Teri Maxwell's latest Mom's Corner-Depression and Scheduling

[SPHASH]

No thank you Teri. I don't need any advice from you on how to handle depression, which I don't have.

[anjulibai]

The Schedule Makes Decisions

Well, there it is, Teri outright saying she schedules so she doesn't have to think.

[treemom]

I have depression (well managed) secondary to my generalized anxiety disorder (also well managed) and I still don't need her advice.

I believe in first consulting medical doctors for medical problems. Not religious advisors who are part of a cult.

[treemom]

I was catching up on mom's corners, I a, quite behind and I read this. articles.titus2.com/stress-busters-part-3/

Yeah, not sure Jesus helps solve pc issues. Also, your God is a jerk Steve.

[mango_fandango]

I was catching up on mom's corners, I a, quite behind and I read this. articles.titus2.com/stress-busters-part-3/

Yeah, not sure Jesus helps solve pc issues. Also, your God is a jerk Steve.

What I find weird is that Teri mentioned she was nursing two of the girls who had a stomach virus. Part of me thinks that it's nice Teri still cares for her daughters, but then part of me also thinks they're a little old to be "nursed" by Teri. The use of the word "nursing" almost confused me- don't fundies (and others) usually use that term w/r/t breastfeeding? (Oh God. BAD mental image. :brain-bleach: ) Sarah was likely one of them (roughly 2 in 3 chance, if my math serves me right)- she's over 30 years old. Most young women, even fundies, are well out of the house by then. Can Sarah not look after herself? Or is she perpetually going to be babied by Teri?

[thoughtful]

When I asked the Lord for help, He began to teach me to schedule

Really, Teri? I think you just worked it out, as you wrote:

I started putting together a daily schedule to help direct my time usage, and also the children’s. I used a paper and notebook. There was much erasing and rewriting, but it gave me a basis for my day.

God didn't send you messages to try to schedule, then decide what He told you was wrong, and tell you to change it, again and again, until you found the right schedule. You figured that out using trial and error, just like any other human.

Honestly, if I was a believer, I think I'd be offended at her claim that God directly taught her to schedule, not to mention that He seems to have kept screwing it up.

Since I'm not, I just think it's strange, and a weird combination of pitiful and arrogant -- she's too meek to take credit for doing something, but claims that God speaks directly to her, busily directing her schedule while others get cancer and die from war or starvation. :shrug:

[YoshiCat]

What I find weird is that Teri mentioned she was nursing two of the girls who had a stomach virus. Part of me thinks that it's nice Teri still cares for her daughters, but then part of me also thinks they're a little old to be "nursed" by Teri. The use of the word "nursing" almost confused me- don't fundies (and others) usually use that term w/r/t breastfeeding? (Oh God. BAD mental image. :brain-bleach: ) Sarah was likely one of them (roughly 2 in 3 chance, if my math serves me right)- she's over 30 years old. Most young women, even fundies, are well out of the house by then. Can Sarah not look after herself? Or is she perpetually going to be babied by Teri?

I don't think there's anything weird or wrong with taking care of an adult who's sick. My dad would make and deliver chicken broth for me and my sister when we were sick and we were in our 30 (but then he retired to Florida). My husband and I take care of each other when we're sick and really fuss over each other. It's nice just to have ice water delivered rather than having to get out of bed and get it yourself.

[blessalessi]

Here's a link to the article on scheduling and depression: articles.titus2.com/a-schedule-can-help-with-depression/

I don't have any problem in principle with the idea that a schedule can help with depression.

12 years though - sheesh! God made Teri wait a long time for the schedule to work. Your "problems" could have grown up and stopped being problems in that length of time. Oh..... wait. :whistle:

[thoughtful]

I know people who have gotten advice about handling things in small increments, using scheduling just to keep going, and giving themselves credit for each seemingly small achievement, when also getting proper treatment for depression. That, in itself, is not a bad thing, and can be very helpful.

It's just that Teri eschews the other things that might help. Scheduling, honoring the headship, prayer, and imagining that God and Jesus are busy trying to cure her -- that's the entire treatment in Teri's clinic.

