Alyssa Bates/Webster is wearing PANTS!!

[actuallyjessica]

where are the other photos of her in pants? can you post?

here you go :)

[tabitha2]

The Websters are Tea party politicians. Having a DIL who exclusively wears below the knee skirts might send the wrong message to the people they want to target-regular pant wearing conservative and moderate Christians- hence the Jean wearing.

In the patriarchy the husband makes the rules for the family...if he is fine with jeans and ordered her to wear them she would.

[jerkit]

I don’t understand this new FJ trend where everything we snark on or discuss has to be immediately followed by “They’re still hateful evil fundies!â€

[actuallyjessica]

I don’t understand this new FJ trend where everything we snark on or discuss has to be immediately followed by “They’re still hateful evil fundies!â€

because apparently if you don't say it as a disclaimer the fundie fairies will swoop in and drop you at the door of your nearest cult where you will become a headship or helpmeet, depending on your jender.

[browncoatslytherin]

I don’t understand this new FJ trend where everything we snark on or discuss has to be immediately followed by “They’re still hateful evil fundies!â€

me neither. i mean, sure, their beliefs are still horrible, and if they're still trying to force them onto people, then that's reprehensible. but the fact of the matter is, people that are so deeply indoctrinated like the fundies we talk about are NOT going to change overnight. nowhere even close. if they change at all, it will be small steps like this. small steps that slowly chip away at the smaller teachings that leave room to chip away at the larger, overaching ideas. it will take years of these small steps accumulating to do anything. and even if our fundies don't completely settle down, it will hopefully help create a better environment for their children to take even more steps away from fundamentalism and forge their own path.

[nelliebelle1197]

Baby steps...you never know what belief/practice might be questioned next.

:::fingers crossed:::

Let me repeat this again: the Websters are ATI. Some ATI wear pants. Alyssa is now a Webster who can wear pants. When they disavow Bill Gothard is A Sexual Predator, call me.

[doubleT]

She looks adorable.

She's made a lot of changes in the last few months, considering how strict she was raised. Maybe not enough to please some of y'all, but changes nonetheless.

[nelliebelle1197]

because apparently if you don't say it as a disclaimer the fundie fairies will swoop in and drop you at the door of your nearest cult where you will become a headship or helpmeet, depending on your jender.

If you take a look at old threads with the old gang that used to be on here, the Bates worship would have been nixed really rudely and very thoroughly, probably too much so. I can think of a couple of older, high post count members who left in a huff over the last couple years because people were being too nice. This was never meant to be a fan site for the Duggars or Bates. It was meant to make fun them and their ilk. If people like them, fine. But other people don't and the Bates lovers just have to deal with it. Just like I have to roll my eyes everytime someone says they just LOVVVVVE Erin and Chad.

[nelliebelle1197]

me neither. i mean, sure, their beliefs are still horrible, and if they're still trying to force them onto people, then that's reprehensible. but the fact of the matter is, people that are so deeply indoctrinated like the fundies we talk about are NOT going to change overnight. nowhere even close. if they change at all, it will be small steps like this. small steps that slowly chip away at the smaller teachings that leave room to chip away at the larger, overaching ideas. it will take years of these small steps accumulating to do anything. and even if our fundies don't completely settle down, it will hopefully help create a better environment for their children to take even more steps away from fundamentalism and forge their own path.

I think it is just that the more pragmatic among us don't look at the evidence with Bateses and see any baby steps. We see three Bates girls paired off with three hardcore ATI boys. Gil is still on the board. I think Jill and Jessa have a better chance of stepping back from Gothard than Alyssa or Erin. Michael is marrying a Gothard missionary, for heaven's sakes.

[browncoatslytherin]

I think it is just that the more pragmatic among us don't look at the evidence with Bateses and see any baby steps. We see three Bates girls paired off with three hardcore ATI boys. Gil is still on the board. I think Jill and Jessa have a better chance of stepping back from Gothard than Alyssa or Erin. Michael is marrying a Gothard missionary, for heaven's sakes.

i still maintain that one can be pragmatic and yet hopeful for change at the same time. my family was at the same level as the duggars for a time, even involved in ati. nowadays, my parents are divorced and remarried and they drink and even swear, my mum wears pants, and all sorts of things that would make their past selves clutch their figurative pearls. even i have come a long way from where i thought i would have been headed at the time. so, i maintain a certain level of hope, because despite them and their beliefs, they're human beings. and if my personal journey has taught me anything, it's that we are capable of great change, and that we never truly stop changing and growing as our lives progress. that is part of what makes life deliciously unpredictable.

sorry, i waxed a bit philosophical there. tl;dr, i don't think being hopeful totally cancels out being practical. and i'll understand if others choose not to hope at all, but i will.

