Turkey shoots down Russian Warplane

[PregnantPornStar]

Turkey Shoots Down Russian Warplane Near Syrian Border

Turkey shot down a Russian warplane because they claim the Russian plane entered their airspace. Russia denies this allegation. It seems that if it did happen, it was very brief and the plane landed in Syria. 

Turkey is Part of NATO, so this complicates things for sure. Putin is obviously angry. 

Thoughts?

[Firiel]

Note that all I've heard of this is a short NPR spot.

But I've kind of stopped believing a word Russia says.  Russia (to me) has kind of become the pathological liar that comes to the family Thanksgiving celebration and talks about how he got fired from his most recent job for no good reason, and all the other countries kind of nod awkwardly and pass him the vodka.

Again, I haven't read up on this particular incident, so maybe this time the uncle actually didn't do anything shifty to get himself fired.

[sawasdee]

according to Al Jazeera,  the plane had been bombing Turkmen communities which are not ISIS, but are anti Assad. These communities are along the Turkey/Syria border, and have historically enjoyed the protection of Turkey. Now whether the plane actually crossed into Turkish airspace, and whether, as the Turks claim, it was repeatedly warned - well, I don't think we will ever know for sure.

[CloakNDagger]

Note that all I've heard of this is a short NPR spot.

But I've kind of stopped believing a word Russia says.  Russia (to me) has kind of become the pathological liar that comes to the family Thanksgiving celebration and talks about how he got fired from his most recent job for no good reason, and all the other countries kind of nod awkwardly and pass him the vodka.

Again, I haven't read up on this particular incident, so maybe this time the uncle actually didn't do anything shifty to get himself fired.

Actually, in my watching of the situation, I believe them more than I believe anything Obama or the US news media says about them. Don't want to say too much, but an analysis of several news stories have led me to that conclusion. Paying attention to other news sources around the world helps, too. Not everyone is under the US media's sway.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-34368073

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-34910389
"Reports say the brigades work with other opposition armed groups in the northern Latakia countryside, including the FSA, the al-Qaeda affiliated Nusra Front and the Islamist Ahrar al-Sham.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-18048033
The al-Nusra Front's pledge of allegiance to al-Qaeda has ended speculation over the suspected ties between the Syrian jihadist group and the Islamist militant network.

The US Government's continued support for the rebels in Syria - regardless of how bad Assad is - is tantamount to aiding and abetting terrorists. It's probably a violation of US law, and in my opinion is treasonous - and it's supported by both Republicans and Democrats.

[PregnantPornStar]

Well, I think one could fairly speculate that Russia provoked this. Whether or not they did is probably not something we will know. 

However, being that Turkey is part of NATO, the question is "Now what?"  

First, I don't think we (NATO) wants to see a war against Russia.

To further complicate things, Turkey and the Kurds don't have the best relationship and Russia has aligned with Assad, which, unfortunately is the better option in Syria at this point. 

[sawasdee]

Well, I think one could fairly speculate that Russia provoked this. Whether or not they did is probably not something we will know. 

However, being that Turkey is part of NATO, the question is "Now what?"  

First, I don't think we (NATO) wants to see a war against Russia.

To further complicate things, Turkey and the Kurds don't have the best relationship and Russia has aligned with Assad, which, unfortunately is the better option in Syria at this point. 

I don't understand why Assad is the better option? I do not have any in depth knowledge of this particular arena, but with Assad fighting a war on two fronts, why is he the better option? And that's apart from the problems with his regime.Genuine quest for knowledge here.

[PregnantPornStar]

Assad (although terrible) is a better option than ISIS (for Syria or the rest of the world). In no way am I "supporting" Assad, but that is exactly how bad the situation is in Syria. 

[sawasdee]

Assad (although terrible) is a better option than ISIS (for Syria or the rest of the world). In no way am I "supporting" Assad, but that is exactly how bad the situation is in Syria. 

