Benessa, Jinger, and the Chick Tracts

[Queen]

On 25 februari 2015 at 6:03 PM, eh02 said:

 

Most protestants do not do any type of baptism for babies. I grew up surrounded by fundie-lites and some full-fledged fundies in Baptist and nondemoninational churches. The typical belief was that there's a vague, not really well explained age at which you are "able" to make the choice to accept Jesus, and if you die under that age, it's assumed you go to heaven anyway. Which maybe doesn't make a lot of sense, but a lot of churches don't really emphasize the concept of original sin quite as much - even if they believe we're all sinners, they still don't necessarily believe a child is capable of making a serious commitment to their faith, either.

 

We didn't have any baby baptisms, or even (as far as I can remember) anything where we "dedicated" babies to the church.

 

Most kids who grew up in my pretty conservative churches with me were baptised by 10 or so. It was actually somewhat rare for longtime church members to make it to high school age without being baptized. Jinger might have been talking more about having a "spiritual awakening" kind of moment vs. necessarily being baptized?

I'm supposed to be studying (summer class), but instead I'm reading old threads on FJ...  

Anyways, here in the North of Europe, the Lutherans, i.e. Protestants do baptize infants. It might be a remain from the Catholic era! Some sects, as many call them due to their small numbers over here and their conservative dogma; like the Baptists, wait until puberty/high school age to baptize.

I was less than a month old when I got baptized (Lutheran), and now as an adult I'm a bit mad that they did it to me when I was way too young to give consent. I advocate for adult only (18 years or older) baptizing, since religion is a choice you should be free to make for yourself, it shouldn't be assigned to you. (Although I guess some parents will never really give their children any choice, baptized or not.) When I left the Church at 20 it felt like I was leaving a team I'd been on my entire life. Baptizing was seen as a way to be a member of God's family. It was not a guarantee to Heaven, though. You still had to believe Jesus was the one and only savior, and that he and his father and the holy spirit were one single being because monotheism.

[Bad Wolf]

Episcopal and Presbyterians still baptize babies, though in the Episcopal church, it's not required like it used to be. Mr. Wolf got baptized a   couple of years ago when he was elected to the vestry. I was baptized C of E as a baby.

[VelociRapture]

3 hours ago, Bad Wolf said:

Episcopal and Presbyterians still baptize babies, though in the Episcopal church, it's not required like it used to be. Mr. Wolf got baptized a   couple of years ago when he was elected to the vestry. I was baptized C of E as a baby.

My nephew was just baptized in the Episcopal Church. It was actually a really nice ceremony, mostly because the Pastor is awesome (he also married my sister and BIL.) One part I really liked was that he encouraged the parents to bring the babies up for Communion - because he wants them to know they were welcomed at God's table from the very first day and they always would be.

I also like that they welcome any baptized Christian up for Communion as well and how welcoming they are of the LGBTQ community. It's more inclusive than I'm used to and I'm glad my nephew is going to be raised in that type of open-minded religious environment (which is good considering I'm his Godmother! ) 

4 hours ago, Queen said:

I'm supposed to be studying (summer class), but instead I'm reading old threads on FJ...  

Anyways, here in the North of Europe, the Lutherans, i.e. Protestants do baptize infants. It might be a remain from the Catholic era! Some sects, as many call them due to their small numbers over here and their conservative dogma; like the Baptists, wait until puberty/high school age to baptize.

I was less than a month old when I got baptized (Lutheran), and now as an adult I'm a bit mad that they did it to me when I was way too young to give consent. I advocate for adult only (18 years or older) baptizing, since religion is a choice you should be free to make for yourself, it shouldn't be assigned to you. (Although I guess some parents will never really give their children any choice, baptized or not.) When I left the Church at 20 it felt like I was leaving a team I'd been on my entire life. Baptizing was seen as a way to be a member of God's family. It was not a guarantee to Heaven, though. You still had to believe Jesus was the one and only savior, and that he and his father and the holy spirit were one single being because monotheism.

