Jen Fishburne’s Daughter Natasha Epstein in Big Trouble

[Howl]

Jen's obsession with getting back into BCA does make me question her sanity. I still think she would be back kneeling at Doug's feet if he lifted a finger.

The "Huckabee, Moore Co-Author Accused of Molestation" thread reminded me of the Epstein/Fishburnes, Austin Davis and his wife desperately trying to get back into a church where he: a) deeply disapproved of how it was being run, because it approved of divorce too easily not necessarily because it covered up molestation; b) was not wanted; and c) had been told he would be escorted of the premises for trespassing if he turned up again, and turned up at a service anyway. Only then did Davis go to the authorities about the molestation.

It boggles the mind.

When I was reading the Austin Davis story, courtesy of Wade Burleson, it brought to mind a cross between Jen and the Paul Petry saga (chronicled at JoyfulExiles.com) with Mark Driscoll and the Mars Hill elders. If you go back in time to the earliest Gothard scandals, you'll find the same type of detailed recounting and chronicling, trying to get the word out.

I think when you have a combination of a truly wronged person crossed with a somewhat obsessive personality this is what you get. When did Austin Davis find out about the John Perry molestation? I don't have the strength to go back and sort through that entire thing again.

Yes, the tenaciousness of these people does start to border on a creepy obsession. On the other hand, they were all correct that some form of rotteness/illegality/bad behavior was afoot in church leadership.

The thing these people have in common is that their identity was completely wrapped up in the church and this was true for spouses and family as well.

There is nothing in my life that even comes close to a parallel to their church involvement, but I would imagine that being kicked to the curb was crushing.

[Palimpsest]

When I was reading the Austin Davis story, courtesy of Wade Burleson, it brought to mind a cross between Jen and the Paul Petry saga (chronicled at JoyfulExiles.com) with Mark Driscoll and the Mars Hill elders. If you go back in time to the earliest Gothard scandals, you'll find the same type of detailed recounting and chronicling, trying to get the word out.

I think when you have a combination of a truly wronged person crossed with a somewhat obsessive personality this is what you get. When did Austin Davis find out about the John Perry molestation? I don't have the strength to go back and sort through that entire thing again.

Yes, the tenaciousness of these people does start to border on a creepy obsession. On the other hand, they were all correct that some form of rotteness/illegality/bad behavior was afoot in church leadership.

The thing these people have in common is that their identity was completely wrapped up in the church and this was true for spouses and family as well.

There is nothing in my life that even comes close to a parallel to their church involvement, but I would imagine that being kicked to the curb was crushing.

The Wade Burleson article was a marathon wasn't it!

Per Wade, the victim (Perry's stepdaughter) told Catherine Davis of the molestation in 2007. The Davises reported it to the church authorities immediately, but the church did sod all until 2010 when it expelled Perry. So Perry was prancing around the church with no restrictions for 3 years. Obviously the church didn't report it to secular authorities either, so God only knows how many others Perry has molested.

At some point a light bulb went off in Austin's head that the Perrys were the "safe house" that the first couple's children (forget the name) had been sent to, but Austin was still tut-tutting about the church allowing divorce too easily.

The whole story has only come out now because poor little Austin felt slandered and mistreated by Covenant Presbyterian so he decided to sue. Jesus wept.

Yes, there are definite similarities with Mars Hill and Gothard/IBLP. These other Covenant churches are also full-blown cults in my opinion. What scares me is that Covenant Presbyterian masquerades as almost main-stream. It is not a tiny congregation like BCA.

I do understand that it must be horrible to be thrown out of your chosen cult for daring to question the leadership, but if you've known something is dreadfully wrong for years and only disclose it when you are under pressure yourself - well I have little sympathy! ETA: especially if you are a grown ass adult who self-selected into the cult like Jen, or a supposedly functional person with strong connections to a former Vice President like Davis.

Wade is frantically justifying Austin's godliness for not speaking up sooner because he was playing by sick Church rules.