I can also see how adults may cherish another adult's care and doting when sick -- I know lots of otherwise independent people who do.

But, as ever, it's the lack of choice that makes it a Maxwell thing. If a Maxwell happens to be the type that hunkers down and wants to be alone when ill (like I do), they are probably SOL -- I imagine that someone will hover whether they want it or not. Even if that was their inclination naturally, like every other bit of personality, it has probably been guilted and drilled out of them by now -- they'd damn well better appreciate being nursed.

[Dru]

Well, there it is, Teri outright saying she schedules so she doesn't have to think.

Let's be honest, thinking is discouraged in Maxhell as a rule.

[blessalessi]

Let's be honest, thinking is discouraged in Maxhell as a rule.

She has said the same thing about the Punishment Chart she used to use with the kids. The sins and consequences were all laid out, so it wasn't Teri making the kids eat dry crusts, or doing to them whatever the number of wooden sticks on the chart implied, it was THE CHART that made the decisions. Because Jesus Stevus.

[salex]

She has said the same thing about the Punishment Chart she used to use with the kids. The sins and consequences were all laid out, so it wasn't Teri making the kids eat dry crusts, or doing to them whatever the number of wooden sticks on the chart implied, it was THE CHART that made the decisions. Because Jesus Stevus.

What! While I should not be surprised, still, this is just horrible to me. She and Steve basically managed to take every bit of humanity out of the raising of their children, allowing them to treat them however they chose while abdicating themselves of any responsibility for the treatment. Terry was basically "Just following orders"?

As creepy as the Maxwells have always seemed, this punishment chart just gets to me.... it is so alien to me, whose parents truly did guide my siblings and me through childhood based on what we most needed at the time--but then, in Maxhell, children are not individuals, they are part of the unit.

[Eternalbluepearl]

Also, your God is a jerk Steve.

Steve's god is Steve. :)

[blessalessi]

The scariest thing to me about Steve Maxwell and Jimbob Duggar is that they openly share stories of their own significant anger problems, along with solutions that should horrify anyone who is vaguely emotionally connected with their children.

IIRC, Steve at some point recognised the fact that he was always angry with his children, and especially at mealtimes, and especially if the children ate with their mouths open. :? So he devised a system where, instead of speaking to them about the behaviour he would hold up a finger, and the child knew that the next offence would lead to them being sent from the table to await "consequences". How to Make Great Conversationalists and Fear-Based Indigestive Problems....?!

Jim Bob Duggar also apparently recognised his own anger problems and his solution was that his children had to be the ones to tap him on the arm to remind him to calm down. I wonder how many times anyone was ever brave enough to do that, having been brought up to display first time obedience, or face the same If/When chart as the Maxwells? :shock:

The thing that gets my goat about all of these evil schedules and books and strategies is that each one promises an outcome that is desirable, and includes a rationale that has a superficial glimmer of common sense underpinning it, to appeal to already-stressed parents who are desperate for help.

Schedules, behaviour charts, 1-2-3 Magic - it's as though the fundies start their business schemes by plagiarising some of the genuinely good material that has been available on the self-help market for decades. But somehow they add a helping of Sin and Jesus and manage to turn out the most horrible instruments of abuse known to man. :evil:

[freejugar]

why is progesterone cream and vitamins ok but not antidepressants?

if they acknoledge that depression is a real illness why not just see a doctor like with any illness?

[freejugar]

I'm 100% sure that Sarah remembers her mom's struggles with depressions because it's written on the Moody books. The Moody mom is always away sleeping.

[Dru]

why is progesterone cream and vitamins ok but not antidepressants?

if they acknoledge that depression is a real illness why not just see a doctor like with any illness?

My guess is because a good deal of Teri's depression is situational and Steve ain't trying to hear that.

[Georgiana]

why is progesterone cream and vitamins ok but not antidepressants?

if they acknoledge that depression is a real illness why not just see a doctor like with any illness?

The stigma against anti-depressants is very real and not just a fundie thing. People often consider them a sign of failure or weakness. A way of escaping your problems rather than managing a real illness. There are many, many people who think that you can and should just "handle" depression without drugs. People who consider depression a real illness, but who don't consider anti-depressants to be a "good" method of managing.