I always have resented being baptized Catholic as a baby - nothing wrong with being Catholic, I just wish I had been given the choice. Husband and I aren't affiliated with any religion, but we do lean Christian - we likely will raise our kids with Christian holidays, try to teach them about the various major religions, and see what they wind up believing as they grow. As long as they turn out to be decent and respectful people that's all we care about.

We still aren't sure about baptizing our kids. Everyone in our families were baptized as infants, so it would be a pretty big thing if we don't. We really want to try and let our kids figure out their spirituality on their own though, so I think we'll stick with that plan. If our kid tells us at 13 that they want to be baptized into a Church and they can tell us why then I think we could probably respect their decision at that point. Probably not any earlier though.

[xlurker]

35 minutes ago, VelociRapture said:

I always have resented being baptized Catholic as a bab

My kids were baptized Catholic to give them choices!  I am Episcopal, and as noted earlier, we accept everyone, Mr Xlurker is Catholic.  Even though the kids never attended Catholic church, we did this so that if they ever want to get married in a Catholic church it will be easier for them.  I, not being Catholic, have had problems having the kids baptized there as well as being a MOH for a couple of friends.  

[Bad Wolf]

Wolf 2 was married in a catholic church, because his wife's parents insisted, and they were paying. His Episcopal Baptism worked and he didn't have to convert.

[PreciousPantsofDoom]

45 minutes ago, VelociRapture said:

If our kid tells us at 13 that they want to be baptized into a Church and they can tell us why then I think we could probably respect their decision at that point. Probably not any earlier though.

We know some people who have said something similar about their own kids, and, while it seems like a reasonable attitude on the face of it, I think much depends on what you do and what your expectations are.  The couple I'm talking about SAY they want their kids to end up with some kind of religious affiliation that the children will choose for themselves.  Meanwhile, the kids don't ever see the parents following any particular religious/spiritual practice, nor do they talk much about such things. I think the only time the kids have been to any kind of church was for their Grandpa's funeral recently.  How are the kids supposed to miraculously learn about different religions that way, let alone decide to join one?   

 

Then again, I know someone else raised with no particular religion who has become an insufferable fundie-lite.  He was just one of those guys who was searching for something and decided religion was it.   I wish his parents HAD guided him towards something more mainstream so that he wouldn't now do things like give us all tracts from his church  if we run in to him anywhere. He also joined a protest against the quite progressive Transgender  policy our school board came up with.  Dick head. 

[Percy]

We sent our children to catholic school to give them exposure to religion.  They have decided that it is not for them at this stage. The are adults now.

[PreciousPantsofDoom]

Oh, and I got married in a Catholic Church even though I am Anglican.  Didn't need to convert.  Did not have a mass as part of the wedding though, since I would not have been permitted to partake in communion.   If I recall,  there are dispensations that can be made for Catholics who wish to marry somebody from a completely different religious tradition (eg bhuddist) but it is a more complicated process.  

 I do attend mass with my husband from time to time.  At communion time I just go up for a blessing.  If I want communion I have to get off my ass and go to an Anglican church service instead. 

[Childless]

6 hours ago, Queen said:

I'm supposed to be studying (summer class), but instead I'm reading old threads on FJ...  

Anyways, here in the North of Europe, the Lutherans, i.e. Protestants do baptize infants. It might be a remain from the Catholic era! Some sects, as many call them due to their small numbers over here and their conservative dogma; like the Baptists, wait until puberty/high school age to baptize.

I was less than a month old when I got baptized (Lutheran), and now as an adult I'm a bit mad that they did it to me when I was way too young to give consent. I advocate for adult only (18 years or older) baptizing, since religion is a choice you should be free to make for yourself, it shouldn't be assigned to you. (Although I guess some parents will never really give their children any choice, baptized or not.) When I left the Church at 20 it felt like I was leaving a team I'd been on my entire life. Baptizing was seen as a way to be a member of God's family. It was not a guarantee to Heaven, though. You still had to believe Jesus was the one and only savior, and that he and his father and the holy spirit were one single being because monotheism.