But what about the non ISIS fighters against Assad, including the Turkmen,whom the Russians are bombing? Aren't they a non ISIS alternative? Aren't they the ones that the US< UK, France etc have been arming?Again, no expert here - trying to learn.

[CloakNDagger]

But what about the non ISIS fighters against Assad, including the Turkmen,whom the Russians are bombing? Aren't they a non ISIS alternative? Aren't they the ones that the US< UK, France etc have been arming?Again, no expert here - trying to learn.

Read my previous post, and go find NON-US sources to tell you who they really are. Those anti-Assad units are a mixed bad of bad guys and really bad guys with the possible exception of the Kurds.
For amusement... not an Alex Jones type, but this is an alternative perspective. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JxTVwHXGfvI

[PregnantPornStar]

But what about the non ISIS fighters against Assad, including the Turkmen,whom the Russians are bombing? Aren't they a non ISIS alternative? Aren't they the ones that the US< UK, France etc have been arming?Again, no expert here - trying to learn.

There are Syrian Rebels, but none are "strong" enough to fight ISIS or Assad. The US Spent 500 Million dollars to train local rebels in Syria to fight ISIS and produced a handful of soldiers. Four or five!! 

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/general-austin-us-trained-syrian-rebels-fighting-isis/story?id=33802596

As CnD said, those rebels are a often a mix of bad guys and really bad guys. Many have ended up joining ISIS.

 

[sawasdee]

Read my post, and go find NON-US sources to tell you who they really are. Those anti-Assad units are a mixed bad of bad guys and really bad guys with the possible exception of the Kurds.For amusement... not an Alex Jones type, but this is an alternative perspective. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JxTVwHXGfvI

I do not live in the US, and none of my sources are US based. One of my major sources is Al Jazeera, which I now believe to be perhaps the most balanced international news service, and then backed by BBC (for live breaking news, usually very accurate, unlike CNN), local news sources, and online versions of newspapers, especially The Guardian, and The Independent, neither of which is a lackey of US journalism! And no, I do not live in the UK.

I have just watched the youtube link - oh please! Yes, Turkey is so much in alliance with ISIS that they let them set off bombs in Ankara the other week? The so called links with Turkey, even in this rather laughable video with it's mechanical voiceover, never accuse the government of involvement - and I think it is widely acknowledged that ISIS has allies within Turkey who smuggle prospective recruits over the border.

I'm sorry , but that link wasn't even up to Alex Jones standards.

There are Syrian Rebels, but none are "strong" enough to fight ISIS or Assad. The US Spent 500 Million dollars to train local rebels in Syria to fight ISIS and produced a handful of soldiers. Four or five!! 

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/general-austin-us-trained-syrian-rebels-fighting-isis/story?id=33802596

As CnD said, those rebels are a often a mix of bad guys and really bad guys. Many have ended up joining ISIS.

 

CAn you cite where you found out they are a mix of bad guys and really bad guys? Have searched online, without much luck. Can you give me a start on where to look?

[Anny Nym]

Honestly, if I would have to decide which one of the two to trust less, it would be vest pocket dictator No.2 Erdogan  with his shoddy & shady ISIS supporting.

And I am a bit afraid the NATO now could at least consider to provoke a war with Russia over this incident.

[formergothardite]

Read my previous post, and go find NON-US sources to tell you who they really are. Those anti-Assad units are a mixed bad of bad guys and really bad guys with the possible exception of the Kurds.For amusement... not an Alex Jones type, but this is an alternative perspective. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JxTVwHXGfvI

He seems a bit biased and not a reliable source of info. The subject of Syria is a very complicated one, but getting info from people like this probably isn't a good idea. Alternative perspective doesn't always mean a reliable and honest point of view.

[CloakNDagger]

He seems a bit biased and not a reliable source of info. The subject of Syria is a very complicated one, but getting info from people like this probably isn't a good idea. Alternative perspective doesn't always mean a reliable and honest point of view.

I did say "for amusement"...

[PregnantPornStar]

CAn you cite where you found out they are a mix of bad guys and really bad guys? Have searched online, without much luck. Can you give me a start on where to look?

