How Josh and Rebekah (Anna's BIL and sister) broke away

[xReems]

Josh has been posting the past week how him and his wife broke away from Gothard's teachings and the struggle they had. He even talks about how him and his wife met and how their courtship went. It's actually pretty insightful and he brings up FJ in his comments, hoping we all get a better understanding of how manipulating Gothard is.

iblpdetox.com

Looks like breaking away from Gothard's teaching is not an easy task but I'm glad they both figured it out and broke away before it was too late.

[mirele]

I feel sorry for Josh. Not because he was in IBLP and got out, but because he managed to work himself into such a mental state that he felt like had to get saved all over again. There's something *wrong* about that to me. I had similar things happen to me when I was younger, but my experience was that they caused a lot of stress and confusion, and I would do whatever it took (say a prayer, whatever) to get out from underneath the mental compulsion. I see the same thing here with Josh. As someone who landed in the hospital due to depression and mental exhaustion, I really, really, REALLY dislike this kind of mental pressure, and to attribute it to the Holy Spirit, well *yuck*.

Maybe that's why I don't do God, Jesus, Christianity or church anymore, because of the mental stress.

[debrand]

I had tremendous problems with the born again mentality. No matter how much people claim that it isn't' works based, it often is works based. I'd rather belong to a religion that claimed, do X, Y or Z than a faith that claimed that I didn't have to do anything but that I needed to show proof of my salvation.

The way that I was taught about salvation was that it you believed, a change would occur in your actions. Your actions had nothing to do with your salvation but how you acted was proof that you were saved.

I was just a sinner. I wasn’t any better than anyone else; if anything I was worse.

I have a lot of respect for the Christians on this board but this I am so glad that I am not a Christian. I know that this type of thinking is supposed to be humbling but for all my faults, I can guarantee that I am better than a serial killer or a child rapist. His doubts about salvation just make me sad for him.

I'm glad that he left his parents belief system though and I really do hope that he finds peace. I wish I could send him a cyber hug

[debrand]

http://iblpdetox.com/my-story/beginnings/

Here is the article that deals with his childhood

This belief was one of the more damaging elements to my psyche growing up. I believed that because I was involved in IBLP I was actually more enlightened that other Christians that had never been exposed to it. I believed myself to be more enlightened than my pastors, Sunday School teachers, and other adults who had never been to the seminars. I keep using the term elitist, but that is what I considered myself. But beyond this, that is what most IBLPers consider of themselves. They have been enlightened into this new way to live life and that is why it becomes easy to have a separatist mentality toward the culture around them. These principles, character qualities, and other “Biblical†steps to success combine to create this highly indoctrinated individual who believes that they have an answer for literally every issue in life.

[tehgoobster]

He should check out the new ex-IBLP site Recovering Grace if he hasn't done so already. A lot of the contributors there have their own websites or blogs, but they write articles for Recovering Grace as well. He'd be an awesome contributor. They're doing a lot of great work over there, and it looks like they're starting to pick up steam. His site is pretty cool and helpful, too, of course. Anyway, for anyone who's interested, here's the Recovering Grace site:

recoveringgrace.org

[luckylassie]

I think it's so relieving when people like Rebekah break away from an oppressive system like A.T.I. I think Bill Gothard has so many blind followers that put the dollars in his bank without thinking for themselves.

[Trynn]

THAT'S why he didn't stay in the religion --his parents weren't strict enough! Shame on them they are going to hElL!1!!!11!11!!

[mnb357]

I read his articles. I think the reason he was able to break free is BECAUSE he was married. This may very well be some seriously strong glue for his marriage. But, it led me to wonder if so many of these youth aren't just waiting for marriage to then make their stand, but, at the same time, (girls especially) are afraid that the members of the opposite sex to whom they are attracted aren't maybe the same way as their parents/church leaders? THAT could be why it's so easy to enforce the no personal/close contact type rules between boys and girls? Read about Jim Jones and Jonestown, and the accounts of former members trying to break free. They even calculated carefully the people they would make eye contact with!

[Kitchen Princess]

I feel really sorry for him, because he still has a long way to go to peace.

[pomology]

I have to say, I commend him for what seems like a tolerant attitude for his gay roommate at UNLV. Yes, he started off being incredibly discriminatory, but for his upbringing and all the garbage I'm sure he was told about gay people, he seems to have started to accept his roommate rather quickly.

I'm kind of curious what his thoughts are on homosexuality today.