Are there other methods besides medication you can use to manage depression? Yes. And most management plans will incorporate them. However, there are also non-medicinal ways to manage high blood pressure, cholesterol, and many other conditions, but we don't give people flack for taking medications for managing those.

[refugee]

What! While I should not be surprised, still, this is just horrible to me. She and Steve basically managed to take every bit of humanity out of the raising of their children, allowing them to treat them however they chose while abdicating themselves of any responsibility for the treatment. Terry was basically "Just following orders"?

As creepy as the Maxwells have always seemed, this punishment chart just gets to me.... it is so alien to me, whose parents truly did guide my siblings and me through childhood based on what we most needed at the time--but then, in Maxhell, children are not individuals, they are part of the unit.

Yeah. One of the principles, as it was explained to me, is that THE CHART is what your children will blame for the pain of swats and other such "discipline." Because it's the chart that is doing the dictating, not the parent.

But... what?

[refugee]

The scariest thing to me about Steve Maxwell and Jimbob Duggar is that they openly share stories of their own significant anger problems, along with solutions that should horrify anyone who is vaguely emotionally connected with their children.

IIRC, Steve at some point recognised the fact that he was always angry with his children, and especially at mealtimes, and especially if the children ate with their mouths open. :? So he devised a system where, instead of speaking to them about the behaviour he would hold up a finger, and the child knew that the next offence would lead to them being sent from the table to await "consequences". How to Make Great Conversationalists and Fear-Based Indigestive Problems....?!

Jim Bob Duggar also apparently recognised his own anger problems and his solution was that his children had to be the ones to tap him on the arm to remind him to calm down. I wonder how many times anyone was ever brave enough to do that, having been brought up to display first time obedience, or face the same If/When chart as the Maxwells? :shock:

The thing that gets my goat about all of these evil schedules and books and strategies is that each one promises an outcome that is desirable, and includes a rationale that has a superficial glimmer of common sense underpinning it, to appeal to already-stressed parents who are desperate for help.

Schedules, behaviour charts, 1-2-3 Magic - it's as though the fundies start their business schemes by plagiarising some of the genuinely good material that has been available on the self-help market for decades. But somehow they add a helping of Sin and Jesus and manage to turn out the most horrible instruments of abuse known to man. :evil:

Sob. Yes. Having grown up in a seriously dysfunctional home, I was desperate for some sort of mentor. I picked the wrong crowd to hang with.

[blessalessi]

@refugee, do you mind disclosing if the charts were used to punish you as a child, or for you to punish your children?

I don't ask to judge you for any behaviours you might regret. I'm just very curious.

I have read about the Maxwells on a number of places before/alongside the time I found Freejinger and even among Christians the reviews are mixed.

There have always been a solid support of them in some quarters though, and I've often seen attempts to minimise the punishment charts, for example, many Christians have argued that the little wooden sticks that correspond to each misbehaviour, are not really there to indicate the number of spanks.

Can you confirm or explain this part? If they are not there to denote a varying number of swats, then why are the sticks there at all, alongside other consequences such as isolation, bible copying, yard sweeping, etc?

[refugee]

@refugee, do you mind disclosing if the charts were used to punish you as a child, or for you to punish your children?

I don't ask to judge you for any behaviours you might regret. I'm just very curious.

I have read about the Maxwells on a number of places before/alongside the time I found Freejinger and even among Christians the reviews are mixed.

There have always been a solid support of them in some quarters though, and I've often seen attempts to minimise the punishment charts, for example, many Christians have argued that the little wooden sticks that correspond to each misbehaviour, are not really there to indicate the number of spanks.

Can you confirm or explain this part? If they are not there to denote a varying number of swats, then why are the sticks there at all, alongside other consequences such as isolation, bible copying, yard sweeping, etc?

I bought the blank chart, but I could never bring myself to cut out the little wooden spoons and glue them on, or draw them in, or whatever it was you did (long time ago now).