I am going to site Wiki and a youtube video to give you a bit of an idea of what is going on. The problem is really complex. 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/03/11/isis-affiliates-map_n_6849418.html

http://web.stanford.edu/group/mappingmilitants/cgi-bin/groups/view/1

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_armed_groups_in_the_Syrian_Civil_War

 

 

 

I do not live in the US, and none of my sources are US based. One of my major sources is Al Jazeera, which I now believe to be perhaps the most balanced international news service, and then backed by BBC (for live breaking news, usually very accurate, unlike CNN), local news sources, and online versions of newspapers, especially The Guardian, and The Independent, neither of which is a lackey of US journalism! And no, I do not live in the UK.

 

I honestly don't mean to attack your sources, but al Jazeera has it's own set of controversies. I am not suggesting you not use it, but I also wouldn't exactly call it balanced. Again, I am siting wiki here to simplify things. It is state-funded, so that alone raises some questions. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Jazeera_controversies_and_criticism

My point is that it is almost impossible to find balance in any media/news service. 

 

 

[sawasdee]

I am going to site Wiki and a youtube video to give you a bit of an idea of what is going on. The problem is really complex. 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/03/11/isis-affiliates-map_n_6849418.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_armed_groups_in_the_Syrian_Civil_War

 

 

 

Well, I looked at both and it didn't help much. The Huff Po link was about groups such as Boko Harum, and not about

Syria's complexity. The wikipedia link was more helpful, but there were several unsubstantiated statements - what I would designate as opinions, rather than facts - and the added Stanford link seems to be wholly about the rise of ISIS, and not the opposition. I'm sorry if I am being stupid, but I still have not found the evidence that you seem to have of the hostile to the west diversity of the anti Assad, anti ISIS groups. These links do not seem to me to provide any. If I am missing something (because I do actually speed read) would you please quote it to me? Thank you.

[PregnantPornStar]

Well, I looked at both and it didn't help much. The

In 12 minutes? 

[CloakNDagger]

Honestly, you have to start digging deeper and checking into various international forums, research for yourself, and try to find contacts in the countries where things are actually happening. That, and ask yourself questions about the stories you read. Sometimes a very simple misinterpretation of "facts" can significantly twist a news story.

[Arete]

The Turkish PM, Edrogan, is an Islamist who is quite unapologetic about his plans to dismantle the secular traditions in government originally developed by Attaturk, the founder of modern Turkey.  He has already weakened the military which has traditionally been the guardian of Turkey's secular nature.  He can't be trust.  Unfortunately, neither can Putin.

[CloakNDagger]

The conflict may also be showing that there are big issues in Washington, DC. Republican warhawks and others in favor of global conflict may have powerful strings to tug on even President Obama...

https://www.rt.com/op-edge/322307-us-obama-generals-g20-putin/

 

[SpoonfulOSugar]

Here is an analysis of the incident by a retired US Navy Commander:

http://news.usni.org/2015/11/24/analysis-implications-of-turkish-shoot-down-of-russian-warplane

He points out some of the particular issues with this incident - very fact-based.

[OkToBeTakei]

Wiki and you-tube? Jesus wept.

 

 

[latraviata]

In 12 minutes? 

Fantastic, demanding sources, when sources are provided, asking for quotes from the sources, because obviously one doesn't understand a word of it, subsequently the oracle of Star Trek disqualifies the sources. The rest is silence......

 

[sawasdee]

Fantastic, demanding sources, when sources are provided, asking for quotes from the sources, because obviously one doesn't understand a word of it, subsequently the oracle of Star Trek disqualifies the sources. The rest is silence......

 

if you can quote from those sources substantiating PPS's claims, I would appreciate it, as I could find no substantiation in there. I don't understand citing sources which do not advance your argument.

[latraviata]

Well, if the  worldview of the simplistic dichotomy of right and left, ergo... right is bad so racist and left is right so Gutmensch, then anything beyond that or facts, are hard to understand!