United Methodists also baptize infants.

[VelociRapture]

1 hour ago, PreciousPantsofDoom said:

We know some people who have said something similar about their own kids, and, while it seems like a reasonable attitude on the face of it, I think much depends on what you do and what your expectations are.  The couple I'm talking about SAY they want their kids to end up with some kind of religious affiliation that the children will choose for themselves.  Meanwhile, the kids don't ever see the parents following any particular religious/spiritual practice, nor do they talk much about such things. I think the only time the kids have been to any kind of church was for their Grandpa's funeral recently.  How are the kids supposed to miraculously learn about different religions that way, let alone decide to join one?   

 

Then again, I know someone else raised with no particular religion who has become an insufferable fundie-lite.  He was just one of those guys who was searching for something and decided religion was it.   I wish his parents HAD guided him towards something more mainstream so that he wouldn't now do things like give us all tracts from his church  if we run in to him anywhere. He also joined a protest against the quite progressive Transgender  policy our school board came up with.  Dick head. 

We honestly mean it when we say it - if our kids wind up believing something that's fine. If they don't, that's fine too. We only care that they grow to be good, loving, and respectful people. You can do that with or without religion.

I'm hoping to expose them to a variety of beliefs, as well as non-belief, to the best of my ability. I'm still figuring out how best to do that (as well as to teach them about diversity too), but I have some ideas bouncing around. I'll be happy with whatever they wind up believing or not believing, so long as they aren't harming anyone or anything.

(And my brother is Bi and Transgender. So if our kids ever protest like that there'd be serious reprecussions for them, even as adults - Hell knows no fury like a parent pissed at their bigot children. )

1 hour ago, xlurker said:

My kids were baptized Catholic to give them choices!  I am Episcopal, and as noted earlier, we accept everyone, Mr Xlurker is Catholic.  Even though the kids never attended Catholic church, we did this so that if they ever want to get married in a Catholic church it will be easier for them.  I, not being Catholic, have had problems having the kids baptized there as well as being a MOH for a couple of friends.  

Everyone feels differently. Speaking personally here, I feel being baptized that young actually took the choice away from me - I had no say in what beliefs I was taught or exposed to or signed up for. I don't feel right deciding that for my kid without knowing how they would personally feel about it and we can't know that until they're old enough to fully understand what they're agreeing to.

Again, that's just my personal thoughts for us specifically. Other parents, like you, feel differently. It seems for your family, it did offer more of a choice in some ways. As long as your kids are loved and cared for (which I'm sure they are) that's all that really counts.

(Also, interestingly enough none of us kids have been married in the Catholic Church despite us all being born and raised Catholic. My sister was married in the Episcopal Church, my husband and I went with a civil ceremony, and my brother is LGBTQ - so he may not be welcomed there if he ever chooses to marry.)

[EmCatlyn]

7 hours ago, Queen said:

I'm supposed to be studying (summer class), but instead I'm reading old threads on FJ...  

Anyways, here in the North of Europe, the Lutherans, i.e. Protestants do baptize infants. It might be a remain from the Catholic era! Some sects, as many call them due to their small numbers over here and their conservative dogma; like the Baptists, wait until puberty/high school age to baptize.

I was less than a month old when I got baptized (Lutheran), and now as an adult I'm a bit mad that they did it to me when I was way too young to give consent. I advocate for adult only (18 years or older) baptizing, since religion is a choice you should be free to make for yourself, it shouldn't be assigned to you. (Although I guess some parents will never really give their children any choice, baptized or not.) When I left the Church at 20 it felt like I was leaving a team I'd been on my entire life. Baptizing was seen as a way to be a member of God's family. It was not a guarantee to Heaven, though. You still had to believe Jesus was the one and only savior, and that he and his father and the holy spirit were one single being because monotheism.

A lot of Protestant churches  in the US practice infant baptism.  Although Baptists are the largest single Protestant denomination in the US, they are not the majority of Protestants in the US.