[Howl]

However, the Davis' did not know about the molestation until 2012. This Buzzfeed article Co-Author Of Mike Huckabee Books Was Accused Of Child Molestation In Two Legal Cases is dated June 10, 2015.

Catherine Davis, the wife of Austin Davis, likewise wrote in a sworn affidavit that during the summer of 2012, she spoke to the accuser, who confirmed the abuse occurred numerous times when the individual was a minor [between the ages of 11 - 13]. Davis said the accuser told her that she broke her silence in 2007 and began telling friends, family members, church leaders, and school officials about what had allegedly occurred.

A copy of a ruling on the appeal (June 23, 2014) of the lawsuit brought by Austin Davis against Covenant Presbyterian can be found here: tba.org/sites/default/files/davisa_06242014.pdf

The plaintiffs (Austin Davis et al.) filed an amendment to the original complaint that states

From 2002 to 2012, the plaintiffs were closely associated with information and circumstances concerning vulnerable children residing at John Perry's residence and the defendant's fraudulent concealment of unlawful child sexual abuse by confessed child molester John Perry without plaintiffs actually possessing knowledge of child molestation by John Perry until 2012.

As far as I can tell, on appeal, all the allegations against Covenant Presbyterian Church were dismissed, with the exception of the Plaintiff's complaint of assault, with costs of appeal assessed against Covenant Presbyterian.

It is a huge damned mess and I am so glad this story broke, even though John Perry is acting, or his PR handlers have advised him to act, like it's ancient history and no big deal.

[Palimpsest]

However, the Davis' did not know about the molestation until 2012. This Buzzfeed article Co-Author Of Mike Huckabee Books Was Accused Of Child Molestation In Two Legal Cases is dated June 10, 2015.

A copy of a ruling on the appeal (June 23, 2014) of the lawsuit brought by Austin Davis against Covenant Presbyterian can be found here: tba.org/sites/default/files/davisa_06242014.pdf

The plaintiffs (Austin Davis et al.) filed an amendment to the original complaint that states

As far as I can tell, on appeal, all the allegations against Covenant Presbyterian Church were dismissed, with the exception of the Plaintiff's complaint of assault, with costs of appeal assessed against Covenant Presbyterian. It is a huge damned mess and I am so glad this story broke, even though John Perry is acting, or his PR handlers have advised him to act, like it's ancient history and no big deal.

Fascinating, and thanks for pointing all that out. I totally agree that it is a huge mess and am disgusted by John Perry's acting like it was no big deal and ancient history.

Those are some weaselly words I bolded in the quote above. I went back and waded through Wade's manifesto again. A couple of corrections to my above post: Perry molested his adopted daughter not his step daughter, and I can't find where Wade said that Catherine was aware of the molestation in 2007. I could have sworn that was in there.

I am still extremely skeptical about the Austins not being aware of the molestation until 2012 and

I still don't feel very sympathetic towards Austin Davis. He could have walked away from the church when he initially resigned in 2006. Why keep "doing a Jen" and whining to get back into the church? I'll put the reasons on the other thread so as not to highjack this one any more. Shall we continue this discussion there. :)

[RosyDaisy]

I have to agree with CnD. Sadly, original inhabitants of Texas and their descendants fought for the Confederacy and became somewhat assimilated into southern culture.

[Howl]

Yes, P, see you over on the John Perry thread. I lost track of how this all ended up in Jen-ville!

Back on topic, I've had multiple conversations with DH over the years; he can't un-tether from the idea of strict personal responsibility vs me seeing addiction as a disease. Having grown up with an alcoholic parent who was never able to get sober, I really do understand addiction as a disease process.

Anyway, this morning I was thinking back to about 30 years ago when I worked as an archaeologist in SW Colorado. We sometimes worked doing inventories of archaeological sites on the Navajo Reservation and in one instance, we had a young (maybe 20?) local Navajo guy working with us. We all really enjoyed him. He was smart, sweet, handsome, charming -- just enjoying life, but very grounded as well. He was a rodeo cowboy with a Corvette parked next to his hogan.