[Queen Of Hearts]

I can't understand why people think these hardcore fundies have to completely change their beliefs to be decent people. What they need to do is realize that they are free to live their way and everyone else is, too.

Well said. Not all of us think the same way or have the same ultra-liberal beliefs. For instance, while I support gay marriage, I do not support abortion (except for extreme situations). That doesn't make me bad or evil, it just shows that I have my own opinions based on my beliefs, education, and life experiences.

Alyssa wearing pants and sleeveless shirts shows me that she is able to make choices on her own. Ultimately, to me that is what is important more so than whether or not I agree with all her views. To me, it is important that SHE be able to make her own choices for what she does and how she believes - not her husband, father, or the FJ crowd.

[formergothardite]

The thing is, I really doubt Alyssa would have made those choices to wear pants and sleeveless shirts, no matter how much she wanted to do so, if her husband didn't approve of it. Do you really think she would have stood up to her new husband, told him she was not going to be under his authority and was going to wear clothing he viewed as sinful and immodest? I think she married a man she knew would let her wear pants because she knew that if she didn't she would be stuck wearing skirts because the man still gets to make the choices, not the woman.

[Firiel]

Boy, I'm sure glad no one at FJ knew about me when I was 19 (20?).

I was just a couple years out of a conservative Christian home and still believed the "homosexuality is a sin" line. Plus, I was pro-life, in theory. I wasn't active in either of those political realms, but if you asked me, those were the beliefs I would have stated.

I guess... I mean, I know Gil and Kelly are members of a hateful cult that they joined on purpose. That's a shitty, shitty move that reflects the kind of people they are. But their kids didn't ask to join. It's one thing to hold Josh Duggar responsible for his choices despite being raised in a cult. I mean, he's married, in his (late?) 20s now and works for a fucking hate group. But Alyssa is barely an adult and has only been out of the house for a few months. She's not going to chop off her hair, get a bikini, and start voting Democrat because she's secretly been a progressive Christian all along. It's a process. We won't know if she will mature into more accepting beliefs for a while. But, dammit, can't we cut some of these brand spankin' new adults some slack, especially when we've never seen them espousing the hateful views of their parents?

I guess that means I'm a Bates leghumper now.

[HereticHick]

So this site is only to "make fun of" the fundies, not have actual adult discussions about them? Got it.

Schoolyard jeering, yes. Critical thinking, no.

How oddly appropriate for our topic.

Those of you who are parents--do you refuse to acknowledge/approve of the developmental "baby steps" of your offspring?

Deep down inside, I fear that some of you WANT these fundy families to stay hardcore crazy and hateful.

[nelliebelle1197]

i still maintain that one can be pragmatic and yet hopeful for change at the same time. my family was at the same level as the duggars for a time, even involved in ati. nowadays, my parents are divorced and remarried and they drink and even swear, my mum wears pants, and all sorts of things that would make their past selves clutch their figurative pearls. even i have come a long way from where i thought i would have been headed at the time. so, i maintain a certain level of hope, because despite them and their beliefs, they're human beings. and if my personal journey has taught me anything, it's that we are capable of great change, and that we never truly stop changing and growing as our lives progress. that is part of what makes life deliciously unpredictable.

sorry, i waxed a bit philosophical there. tl;dr, i don't think being hopeful totally cancels out being practical. and i'll understand if others choose not to hope at all, but i will.

Those are fair points, especially since you are coming from the inside perspective

[nelliebelle1197]

So this site is only to "make fun of" the fundies, not have actual adult discussions about them? Got it.

Schoolyard jeering, yes. Critical thinking, no.

How oddly appropriate for our topic.

Those of you who are parents--do you refuse to acknowledge/approve of the developmental "baby steps" of your offspring?

Deep down inside, I fear that some of you WANT these fundy families to stay hardcore crazy and hateful.

No, of course not to ALL of that. But how is "Oh, go Alyssa!" "I love Erin!" critical thinking? How is "Oh, I know they no longer Gothardites for no apparent reason!" critical thinking?

