Alyssa Bates/Webster is wearing PANTS!!

[formergothardite]

I just don't really see her outfits as a huge sign she is becoming an independent woman who is making choices for herself or moving away from the beliefs she was raised with. It is more likely that Gil and Kelly knew she wanted to wear pants and were okay with her marrying a guy who shared the same core beliefs as they did but would allow Alyssa to wear pants.

Now do I think that she and her new husband probably will change as they grow older? Absolutely. Same for the Duggar kids. At this moment, though. I wouldn't be surprised if she still holds the same beliefs of her parents, right down to the idea that Gothard is a great guy. I don't say that because I want her to stay fundie or I can't separate her from her parents, it just is usually takes time and life experience for two cult raised adults to grow out of the beliefs and find their own and she just hasn't had a lot of time to do that.

[Formosa]

I mean, it's true that the kids are married to ATI royalty. That's definitely a strike against their chances of escape, especially Alyssa because of the political connection. I think it says more about Kelly and Gil than the kids, though. And remember, Chad, John, and Brandon were also raised in a cult. It's not unheard of for newly married couples to find their way out of a religious movement together. As far as I know, Chad hasn't taken any steps to become more involved in ATI (what does Chad do, actually?). Time will tell if John has political aspirations of his own, but I sure hope he doesn't because that could ensnare him in the same place that Josh is-- where questioning your religious/political beliefs could lead to an inability to support your family. I worry about Michael being with Brandon because she seems quite submissive and naive and his "good liar" criticism really rubs me the wrong way. He's also older, right? So has had more chance to distance himself and hasn't.

Actually, both Chad and John are older than Brandon.

Chad was born in '87, John in '89 and Brandon in '90, just like Michael.

[jerkit]

I think it's fine to criticize the kids on things they actually do.

But I see (some) of this going on, although this is an exaggerated example:

"I think Chad's a really sweet guy. I like that he's not afraid to have a pink bedroom!"

"I can't believe what a leghumper you are! His dad is on the ATI board! A pink bedroom is nothing compared to the harmful ATI beliefs!"

Well, yeah, that's true. But Chad isn't his dad, so I can't criticize him for his dad's poor, bigoted choice to get that deeply involved in a cult.

This right here is what I'm getting at. Just because someone says the like one aspect of one picture of a fundie does not mean they approve of the entire fundie perspective/lifestyle.

"Alyssa looks super cute in jeans" =/= "I agree with everything Alyssa stands for"

[NachosFlandersStyle]

Why is it that EVERY TIME we talk about the children of fundie parents, people have this need to talk about their parents' beliefs and practices as if the child and the parents are one in the same? Are YOU exactly like your parents? Do you make every single decision your parents made? Do you hold evey single belief your parents do? If you answered no to any of those, why must you feel the need to behave like you cannot separate the beliefs of ones parents from oneself?!

That's a good point, and it seems like the second generation DOES usually drift away. And as times change that may happen more often. The national conversation on stuff like gay rights and feminism is changing pretty fast, and I think by the time Alyssa has a few children the christian right may be in a totally different place.

But there's a difference between saying "I'm hopeful about Alyssa because she has left home and is making her own way in the modern world" and "I am hopeful about Alyssa because she wears jeans, which is proof of progressive thinking."

[Firiel]

I just don't really see her outfits as a huge sign she is becoming an independent woman who is making choices for herself or moving away from the beliefs she was raised with. It is more likely that Gil and Kelly knew she wanted to wear pants and were okay with her marrying a guy who shared the same core beliefs as they did but would allow Alyssa to wear pants.

Now do I think that she and her new husband probably will change as they grow older? Absolutely. Same for the Duggar kids. At this moment, though. I wouldn't be surprised if she still holds the same beliefs of her parents, right down to the idea that Gothard is a great guy. I don't say that because I want her to stay fundie or I can't separate her from her parents, it just is usually takes time and life experience for two cult raised adults to grow out of the beliefs and find their own and she just hasn't had a lot of time to do that.

I do agree with this. I don't think pants = changed core beliefs at all.