Maybe 3 years later, I ran into him at the local grocery store. He said my name and although I recognized his voice, the person who stood before me was utterly ravaged and looked 20 years older than the person I met only 3 years before -- and that would have been a very hard 20 years. I shared this with my co-workers who had also worked with him and someone told me that he had gotten addicted to meth and had also tried to kill his wife.

Thinking about Jen's daughter and pictures of the murderers and our immediate response is, How could anyone fall so far and be involved with these sleaze bags? Looking at pictures of these guys, you see their eyes and know they have a hole where their soul should be. How could she get to a point where she's helping them dispose of a body?

Meth, heroine, addiction -- they take EVERYTHING away in a most brutal way, but I think meth is the worst. Apparently the "associates" were heavy meth users and it's likely Natasha was a meth user at some level.

It has to be horrible for any parent to watch a child lost to the devastation of addiction.

[DomWackTroll]

Jen is “with†some guy named Jeff lately. They aren’t married and travel around together alone, just the two of them, but that’s okay because as long as it’s not gay...

“First, we went to Waco and I showed him around my favorite cult, Homestead Heritage. (There are many good things about a Christian community, whether you agree with all their doctrines or not. I love the way they live together, love one another, work together, and go through life together.)â€

facebook.com/Jensgems/posts/10207073225736232?pnref=story

Her very favorite cult. Out of oh so many. And she wonders why her daughter has lost her mind and been thrown in the klink.

[ILoveJellybeans]

Jen is “with†some guy named Jeff lately. They aren’t married and travel around together alone, just the two of them, but that’s okay because as long as it’s not gay...

“First, we went to Waco and I showed him around my favorite cult, Homestead Heritage. (There are many good things about a Christian community, whether you agree with all their doctrines or not. I love the way they live together, love one another, work together, and go through life together.)â€

facebook.com/Jensgems/posts/10207073225736232?pnref=story

Her very favorite cult. Out of oh so many. And she wonders why her daughter has lost her mind and been thrown in the klink.

That is just weird. Like really really creepy. I know cults are fascinating, and that is why 99% of us are reading this right now....but does anyone actually have a favourite cult, and like it to the point of taking your boyfriend to look around the compound???? Maybe not accept any kool aid they offer you Jen....

I wonder where her next date will be? To the PP's church? Put a dress on the guy and go to Journey to the Heart? Break into the abandoned VF warehouse and fuck on an abandoned stack of books while wearing some of Doug's costumes?

[DomWackTroll]

From a 2006 article in the San Antonio Current:

“…Alicia, 11, suffers from a neurological disorder called Rett Syndrome, but despite doctors’ predictions that she would never walk or say a word, has slowly developed the ability to do both.â€

http://www.sacurrent.com/sanantonio/tea ... id=2278154

Mayo Clinic definition of Rett’s Syndrome:

http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-cond ... n-20028086

ETA: A 2010 photo of Alicia feeding Natasha's baby:

facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1716648483221&set=a.1594936520498.2091132.1448511048&type=1&theater

[Mary C Doates]

The Aryan Brotherhood is anti-semitic. I am curious about her relationship to Judaism and the Jewish people as well. She wears crosses in most of her pictures. I don't know much about Jen just that she was part of VF and helped uncover DPIAT's crimes. Did she can her husband convert from Judaism to Christianity? Is Natasha ethnically Jewish but religiously not? Several of her co-conspirators are latino and there is also a black co-conspirator. I wonder what their relationship is to the AB.

Well, her father is a piece of work. Check out his charming and tolerant wife, Sarai, on Facebook--she posts under his name, Gidon Yoel Eilat.

(can't seem to link this, which is just as well)

[DomWackTroll]

Well, her father is a piece of work. Check out his charming and tolerant wife, Sarai, on Facebook--she posts under his name, Gidon Yoel Eilat.

(can't seem to link this, which is just as well)

Mary C Doates, thank you! I lost Mark's FB page and have been trying to find it since Natasha got busted. Yeah, his wife is just as crazy as he is.

