Arkansas Midwife Loses License - Mother Speaks Out Merged

[Buzzard]

I posted this in a Jessa is pregnant thread but before we knew that she had been revoked.

It took me a while but here's the post about the delivery in Feb. 2014

We are in need of prayers, positive thoughts and a miracle! On Tuesday of this week, sweet Jozzie was born at 5:32 am. Around 7 am, she began to show signs of respiratory distress and was transported to the local hospital. The pediatrician took xray that showed no signs of infection, just that she had premature lungs. By 1pm, her blood pressure bottomed out and was life flighted to Children's. After 48 hours, she is on ECMO , with seizures and a brain bleed. Mama did EVERYTHING she was advised as far as antibiotic treatment, but Jozzie still has Group B Strep. Our sweet girl is fighting for her life... Please send up prayers for her and especially her parents who are physically and emotionally exhausted! Love and Health to all!

Feb 2015 she posted this on her personal page

WARNING- Honest Post.

One year ago today, my world was rocked and changed forever.. No, I didn't get married, no- I didn't have a baby , no - no one died.. Thankfully!

A year ago, a very sick baby was in my hands. She gave me mixed signals, she looked me in the eye for the last time for another 3 weeks ... I made the best decisions I could; I fought for a mother's right to birth where she wanted, I fought for my right to make the call...The journey that came afterward was excruciating and has, honestly, left me scarred. The year seemed so dark and lonely -- only to leave me feeling betrayed. I am so grateful to God for his miracles, even in this modern day. I am grateful for His mercy and grace ! I am thankful for healing . I am thankful that she is a beautiful 1yr old ... And I am still standing. Happy Birthday Beautiful!

And this in June 2015

Meeting is over , it didn't go over well but I expected nothing other than that- It was in regard to Baby Jozzie and in the end , I was told that I was negligent ...so sad. I will cry and sleep this off and keep doing what I love to do as long as I am able ! Prayers are appreciated .. Love to all

FFS its not her "right" to make ANY call. Its her DUTY to act in the best interest of the mother and child. She has no rights in the matter and clearly, whatever call she made was the wrong one.

Wild speculation here - Considering this was a year ago, could Jana and Jill have been present during labor/birth and thats why their licenses were pulled as well?

[halcionne]

FFS its not her "right" to make ANY call. Its her DUTY to act in the best interest of the mother and child. She has no rights in the matter and clearly, whatever call she made was the wrong one.

Wild speculation here - Considering this was a year ago, could Jana and Jill have been present during labor/birth and thats why their licenses were pulled as well?

I'm curious about that, too. The baby seems to have been born sometime in the early morning of Feb 18, 2014. Can anyone determine Jill and Jana's whereabouts in the days leading up to then?

[Buzzard]

I'm curious about that, too. The baby seems to have been born sometime in the early morning of Feb 18, 2014. Can anyone determine Jill and Jana's whereabouts in the days leading up to then?

I believe it predates her instagram so I dont think we can pinpoint it. You would think that Jana and Jill Duggar losing their midwife licenses would warrant a statement, especially considering they keep billing JIll as a "student midwife" in People.

[halcionne]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_19 ... s#Season_8

Rough timeline for early 2014 here. It's a starting point, at least.

[grandmadugger]

Who was Jill's midwife? I'm sure her name's mentioned somewhere around here, but I'm damned if I can find it. I want to vet her, too. In the Jill thread, of course. ;)

Well it had to be either Joy Coonfield or Lucy Ferguson because that's who Debora Query works under. We know Mrs. Query was shown on TV.

[halcionne]

Well it had to be either Joy Coonfield or Lucy Ferguson because that's who Debora Query works under. We know Mrs. Query was shown on TV.

I can't do it. They are too crunchy and too christian for me. :lol:

[gilora]

Losing your license is a big deal. Something stinks.

As for Jill, I'm glad she won't be inflicting her "skills" on the public.

[halcionne]

Losing your license is a big deal. Something stinks.

As for Jill, I'm glad she won't be inflicting her "skills" on the public.