But it is a (small) step in questioning everything her parents taught her, which may or may not lead to anything else. And, I mean, she's only 20. I had WAY more opportunities than Alyssa (including a year or two at a liberal Christian university) and was still very much a product of my upbringing at 20.

[Firiel]

BTW... what do Chad and John do for a living? I realized I don't even know!

[Escapefromfundiedom]

I think it's great she's wearing pants and I do think it can be taken as a SMALL sign of her stepping away from her upbringing a bit.

Here's the thing...and maybe some of you posting here don't understand this: when you are raised in this world (ATI/fundie land), you are brainwashed from birth to believe that you have to live a certain way because if you don't, you will most certainly face eternal damnation and hell fire. Even a hint of questioning is met with threats of doom. It's bad. And it is so psychologically oppressive that making a wholesale shift is a difficult and VERY lengthy process.

When my husband and I started questioning the fundamentalist beliefs of our church, it was a much easier process for him to part ways because he hadn't been raised fundie. I had decades of programming telling me that defying our church elders or rejecting certain tenets of our religion, that I was going to hell. It took about 2 years of intellectual detoxing and some good therapy to get past those fears.

So it is never as simple as moving out of mom and dad's house and changing your wardrobe. Giving up the skirts only dress code is a step in the right direction. It means she's most likely rethinking some of those petty dogmas her parents and ATI turned into Essentials. That's good! Does it mean she'll give up some of the more core beliefs of her religion? No, not really. But it does mean she's moving in a direction where she has more freedom in her daily life (it's freedom to her - maybe not to us, but to someone who grew up with almost zero choices, it's freedom) - and sometimes tasting that kind of freedom has a snowball effect. :)

I feel like some people here at FJ act as if the only acceptable outcome for fundie offspring is if they become gay marriage, abortion supporting leftists. As others have said, if Alyssa can even reach a point where she recognizes that her continued ability to live the way she believes is right is directly linked to respecting other people's ability to live the way *they* believe is right I think her daughter stands a chance of having a much better, free-er life than she did.

[Ralar]

The thing is, I really doubt Alyssa would have made those choices to wear pants and sleeveless shirts, no matter how much she wanted to do so, if her husband didn't approve of it. Do you really think she would have stood up to her new husband, told him she was not going to be under his authority and was going to wear clothing he viewed as sinful and immodest? I think she married a man she knew would let her wear pants because she knew that if she didn't she would be stuck wearing skirts because the man still gets to make the choices, not the woman.

She married a man with views similar to her own. How ingenious! Who would have ever thought . . . .

[nelliebelle1197]

Now this is actually a thoughtful discussion!

[Majessasticpearls]

I do believe that you can hold conservative beliefs and still be a kind,trustworthy person. (I am not talking about those as hateful and radical as Steven Anderson,more so just your average conservative.)My co-workers brother is gay,and she still prays everyday that he will change,but she is one of the sweetest & most fun person to be around. It's a hard thing to wrap your head around,and I still am a bit undecided on where I lay-You see people who are sweet,fun,and kind like Erin Bates,but then you see them attempting to enforce their beliefs on others and restrict their rights,or more subtlety make gay people feel awful with the whole "hate the sin,love the sinner" act.

[halcionne]

Actually, both Chad and John are older than Brandon.

Chad was born in '87, John in '89 and Brandon in '90, just like Michael.

Do you have sources for these DOBs? I ask because they don't match mine.

[mollysmom]

I was raised in an ultra fundie family & when I got married I started wearing pants & sleeveless tops, etc. because those were my parents rules that I had to follow since I was living under their roof. Believe it or not, that was one of the hardest things I have ever done.....go against everything I was taught growing up. (I was actually taught that I'd go to hell if I wore pants :roll: ) Anyway all that to say, in fundie land, that is a HUGE step and I am so happy she did that!!!!!!

[toejamflipflop]

Did Kelly ever enforce a strict dress code like Michelle does? I also say good for Alyssa. She looks lovely in that picture. I think Kelly is more in tune with modern day dress which she realizes can be tasteful, pretty and modest at the same time without covering the body in a full burka or a long prairie dress.

[BrownieMomma]

I attend a Pentecostal church. Skirts for women at all times. (Odd how it seems to really be skirts that are expected, not so much dresses but I digress).