Infant Baptism in the Lutheran Church is not a practice "left over from Catholicism."  It has its origins before the Roman and Eastern churches split.   As you say, the logic behind it is that baptism brings the child under the protection of God within the Christian "family."     Episcopalians, Lutherans, Presbytereans, and Methodists are all major denominations that practice infant baptism.

The  Baptist argument against infant baptism is that baptism represents salvation which is only possible when a person can accept Christ as his or her savior.  It has nothing to do with letting kids choose their own religion/determine their own opinions.  As the Duggars and other fundies show, the message the unbaptized unsaved kids get is not that they can choose not to be Christians so much as that if they choose not to be Christians they will go to hell.  

I don't really care if people practice infant baptism or not, but I think it is important to understand that there are two different views of baptism: it is either part of a covenant with God or it is a ceremony that marks  a specific religious experience, the being "born again" in Christ.   

For what it's worth,  in the US, most people who call themselves "Christians" do so because they were baptized as children in either the Catholic Church or one of the Protestant sects that see baptism as a covenant and sacrament. 

[EmCatlyn]

-- Just want to add that my kids were not baptized but I don't think they had more choices than I did, though I was baptized Catholic.  I think that the choice comes from the parents' attitude and the education given to the kid, not the baptism.

 I raised my kids Unitarian and taught them to appreciate the cultural and religious heritage of their Jewish grandparents (my ex-husband was an atheist Jew) as well as the Spanish Catholic tradition from my background and elements of Anglo-American Christianity, etc.. It seems to have worked okay except for the Baptist and Church of Christ schoolmates that tried to convert them and so forth.   But that's in the past.

[wikinggirl]

Another Scandinavian chiming in here. In Norway it's pretty common to baptize infants. It has little to do with religion, it's mostly tradition. We just separated church and state four years ago, and I think although we're not that religious here a lot of people just do it anyways. It's the same with confirmation. Almost everyone I know got confirmated at 14-15, and none of them are religious. I didn't, because I think it's wrong if you're not religious.  

[AlwaysExcited]

In my country we baptize infants partly because it's tradition and partly of belief that it will help/protect them in life (not very religious belief, seems to me to have somewhat pagan origins). Parents must be baptized before kids can be, that's why my parents, me and my brother were all baptized in the same day. Parents left the church soon after, as priest took a job somewhere else and they didn't like the new one (interestingly enough, he later became quite popular even among non-religious people). We didn't do noting particularly religious ever since, my parents went to church once in year, I went to church once in all my teenage years. My mother tried to find some comfort in religion after divorce, concluded that it's not for her; my brother is an atheist; my father somehow manages to hold both strong liking of conservative religion and very secular lifestyle. From all my family members, I am the only one that would actually be interested in religion, but the church I was baptized in, is not very interested in having me. Ok, no, they would like me just fine, but first I need to change my sexuality, and, second, I need to admit that, as a woman, I have certain roles that does not include speaking in church. Oh, I also must abandon the idea that transwomen are women too and that they should have certain rights. Even more, let's just all make a mass hysteria every time a word "trans" appears on media because United States (!) are trying to force us to accept something called "ideology of genderism" or something. Also, the end is coming. Because transpeople.  And, no, we are not talking about fundies. These are mainstream lutherans.  
Ok, I ranted in the wrong thead. But I dont like that my parents baptized me. Mostly it doesn't change anything, but if I accually end up in any religion, it will be very different one.    