Agreed. Can she apply for reinstatement after a time? I got through a chunk of the rules and regs, but lost interest before I saw anything that spoke to disciplinary actions.

[iknowright]

So her license is revoked in one state due to negligence. But she's free to keep doing this in another state?? Yikes.

There are NO national standardized practicing procedures for Practical Midwives (whether "certified" or "licensed"). They vary so much state by state and some go underground and practice off the radar anyway. There is no national overseeing body the way that physicians and nurses are overseen. Sorry but "MANA" doesn't cut it.

People are SO confused in this country with the term "midwife." Many people think that the all midwives are equivalent. That is not the case. The ONLY highly educated and skilled type of midwife in the U.S. are Certified NURSE Midwives who practice with an overseeing OB.

So, yes, if Vanessa lost her "Arkansas license" she can definitely EASILY practice in another state and super quick too.

Jill does have an interesting problem and it seems the fame actually will force her to not doing something high risk for the next child she will most certainly have. I am certain she will absolutely want a VBAC at home. This is problematic. It's against the law in Arkansas. For women who insisted going this route, that wouldn't matter. They could just go off the grid. However, Jill and her "birth" are now too famous. She will be forced to have a baby in a hospital. I can't see any other way around it UNLESS she goes to another state to give birth in a birthing center. And in some states, a "birthing center" has ZERO oversight and could simply be someone else's home.

[halcionne]

There are NO national standardized practicing procedures for Practical Midwives (whether "certified" or "licensed"). They vary so much state by state and some go underground and practice off the radar anyway. There is no national overseeing body the way that physicians and nurses are overseen. Sorry but "MANA" doesn't cut it.

People are SO confused in this country with the term "midwife." Many people think that the all midwives are equivalent. That is not the case. The ONLY highly educated and skilled type of midwife in the U.S. are Certified NURSE Midwives who practice with an overseeing OB.

So, yes, if Vanessa lost her "Arkansas license" she can definitely EASILY practice in another state and super quick too.

Jill does have an interesting problem and it seems the fame actually will force her to not doing something high risk for the next child she will most certainly have. I am certain she will absolutely want a VBAC at home. This is problematic. It's against the law in Arkansas. For women who insisted going this route, that wouldn't matter. They could just go off the grid. However, Jill and her "birth" are now too famous. She will be forced to have a baby in a hospital. I can't see any other way around it UNLESS she goes to another state to give birth in a birthing center. And in some states, a "birthing center" has ZERO oversight and could simply be someone else's home.

This is a great comment. I don't know anything about homebirths/midwifery and I don't want to offend folks who are into it, but I was beginning to wonder if the national standard was very meaningful.

I'm alarmed by the bolded. I've been imagining birth centers as something similar to the comfortable and well-appointed outpatient surgery centers we have in my area. :?

edited for word choice

[August]

Is there a link to Jill's birth story? I found a summary online but it was impossible, so I'm wondering what the real story was.

Shouldn't she have been close to graduating after three years? Was she on the verge of flunking out, or too fundie to do real science? :think:

I vote she was flunking. Lay midwives make me want to hit things, and I suspect my pitocin-toting CNM feels the same way.

Halcionne, homebirths and midwifery are not two inextricably linked concepts. If you want to see real midwives in action watch this https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-J2kAwWVWi4

[Buzzard]

There are NO national standardized practicing procedures for Practical Midwives (whether "certified" or "licensed"). They vary so much state by state and some go underground and practice off the radar anyway. There is no national overseeing body the way that physicians and nurses are overseen. Sorry but "MANA" doesn't cut it.

People are SO confused in this country with the term "midwife." Many people think that the all midwives are equivalent. That is not the case. The ONLY highly educated and skilled type of midwife in the U.S. are Certified NURSE Midwives who practice with an overseeing OB.

So, yes, if Vanessa lost her "Arkansas license" she can definitely EASILY practice in another state and super quick too.