I attend this church but I do not consider myself Pentecostal. My ebil self is sitting here at work, divorced, no headship, wearing pants. Also have a college degree, working on a masters and CPA.

Ennywho, in my world, of which there are ghosts of Gothard although ATI is not actively followed, for a young married woman to wear a pair of jeans would simply NOT HAPPEN. Jean skirts, please and thank you.

To me, this signifies a huge break away, as it would should I see one of our young moms out and about in jeans or shorts, much less taking pics and posting them up for the world to see.

That young woman radiates happiness and ease, as does her husband. What a joyful time for them.

Crossing fingers for them to find their way out, after all Gil and Kelly weren't born to it, they chose it. Maybe their kids can choose to be more like pre-ATI Gil and Kelly.

[ILoveJellybeans]

She looks lovely and happy :)

[Formosa]

Do you have sources for these DOBs? I ask because they don't match mine.

What are the dates you have? The ages have been mentioned in comments on the Bates Blog and I can through them again if you want but it's a lot to look through. When Brandon and Michael started courting, Kelly answered in a comment that both were 24 years old.

Edit: Lily's and Ellie's new Bates Blog mentions Chad and John's birth dates.

batesfamilyblog.com/p/birthdays.html

Edit 2:

Brandon's age in the comments (24 yrs old , January 3rd 2014)

thebatesfamily.com/love-in-the-air/

[Formosa]

Food for thought:

Alyssa attended college just to please her mom but was glad to quit and start planning her wedding. She was really looking forward to being a wife and mentioned in the ABC special that she didn't want to start working because she would quit anyway when she'd get pregnant.

She occasionally wears pants now.

Erin was very much into her college education, even though she was scared at first if she'd be able to keep up with the other non-home-schooled students. She got a bachelor's degree and graduated magna cum laude with honors, even though she got married and had her first miscarriage in the meantime.

She is dresses-only (as far as we know).

Just sayin'.

BTW I am totally fine with both Alyssa's choice to wear pants as well as to be a stay-at-home mom at 20 if she wants to. I just think it's odd that people make her wearing pants to be this mind-blowing attitude change.

The Websters wear pants. They are still ATI. The Duggar's friend Laura (who is very into ATI) wears pants and she is best friends with Tori Webster. Tori Webster is ATI-involved. Dakota Paine even wears shorts and she is also very ATI-involved. Brandon Keilen's sisters wear pants sometimes and are ATI involved. It's really not about dresses VS pants.

[HereticHick]

She looks lovely and happy :)

I'm sorry, but I believe we are now morally obligated to point at you from the sidelines and scream "leghumper" :?

PS Last month I saw (now former) Rep. Michele Bachmann in the hall and told her I liked her shoes. Do I think she is batshit crazy? Oh hell yes. I've been working on Capitol Hill for almost a quarter century--I know crazy when I see it. I

But still, they were really nice shoes.

[nelliebelle1197]

You should have asked if Marcus picked them out for her. :doh:

[Kira]

Food for thought:

Alyssa attended college just to please her mom but was glad to quit and start planning her wedding. She was really looking forward to being a wife and mentioned in the ABC special that she didn't want to start working because she would quit anyway when she'd get pregnant.

She occasionally wears pants now.

Erin was very much into her college education, even though she was scared at first if she'd be able to keep up with the other non-home-schooled students. She got a bachelor's degree and graduated magna cum laude with honors, even though she got married and had her first miscarriage in the meantime.

She is dresses-only (as far as we know).

Just sayin'.

BTW I am totally fine with both Alyssa's choice to wear pants as well as to be a stay-at-home mom at 20 if she wants to.I just think it's odd that people make her wearing pants to be this mind-blowing attitude change

The Websters wear pants. They are still ATI. The Duggar's friend Laura (who is very into ATI) wears pants and she is best friends with Tori Webster. Tori Webster is ATI-involved. Dakota Paine even wears shorts and she is also very ATI-involved. Brandon Keilen's sisters wear pants sometimes and are ATI involved. It's really not about dresses VS pants.