[Chrystal-J]

I continued to look at my life and who I had become: no joy, no desire to worship God, no longing for Biblical holiness, no desire to even follow on the legalistic path I had built for myself. No real knowledge of God, and inability to be a spiritual leader in my family. A failure in preaching and deaconship. A failure in faithful study and reading of the Scriptures. A pitiful prayer life. No desire for anything substantial from God. I just wanted to exist. And I wanted God to bless me and give me life. But shouldn’t I have accomplished it all to necessitate God blessing me? Hadn’t I done EVERYTHING right? Hadn’t I dotted every “I†an crossed every “T� What was missing?

This part of his story reminds me so much of my time with the Jehovah Witnesses. It was all about following steps and rules. God didn't seem to factor into the picture very much--other than to say that God would spare you at Armageddon if you did exactly as the JW leaders told you to. It was like an assembly line of faith were they sped up the line and you were expected to do more and more with no end in sight.

[Joykins]

I found very interesting the part about the "addiction to pornography" that he struggled with so much in adolescence that pretty much disappeared as he matured and got married, but so much of his life just seemed run by guilt--for being pretty much a normal teenage male. That guilt was then used by the IBLP program to control him. They had him by the balls.

I had been taught in ATI that any form of excessive physical attraction to the opposite sex (especially at my age) was a severe sin that indicated I was falling into deep perversion

Actually, NO IT IS COMPLETELY NORMAL. It is part of normal male sexual development, by which I mean an interest in sex and pornography, that needs to be dealt with in some way. And he had no other outlet because he wasn't allowed to date and get to know girls, he wasn't allowed to talk about sex with his family, etc.

and there were certain steps I should take to correct this. I followed these steps religiously. I memorized Romans 5-8, Colossians 3, James 1, and Matthew 5-7. I had several “accountability partnersâ€. I confessed the sin to my father on several occasions. We restricted internet usage, removed access to computers, and I made sincere efforts to not think about the female form. I plead the blood of Christ, rebuked Satan, and cried out to God for deliverance from the attraction.

I never found it.

That is because those things don't work well against basic drives.

As this area of lust worsened, I became very sensitive to the mentality of the general population within the IBLP movement that this attraction is a severe weakness in young men which they must overcome in order to be right with God. While I agree with that statement in concept, the way it is understood and dealt with in IBLP groups is somewhat backwards. I began to demand stricter, modest dress code for women around me, both family and friends (no I wasn’t sexually attracted to family, but if they didn’t support my promoting of modesty, it made me look hypocritical). It caused many problems in all of my relationships. During this time, I kept my secret sin to myself except for the occasional confession to my father when the guilt became unbearable. But my awareness and sensitivity of the issue caused me to become even more extreme in my stance against immodesty as this was one area of my life that I felt wasn’t entirely my fault. If other people would be more sensitive to the issue, it wouldn’t be so much of a problem for me! ..or so I thought.

I can't control myself so I'll control the women around me. Patriarchy 101.

[The Archivist]

I can't control myself so I'll control the women around me. Patriarchy 101.

This is exactly what I thought, reading this thing. So fascinating.

[Kitty]

I think I read around here before that many kids in ATI leave as soon as possible, and 'surprisingly' few stick around (either brainwashed or they just don't know how to get out). Why is that not news?

It doesn't surprise me at all though that many ATI alumni don't stick up for themselves until they're married.

[deelaem]

I found very interesting the part about the "addiction to pornography" that he struggled with so much in adolescence that pretty much disappeared as he matured and got married, but so much of his life just seemed run by guilt--for being pretty much a normal teenage male. That guilt was then used by the IBLP program to control him. They had him by the balls.

Actually, NO IT IS COMPLETELY NORMAL. It is part of normal male sexual development, by which I mean an interest in sex and pornography, that needs to be dealt with in some way. And he had no other outlet because he wasn't allowed to date and get to know girls, he wasn't allowed to talk about sex with his family, etc.

That is because those things don't work well against basic drives.

I can't control myself so I'll control the women around me. Patriarchy 101.

I have to disagree that developing boys watching pornography is normal. Sexual urges and feelings are normal, but that doesn't necessarily jump to getting off on watching exploitation and sexual humiliation of women. That happens because pornography is allowed to run rampant in our society and boys and men are taught that this is what sex is about.

I can't control myself so I'll control the women around me. Patriarchy 101

Slight correction there, too. It's not that men can't control themselves, it's that they won't. Fundieism claims it teaches respect for women, but only in the context that they are receptacles for men and their seed. Women are not considered to be fully human, so there is no reason to offer them the respect you'd give to a man. They also assume that women have no choice in sexual matters, they are simply to do what the man tells them to do. Hell, it's like that in most of society, for that matter.

Josh and Rebekah did great in getting away from Gothard, but Josh especially still has huge issues he needs to work through. For instance, look who is doing the writing on this blog. How much do we hear of Rebekah's voice?