Jill does have an interesting problem and it seems the fame actually will force her to not doing something high risk for the next child she will most certainly have. I am certain she will absolutely want a VBAC at home. This is problematic. It's against the law in Arkansas. For women who insisted going this route, that wouldn't matter. They could just go off the grid. However, Jill and her "birth" are now too famous. She will be forced to have a baby in a hospital. I can't see any other way around it UNLESS she goes to another state to give birth in a birthing center. And in some states, a "birthing center" has ZERO oversight and could simply be someone else's home.

Like Josh and Anna or even David and Priss... or a Bates... or any other thousand ATI families that would welcome a duggar doing her duty for the cause...

[DGayle]

I don't think CNMs are allowed to attend homebirths due to the nature of it being at home and them having nursing licenses. Where my kids were born, CNMs couldn't attend homebirths. My LM was perfectly fine and has a decades-long track record and has mentored under Ina May Gaskin. I think LMs get a lot of shit they shouldn't, especially when an outcome could have been different if only the mother had decided different. Not to say there aren't some bad midwives. One of my best friends had a roommate until last week who is a midwife, and to be frank, the woman belongs nowhere near children, and I'm afraid even her own son's going to die before 5.

But as far as Vanessa, if she lost her license entirely, there's something more than mom has GBS and refused meds. Unless it was something really bad, like telling the mom an essential oil is the same thing as an antibiotic, then I doubt this was Vanessa's 1st run-in with trouble.

Jill and Jana being suspended means something. Whatever Vanessa was doing is questionable enough that the state questions if those girls, and other apprentices, were learning dangerous stuff. They can probably reapply for permits under somebody else. I can't see them being permanently banned because of somebody else.

[SassyPants]

Well, don't the Duggars live mere miles from both OK and MO?

[SassyPants]

I can't believe I need to state the obvious, but Jana is not interested in midwifery and Jill was just biding her time until prince Charming came calling. I can't imagine that either one of those girls will be jumping through hoops to get reinstated.

[FakePigtails]

I think Jill would get a lot of shit if she had a home birth outside of a hospital after her c-section, even from the leghumper crowd.

[iknowright]

The birthing centers which ARE attached to hospitals have the same type of oversight that a hospital has. It is the free-standing "birth centers" that have no oversight in my state. Basically, I tell everyone this: if you want a midwife, choose a CNM who works UNDER an OB at a hospital or birth center attached to a hospital.

[halcionne]

Is there a link to Jill's birth story? I found a summary online but it was impossible, so I'm wondering what the real story was.

I vote she was flunking. Lay midwives make me want to hit things, and I suspect my pitocin-toting CNM feels the same way.

Halcionne, homebirths and midwifery are not two inextricably linked concepts. If you want to see real midwives in action watch this https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-J2kAwWVWi4

Thanks for the link--I will check it out.

Jill's birth story was in People, (scans here): viewtopic.php?f=87&t=25642&start=120#p916532 and was discussed throughout that thread.

ETA link

[PennySycamore]

Shouldn't she have been close to graduating after three years? Was she on the verge of flunking out, or too fundie to do real science? :think:

Old hospital based programs, of which there are few left, take 3 years. More common are Associate's degree programs which take 2 years and BSN programs which take 4. I'd expect either on the verge of flunking out or too fundie for real science.

[chaotic life]

Diploma nursing is almost extinct, almost but not quite. Those that are left are very old programs mostly in the Midwest. Iirc, the state with the highest number still around is actually PA. Most have all converted to Associate degrees now. Associate degrees are technically only 2 years of the actual nursing program BUT most people need at least a year to accomplish all the pre-reqs. Bachelor programs are for years. CNEP is 2 years beyond that.

Apprenticeship LM typically takes 3-5 years in states where there is licensure. So, basically it almost certainly took her longer to walk away from nursing school and become a LM than it would have taken to become a CNM. Except, that route would have required an exit exam from nursing school, NCLEX, graduate admissions, comps AND National certification boards.

I am NOT a CNM. However, my general coursework I take with the CNM students. Want to know what I hear EVERY week in EVERY Pharmacology lecture?

"If you have a need to prescribe medications to a pregnant woman, you will be consulting with a physician, whether you are referring on or working collaboratively, you will follow the guidance of your consulting physician on medications in pregnancy."