[Howl]

Well, her father is a piece of work. Check out his charming and tolerant wife, Sarai, on Facebook--she posts under his name, Gidon Yoel Eilat.

That facebook page should come with a hazmat suit; it is a TOTAL toxic spill.

Taking a break for a much needed wipe down after being splattered.

[Mary C Doates]

Mary C Doates, thank you! I lost Mark's FB page and have been trying to find it since Natasha got busted. Yeah, his wife is just as crazy as he is.

Read at your own risk. The hate is really strong on that page...

[DomWackTroll]

"Their" daughter is a chip off the old block. (I'm assuming she's Sarai's and Mark is her stepfather, but she claims him as her father.)

facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=825081017572052&set=a.105033342910160.11143.100002104852347&type=1&theater

[apandaaries]

That facebook page should come with a hazmat suit; it is a TOTAL toxic spill.

Taking a break for a much needed wipe down after being splattered.

ALL of those facebook pages are massive trainwrecks. :wtf: :brain-bleach:

[Burris]

And, sadly, from Part 8 (bolding mine):

It sounds as if N came into contact with a group made of new recruits and of significant and hardened criminals

All I will say when I'm this small phone in the parents are not responsible for the acts of their children.

[DomWackTroll]

Can anyone with real estate experience explain the sales history at this link? Does this mean that Sarai is now the sole owner of the house that used to be Mark and Jen's? Is Mark doing something shady here with the two names, or did he legally change his name? I'm confused.

http://sa.blockshopper.com/property/000 ... ress_creek

Edited for clarity.

[punkiepie]

Can anyone with real estate experience explain the sales history at this link? Does this mean that Sarai is now the sole owner of the house that used to be Mark and Jen's? Is Mark doing something shady here with the two names, or did he legally change his name? I'm confused.

http://sa.blockshopper.com/property/000 ... ress_creek

Edited for clarity.

Not a real estate expert, in fact I hated real estate law, but I did go to law school for three years before I became a nurse. (Just needed to take the Bar) From what I'm seeing, Mark and his wife, as joint owners, sold the house to Mark's wife, as a sole owner. Basically, it's a way of protecting your assets. You see this al lot with the elderly- where they sell their home to one of their children to prevent it from being used as collateral if they needed to go into a nursing home or something akin to that. In this situation, it's shady as hell. Another example of why someone would do this is if they had a business and failed to set it up as an LLC. Without the LLC, the person's private ownings would be considered equity in a trial- meaning it could be used as a source of money if they were found liable in a lawsuit. By selling it to his wife, he prevents that from happening.

But to answer your questions, yes, his wife is now the sole owner of that piece of real estate.

[punkiepie]

"Their" daughter is a chip off the old block. (I'm assuming she's Sarai's and Mark is her stepfather, but she claims him as her father.)

facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=825081017572052&set=a.105033342910160.11143.100002104852347&type=1&theater

OMG, I don't think I've ever seen a personal facebook page as vile as hers. I'm no fan of censorship, but holy hell, how is she allowed to spew such venomous hatred??!!

[mirele]

Jen is “with†some guy named Jeff lately. They aren’t married and travel around together alone, just the two of them, but that’s okay because as long as it’s not gay...

“First, we went to Waco and I showed him around my favorite cult, Homestead Heritage. (There are many good things about a Christian community, whether you agree with all their doctrines or not. I love the way they live together, love one another, work together, and go through life together.)â€

facebook.com/Jensgems/posts/10207073225736232?pnref=story

Her very favorite cult. Out of oh so many. And she wonders why her daughter has lost her mind and been thrown in the klink.

I've hesitated to mention this, but I met Jen in Pensacola last month. I was doing research for a documentary crew on a film about jailed creationist Kent Hovind, and Jen, in her inimitable way, is peripherally involved. So the filmmaker had her in to ask her a few questions about what she wrote on her blog back in 2007. At first, I didn't want to be there because, well, Jen, so I had taken off to my hotel. I went back a few hours later and she hadn't been interviewed yet, so I sat on the floor while the filmmaker asked her questions on camera. I think I might have shaken hands with her. I did not tell her anything about me, or FJ or anything. I just wanted to blend in with the scenery.

