthood kills a million babies and no one bats an eye. but 1 brave hero tries to put a stop to that, everyone loses their minds"

'Active Shooter Colorado Planned Parenthood. I would think this brave HERO is saving innocent Baby lives!'

[Vivi_music]

I must agree with the majority of what I have read here. I am DISGUSTED at all the hateful things being said on Twitter.

The irony, though there are many, is that a POLICE officer died. Are they now held out as people who enter their profession with a desire to serve and PROTECT, protect the lives of citizens with their own lives at times, now whether the Police need some revamping is another topic for another day but how can you wrap your head around saving babies while killing Police, you know the 1st person you call when your child is missing (save for Casey Anthony).

To quote a few just to give the general theme...

"planned parenthood kills a million babies and no one bats an eye. but 1 brave hero tries to put a stop to that, everyone loses their minds"

'Active Shooter Colorado Planned Parenthood. I would think this brave HERO is saving innocent Baby lives!'

That can't be real tweets? Seriously? 0.0

[smittykins]

I'm not on Twitter, but it wouldn't surprise me in the least if they are.  After all, who cares about already-born people when so many innocent baybeez are slaughtered in their mothers' wombs every single day?