[griffin]

when my protestant mother married my catholic father, she was forced to sign something that said she would raise all children catholic and she would not "interfere" with their catholic upbringing. not only that, her two sisters could not be her bridesmaids. she had to have my dad's sisters. and of course we were baptized immediately before we could have any say about it

[Queen]

5 hours ago, AlwaysExcited said:

In my country we baptize infants partly because it's tradition and partly of belief that it will help/protect them in life (not very religious belief, seems to me to have somewhat pagan origins). Parents must be baptized before kids can be, that's why my parents, me and my brother were all baptized in the same day. Parents left the church soon after, as priest took a job somewhere else and they didn't like the new one (interestingly enough, he later became quite popular even among non-religious people). We didn't do noting particularly religious ever since, my parents went to church once in year, I went to church once in all my teenage years. My mother tried to find some comfort in religion after divorce, concluded that it's not for her; my brother is an atheist; my father somehow manages to hold both strong liking of conservative religion and very secular lifestyle. From all my family members, I am the only one that would actually be interested in religion, but the church I was baptized in, is not very interested in having me. Ok, no, they would like me just fine, but first I need to change my sexuality, and, second, I need to admit that, as a woman, I have certain roles that does not include speaking in church. Oh, I also must abandon the idea that transwomen are women too and that they should have certain rights. Even more, let's just all make a mass hysteria every time a word "trans" appears on media because United States (!) are trying to force us to accept something called "ideology of genderism" or something. Also, the end is coming. Because transpeople.  And, no, we are not talking about fundies. These are mainstream lutherans.  
Ok, I ranted in the wrong thead. But I dont like that my parents baptized me. Mostly it doesn't change anything, but if I accually end up in any religion, it will be very different one.    

I'm so sorry that the Church that baptized you doesn't accept you! The anti-lgbtq-propaganda was one of the main reasons I left religion. At least my religious parents and sister don't mind that I'm a lesbian! I'm the rainbow sheep in the family   Lots of support from one lgbtq-sister to another  

The patriarchal culture also made me leave. As you said, there is a huge resistance against women speaking in the Church, and even though my country's Lutheran Church has allowed female priest since 1989, many people still go on and on about how women were never suppossed to lead... *eyeroll*  Not to mention the mysogynist woman-made-from-a-man's-rib-myth! 

[AlwaysExcited]

16 minutes ago, Queen said:

   Lots of support from one lgbtq-sister to another  

Thanks! 

17 minutes ago, Queen said:

The patriarchal culture also made me leave. As you said, there is a huge resistance against women speaking in the Church, and even though my country's Lutheran Church has allowed female priest since 1989, many people still go on and on about how women were never suppossed to lead... *eyeroll*  Not to mention the mysogynist woman-made-from-a-man's-rib-myth! 

One of my country's Lutheran churches (we have two, it's complicated) completely banned female priesthood... THIS YEAR. They allowed it in 80s and had several women as priests. There were no problems, no real reason for that ban, and the church never really explained its decision.

[ADoyle90815]

8 hours ago, Queen said:

I'm so sorry that the Church that baptized you doesn't accept you! The anti-lgbtq-propaganda was one of the main reasons I left religion. At least my religious parents and sister don't mind that I'm a lesbian! I'm the rainbow sheep in the family   Lots of support from one lgbtq-sister to another  

The patriarchal culture also made me leave. As you said, there is a huge resistance against women speaking in the Church, and even though my country's Lutheran Church has allowed female priest since 1989, many people still go on and on about how women were never suppossed to lead... *eyeroll*  Not to mention the mysogynist woman-made-from-a-man's-rib-myth! 

That anti-lgbtq propaganda is also why I don't really participate in organized religion, as a cousin of mine who was baptized Catholic as an infant certainly wouldn't be accepted today because he's gay, and has been married for over a year now. An uncle of mine died of alcoholism because he couldn't be out to my grandparents who were devout Catholics. My grandpa went to Jesuit schools, and was the type of Catholic who went to mass every single day, and it was said that his biggest disappointment was that nobody became a priest.

[Imagine20]

I was raised WELS Lutheran and baptized as an infant, confirmed (became a church member) at 14, and was excommunicated without notice about 5 years ago. 

[Childless]

7 hours ago, Imagine20 said:

I was raised WELS Lutheran and baptized as an infant, confirmed (became a church member) at 14, and was excommunicated without notice about 5 years ago. 

That seems a little harsh.