(The tl;dr of this is: Hovind's followers claim the judge in his case said that Hovind was "worse than a rapist" at his 2007 sentencing. It's not in the transcript. Jen was on the scene with her kids and she didn't mention it in her blog. It turns out that Kent's son Eric, also a "creation evangelist" told the judge that he thought the judge thought his father was "worse than a rapist" at his mother's sentencing later in 2007. Hovind's followers regularly and tiresomely make this argument and it drives me bonkers.)

[quiversR4hunting]

I've hesitated to mention this, but I met Jen in Pensacola last month. I was doing research for a documentary crew on a film about jailed creationist Kent Hovind, and Jen, in her inimitable way, is peripherally involved. So the filmmaker had her in to ask her a few questions about what she wrote on her blog back in 2007. At first, I didn't want to be there because, well, Jen, so I had taken off to my hotel. I went back a few hours later and she hadn't been interviewed yet, so I sat on the floor while the filmmaker asked her questions on camera. I think I might have shaken hands with her. I did not tell her anything about me, or FJ or anything. I just wanted to blend in with the scenery.

(The tl;dr of this is: Hovind's followers claim the judge in his case said that Hovind was "worse than a rapist" at his 2007 sentencing. It's not in the transcript. Jen was on the scene with her kids and she didn't mention it in her blog. It turns out that Kent's son Eric, also a "creation evangelist" told the judge that he thought the judge thought his father was "worse than a rapist" at his mother's sentencing later in 2007. Hovind's followers regularly and tiresomely make this argument and it drives me bonkers.)

Jen is attracted to and attracts a special kind of crazy. wow.

[Howl]

Just took a few minutes to look up Natasha's arrest record. One showed up on May 22 for possession of a controlled substance less than 1 gram and evading arrest.

The June 6 record shows another arrest with 2 possessions of a controlled substance less than TH (whatever that is) and ALTER/DESTR/CONCEAL

PENAL CODE/TITLE 8. OFFENSES AGAINST PUBLIC ADMINISTRATION/

CHAPTER 37. PERJURY AND OTHER FALSIFICATION

Sec. 37.09. TAMPERING WITH OR FABRICATING PHYSICAL EVIDENCE. (a) A person commits an offense if, knowing that an investigation or official proceeding is pending or in progress

© An offense under Subsection (a) or Subsection (d)(1) is a felony of the third degree, unless the thing altered, destroyed, or concealed is a human corpse, in which case the offense is a felony of the second degree.

(d) A person commits an offense if the person:

(2) observes a human corpse under circumstances in which a reasonable person would believe that an offense had been committed, knows or reasonably should know that a law enforcement agency is not aware of the existence of or location of the corpse, and fails to report the existence of and location of the corpse to a law enforcement agency.

I think I've selected the correct sections of the penal code above, but who knows.

Her bail is $150,000

[DomWackTroll]

Jen is now running around with a broken foot wrapped in an Ace bandage because “I am not about to pay those astronomical medical bills today unless I absolutely have to.â€

facebook.com/Jensgems/posts/10207136007985749?pnref=story

Jeff, Jeff, and more Jeff... Nothing about taking care of her grandchild.

[ILoveJellybeans]

Jen is now running around with a broken foot wrapped in an Ace bandage because “I am not about to pay those astronomical medical bills today unless I absolutely have to.â€

facebook.com/Jensgems/posts/10207136007985749?pnref=story

Jeff, Jeff, and more Jeff... Nothing about taking care of her grandchild.

Really?????

Its kinda sickening that in America there are people who would rather try and heal a broken foot by themselves rather than get stuck with huge medical bills.

[DomWackTroll]

Really?????

Its kinda sickening that in America there are people who would rather try and heal a broken foot by themselves rather than get stuck with huge medical bills.

Agreed, but Jen would be the first to tell you that the US government owes its people nothing but the "freedom" to suffer. So let her suffer.