Well, that and don't ignore this FNP students because the most likely person to see a woman in the first 12 weeks of you, and you will be consulting for maintenance until you get her passed onto a CNM or OB, and you will still collaborate on chronic conditions in your patient.

[Jana814]

Is she the heavy-set woman who threw Jill the bridal shower? I also wonder why Jill didn't use her. Now I see why.

[lovemygsp]

As a lay midwife can she even order meds? What about give IVs? I kind of doubt it and I'd bet that's why she lost her license if it was in fact related to the GBS case.

[halcionne]

As a lay midwife can she even order meds? What about give IVs? I kind of doubt it and I'd bet that's why she lost her license if it was in fact related to the GBS case.

From the rule and regs:

406.02 Antepartum Monitoring

If any of the following PRENATAL conditions are identified, the client must be

examined by a Physician or CNM currently practicing obstetrics. Division clinicians

may accept referrals per Division of Health protocol. A plan of care for the

condition must be established, and execution of the plan must be documented.

Midwives caring for these clients will submit additional required reports. If a

referral is not made or if the clinician advises against home delivery the client must

be transferred.

1. Decreased fetal movement or kick count of less than 10 per hour

2. Positive Group B Strep-CDC approved prophylaxis must be obtained

3. Cervical effacement or dilatation prior to 36 weeks

4. Post term pregnancy greater than 42 weeks (document consult as third risk

assessment and include with report)

5. Primary herpetic outbreak

6. Clients with a previous preterm delivery must be co-managed until 36 weeks

7. Suspected or confirmed fetal death

8. Vaginal bleeding heavier than a normal period

9. Weight loss after the first trimester

10. Abnormal weight gain

11. Symptoms of vaginitis refractory to treatment

12. Symptoms of UTI refractory to treatment

13. Hematocrit of less than 30 or hemoglobin of less than 10

14. Hyperemesis with weight loss

15. Two blood pressure readings of 140/90 or more

16. Size/date discrepancy of 3 or more weeks on two successive exams

17. Positive Coombs

18. Abnormal PAP smear

19. Sexually transmitted disease

20. Ruptured membranes without onset of labor within 18 hours

21. Signs and symptoms of pre-eclampsia

22. Fetal heart rate below 120 or above 160 or irregular while lying on left side

23. Spontaneous rupture of membranes prior to 36 weeks

24. Gestational Diabetes

[countressrascal]

I do not know the licensing laws in AK-but in AZ a LM can not prescribe any type of drugs that require an DEA number, which none of them have. IV antibiotics require the number, also they are not allow to start an IV, this is a national guideline. Also if she lost her license in one state she needs to notify the other states that she holds a license in, also malpractice insurance carrier. In a majority of these cases she will lost her insurance also the other licenses, there are ways that she can get it back. We hope by 2016 we will have national guidelines for LM licensing along with a database, then we are going to working in insurance coverage. A number of LM do not want this because it is going to require more training and over sight. Regarding her students they can transfer their hours and deliveries to another CNM to complete their training as long as they did not attend the birth in question, if they did their number of deliveries will be impacted. I use to do home births however 10+ yrs ago malpractice insurance companies would no longer cover NPNM to do them so we all had to stop.

My issue with some of the LM who do home births, is that their prescreening and regular screening skills are lacking, they do not ask the hard questions. Plus, they rely on the natural cure for everything, which gets them in trouble, case in point. I am working with a LM who got in trouble with the AZ licensing board and I am helping her get her license back however her opinion of traditional medicine is terrible so that is an issue. I am her last hope. I just want to tell her to get her head out of her A**. Some LM are great but others think they know so much more that professional trained medical professionals. Just my 2 cents.

Disclaimer-I am NPNM also PhD in Public Health and practicing Nurse Midwife with more than 25 yrs. Also I teach Midwifery at Satan University aka (ASU) and run a training program for women in developing nations to become Midwives.

[eri]

From that site (bolding mine):

:?

And the bio says she quit after 3 years of nursing school. Interesting.

Holy charlatry.

Yeah, this is why you go with certified midwives who completed their schooling.