We did start out spanking our children, but found with one of them that it just made the kid angrier and more defiant, so had to get creative about discipline. (I was spanked routinely by my non-christian parents as a child, and didn't know anything else.) I read a book written by a *gasp* psychologist and, desperate, started putting some of his recommendations in practice, and they worked way better than spanking.

That blank Consequences Chart hung on the back of our bedroom door for years. Blank. Mostly forgotten. I think I finally took it down when we got the house ready to sell.

And yes, my understanding was that you glued/drew a wooden spoon for every swat, but the chart-makers left the consequences up to the parents. I want to throw up, typing this, so just a couple more details. You might decide, for example, to apply Tabasco or dish soap to a lying tongue. You might decide hitting a sibling deserved three swats, another infraction might be one swat, or five, depending on how serious/rebellious you thought the infraction was; neglecting a chore meant adding an additional chore or two... it was meant to be individualized and creative.

Now excuse me while I go and try not to throw up.

ETA: The charts I'm talking about actually weren't created by the Pearls or Maxwells, but by the Forsters of Doorposts Ministries. Lots of "helpful" materials to be found there.

[Koala]

I wouldn't be surprised if ATI suggests "discipline" charts too. I had a friend who grew up quiverfull/fundie. Her family was very heavily involved in ATI, and they had a chart that indicated how many times a child would be hit for various offenses. I remember they kept it taped right on the living room wall. At first I didn't know what it meant. It was something like this:

Lying: 3x Proverbs 23:13

I remember going home and looking up the Bible verse and just having a sinking feeling. Just horrific. They also allowed older siblings to "discipline" younger siblings. So very sad.

[blessalessi]

I bought the blank chart, but I could never bring myself to cut out the little wooden spoons and glue them on, or draw them in, or whatever it was you did (long time ago now).

We did start out spanking our children, but found with one of them that it just made the kid angrier and more defiant, so had to get creative about discipline. (I was spanked routinely by my non-christian parents as a child, and didn't know anything else.) I read a book written by a *gasp* psychologist and, desperate, started putting some of his recommendations in practice, and they worked way better than spanking.

That blank Consequences Chart hung on the back of our bedroom door for years. Blank. Mostly forgotten. I think I finally took it down when we got the house ready to sell.

And yes, my understanding was that you glued/drew a wooden spoon for every swat, but the chart-makers left the consequences up to the parents. I want to throw up, typing this, so just a couple more details. You might decide, for example, to apply Tabasco or dish soap to a lying tongue. You might decide hitting a sibling deserved three swats, another infraction might be one swat, or five, depending on how serious/rebellious you thought the infraction was; neglecting a chore meant adding an additional chore or two... it was meant to be individualized and creative.

Now excuse me while I go and try not to throw up.

ETA: The charts I'm talking about actually weren't created by the Pearls or Maxwells, but by the Forsters of Doorposts Ministries. Lots of "helpful" materials to be found there.

I am sorry that you had a hard time as a child, and that you then struggled in parenting. :cry:

Congratulations though on making the journey out of there! :)

Thanks so much for confirming what I thought about the Maxwells. They have long since removed evidence of the spanking stuff from their website, for PR reasons I guess, but there are odd bits on the Wayback machine.

The Doorposts chart is exactly the one they recommend, and they definitely had pictures of those wooden spoons on there when they showed a sample chart, back in the day.

I hope I will be forgiven for quoting this conversation in its entirety because I want to increase the possibility that a questioning Maxwell follower, perhaps an IT On Ramp customer or a reader of Sarah Maxwell's Moody family children's stories may one day google and find themselves led to this page.

Steve and Teri Maxwell of Titus2.com you are lying, hypocritical child abusers. You have utterly failed your own children and you are willfully spreading your hateful ideas around to other young, struggling families. If there is a God, then you can be sure your sins will find you out.

ETA : if/then chart from Doorposts, with wooden spoons visible

The pic is the largest size downloadable.

The behaviour for which their sample chart suggests three swats is for arguments between siblings. The bible verse, is American Standard Version

"A fool's lips enter into contention, And his mouth calleth for stripes."

[salex]

So, we may yet have a book called " Consequences with the Moodys"

Or, "Mom Moody: going through the motions for God."

Since the title "Crime and Punishment" was already taken.