[ophelia]

[marmalade]

I wonder if he is not defining porn as the full range of smut out there, but something more like looking at women's naked bodies. For any former ATIers out there, can you confirm, deny or just correct ATI's definition of porn vs. what secularists consider porn.

[Joykins]

I said an interest in pornography is normal, not that an "addiction" (whatever that means) is normal, or that . Show me a teenage boy who is not interested in pornography on some level, and it is probably one of those rare asexual ones. These guys are told it's wrong to masturbate, it's wrong to look at a woman in sexual interest, it's wrong to date, etc. This channels all that sexual energy into things that are easily hidden.

[xReems]

IBLP/ATI makes you fear God, which is why some tend to struggle mentally when they choose to leave that environment. I think that's why Josh struggled so much-both he and Rebekah did not know anything else except what they were taught, which can be difficult to move away from. I know one of my roommate's friend thought she was sinning when she chose to wear pants and cut/dye her hair at first.

According to Josh, many do not leave IBLP until after marriage (he posted this in the comments section). Then again, it looks like Susanna broke away before marriage and at a pretty young age. I know Josh mentioned there was some tension at first with both families but it subsided after. Since Susanna isn't married, I wonder how her parents took it, especially since she's staying with Rebekah and Josh.

It's just refreshing to see that those who grew up in IBLP are coming out and speaking out against Gothard's teachings.

Anderson Cooper, you might want to do some research on this nut job and do a news segment on it.

[deelaem]

I said an interest in pornography is normal, not that an "addiction" (whatever that means) is normal, or that . Show me a teenage boy who is not interested in pornography on some level, and it is probably one of those rare asexual ones. These guys are told it's wrong to masturbate, it's wrong to look at a woman in sexual interest, it's wrong to date, etc. This channels all that sexual energy into things that are easily hidden.

Uh, I never said addiction either, so I'm not sure what that was referring to. And addiction is pretty clearly defined - "the state of being enslaved to a habit or practice or to something that is psychologically or physically habit-forming, as narcotics, to such an extent that its cessation causes severe trauma."

Teenage boys are interested in sex, generally. Interest in sex does not automatically equal an interest in pornography. As I stated before, they look at pornography because that is what is considered acceptable in this society. And if anything, the use of pornography messes up normal sexual development.

I agree that fundie boys are oppressed in their sexuality due to the rigidity of their beliefs. But I don't agree that it's ok to expose them - or any other teenage boy - to pornography as a way to educate them about sex. In an odd way, religion has it more right when it comes to sex - it should be an act of loving connection between two people. I just don't happen to think it needs to be two heterosexual married people.

And I said all that to say this - I still think Josh acts somewhat as a headship in the marriage. It's all he and his wife have known so I'm sure they're going to default to it for a long time. I'm glad they got out of Gothard, but I see some signs of him just substituting with anti-Gothard righteousness.

[masagoroll]

I bet a lot of people do wait until marriage to break free. I was raised in a non-cult, but fundie-lite environment, and I got married at age 20. (Luckily, my parents raised me with only the lip-service idea that wives should be submissive, and I rejected that before I even got engaged. No fundie marriage for me!) I feel like I have blossomed a lot as a person because now I feel completely free of my parents because I am part of my own family unit with only my more liberal husband. Maybe other young adults would feel like that as soon as they became financially independent from their nuclear family, but fundie girls are not really given a chance to become financially independent or leave the home outside of marriage. So it can be their escape.

[marmalade]

I think Josh himself said he had a porn addiction. My question was how he defined porn. Was it just looking at naked girls, which I agree is perfectly normal for any teenage boy, or a desire beyond that for the kinky, which in a movie could be construed by just about anyone as porn.

Somehow I think "porn" in Gothardland is as simple as looking at boobies.

[xReems]

In Gothard world, just looking at an immodest woman is frowned upon and might be considered porn.

[lilwriter85]

I read some of Josh's articles and I think he escaped pretty well. I wonder if he and Rebekah will ever go to the mainstream press about this. I bet they in some ways they are itching to do it, but they probably want to keep peace with Anna and the Duggars.

[CynicMom]

I love how he says he had an internal desire to please God and

I really did want God, whatever that meant. If it meant I had to follow a set of rules, then so be it – I would follow the rules. If it meant pleasing this authority figure – so be it, I would do what I could to honor and please that figure. If it meant excessive Scripture memorization, dressing a certain way, talking a certain way, and not participating in x, y, and z, that was what I purposed to do.

And yet he didn't consider himself a True Christian at that time. wtf? He also states that he had a horrible addiction to pornography but wants to make it perfectly clear that he never actually had sex before marriage.

Still a little legalistic, I'm thinking.