A year or two ago, someone found the blog of a :cray-cray: fundie mother who could barely feed or clothe her many children. There were actually a comment(s) saying "at least she was pants" :|. Everything will be fine because she wears pants :doh:

[Coco]

i still maintain that one can be pragmatic and yet hopeful for change at the same time. my family was at the same level as the duggars for a time, even involved in ati. nowadays, my parents are divorced and remarried and they drink and even swear, my mum wears pants, and all sorts of things that would make their past selves clutch their figurative pearls. even i have come a long way from where i thought i would have been headed at the time. so, i maintain a certain level of hope, because despite them and their beliefs, they're human beings. and if my personal journey has taught me anything, it's that we are capable of great change, and that we never truly stop changing and growing as our lives progress. that is part of what makes life deliciously unpredictable.

sorry, i waxed a bit philosophical there. tl;dr, i don't think being hopeful totally cancels out being practical. and i'll understand if others choose not to hope at all, but i will.

:clap: :clap: :clap:

and how awesome would it be for a famous fundie to see the light!

[halcionne]

What are the dates you have? The ages have been mentioned in comments on the Bates Blog and I can through them again if you want but it's a lot to look through. When Brandon and Michael started courting, Kelly answered in a comment that both were 24 years old.

Edit: Lily's and Ellie's new Bates Blog mentions Chad and John's birth dates.

batesfamilyblog.com/p/birthdays.html

Edit 2:

Brandon's age in the comments (24 yrs old , January 3rd 2014)

thebatesfamily.com/love-in-the-air/

FJ ate my reply to this comment. Here's what I have:

Chad Paine (and Tabitha--twins but I'm not sure about this) 4/30/85 4/18/87 per allaboutthebates.blogspot.com/2014/06/updated-birthdays-list.html but idk where this blogger got this info

John Webster 11/21/89--blogger above says 11/21/90 but I'm not changing my spreadsheet

Branden Keilen 9/15/89

I don't have sources though. I came up with these through a combination of blog archives and spokeo, etc.

[LadyPriss]

Well I'm happy for her. She looks happy and healthy. Obviously Florida agrees with her.

The fact that she is wearing pants after marriage was, most likely, predicted. Alyssa seems to be the stylish one, and now she is getting to play with other fashion choices. Chances are, either she asked her man for permission to wear jeans, or he said 'honey, if you want to wear jeans/shorts, that's fine with me'. If he is like the majority of young guys, he probably likes her in jeans...if ya know what I mean.

It's not like he is wearing a skirt or something.

I have a feeling we'll be seeing pics of the little one with Mickey Mouse and Goofy, time spent at the beach (not in wholesome wear, but maybe a little more dressed than say, Gisele Bundchen), and other fun things she probably didn't get to experience in her own childhood.

If Dakota Paine can wear a sleeveless dress to her wedding to Fundie Royalty, and follow that up with shorts and a normal bathingsuit top on a cruise, who knows what Alyssa will consider.

[Dandruff]

Did Kelly ever enforce a strict dress code like Michelle does? I also say good for Alyssa. She looks lovely in that picture. I think Kelly is more in tune with modern day dress which she realizes can be tasteful, pretty and modest at the same time without covering the body in a full burka or a long prairie dress.

In one of the earlier Duggar shows I remember the Bates girls wearing loud, matching frumpers that had me wondering if they were color-blind. I'm pretty sure Kelly said that it was their choice to dress that way, to honor the Lord or some such. I realize this doesn't answer the question of enforcement, if it was said to be their choice, but they definitely weren't dressing the same way as they are now.

[LittleOleMe]

FJ ate my reply to this comment. Here's what I have:

Chad Paine (and Tabitha--twins but I'm not sure about this) 4/30/85 4/18/87 per allaboutthebates.blogspot.com/2014/06/updated-birthdays-list.html but idk where this blogger got this info

John Webster 11/21/89--blogger above says 11/21/90 but I'm not changing my spreadsheet

Branden Keilen 9/15/89

I don't have sources though. I came up with these through a combination of blog archives and spokeo, etc.

Accoridng the bateses website, John was born in 89. I am a little surprised they don't have their own website. Just that wedding site. Or am I missing it??

ETA: http://www.batesfamilyblog.com/p/birthdays.html