I am mostly frustrated because a number of people present arguments that are actually evidence-based - Gil is on the IBLP board, his kids are all married to ATI people, Alyssa is married to the son of an extreme right-winger involved in ATI who family has a different dress code, Michael is marrying an Gothard-trained missionary - and those people are accused of just hating all the shiny happy people rather than presenting counter points. That is NOT a way to have a discussion based in critical thought.

[singsingsing]

I agree with the people saying any step like this is a step in the right direction, but I also totally agree with those saying it's not necessarily an indication that she's leaving fundamentalism or making any serious changes in her beliefs or lifestyle, especially given all the evidence to the contrary. It's nice that she's wearing pants and sleeveless shirts and it MAY turn out to be a sign of something more, but I'm not celebrating just yet. Of course I hope this means good things for Alyssa, but you have to take a realistic view of the matter at the same time.

[Four is Enough]

This is me doing a dance celebrating Alyssa's pants, aka the pants dance:

:dance: :dance: :pray: :dance: :dance: :cracking-up: :dance: :dance: :clap: :dance: :dance:

Totally modest and modern, relaxed, and beautiful all in one! Well done!

[Firiel]

No, of course not to ALL of that. But how is "Oh, go Alyssa!" "I love Erin!" critical thinking? How is "Oh, I know they no longer Gothardites for no apparent reason!" critical thinking?

I am mostly frustrated because a number of people present arguments that are actually evidence-based - Gil is on the IBLP board, his kids are all married to ATI people, Alyssa is married to the son of an extreme right-winger involved in ATI who family has a different dress code, Michael is marrying an Gothard-trained missionary - and those people are accused of just hating all the shiny happy people rather than presenting counter points. That is NOT a way to have a discussion based in critical thought.

I mean, it's true that the kids are married to ATI royalty. That's definitely a strike against their chances of escape, especially Alyssa because of the political connection. I think it says more about Kelly and Gil than the kids, though. And remember, Chad, John, and Brandon were also raised in a cult. It's not unheard of for newly married couples to find their way out of a religious movement together. As far as I know, Chad hasn't taken any steps to become more involved in ATI (what does Chad do, actually?). Time will tell if John has political aspirations of his own, but I sure hope he doesn't because that could ensnare him in the same place that Josh is-- where questioning your religious/political beliefs could lead to an inability to support your family. I worry about Michael being with Brandon because she seems quite submissive and naive and his "good liar" criticism really rubs me the wrong way. He's also older, right? So has had more chance to distance himself and hasn't.

[NachosFlandersStyle]

I guess the reason I am uncomfortable with the "fundie lite" discussions is that her children's experiences will be shaped by her views, not by her dress code. One of my closest friends, and one of the reasons I started reading about fundies in the first place, comes from a family that you guys would call "fundie lite." He was homeschooled and attended a very strict church, but his parents are ordinary-looking people with an fairly normal number of children. I believe they watch movies and have the occasional glass of wine. I have met them and if I didn't already know about my friend's upbringing I wouldn't have thought there was anything unusual about them.

But when he came out of the closet, the response was definitely NOT "lite." This year he asked if he could spend Christmas with me because he had nowhere else to go. I have had many late-night conversations with him about the serious issues he is still dealing with because of a childhood lived in isolation with and bombarded with the threat of hellfire.

I am glad that Alyssa is making some breaks with her parents lifestyle, and I am glad she gets to wear what she likes. But until she starts talking about substantive changes to her ideology I am not going to be hopeful that her children will have a better life.

[Firiel]

I guess the reason I am uncomfortable with the "fundie lite" discussions is that her children's experiences will be shaped by her views, not by her dress code. One of my closest friends, and one of the reasons I started reading about fundies in the first place, comes from a family that you guys would call "fundie lite." He was homeschooled and attended a very strict church, but his parents are ordinary-looking people with an fairly normal number of children. I believe they watch movies and have the occasional glass of wine. I have met them and if I didn't already know about my friend's upbringing I wouldn't have thought there was anything unusual about them.

But when he came out of the closet, the response was definitely NOT "lite." This year he asked if he could spend Christmas with me because he had nowhere else to go. I have had many late-night conversations with him about the serious issues he is still dealing with because of a childhood lived in isolation with and bombarded with the threat of hellfire.

I am glad that Alyssa is making some breaks with her parents lifestyle, and I am glad she gets to wear what she likes. But until she starts talking about substantive changes to her ideology I am not going to be hopeful that her children will have a better life.

I think different people have different views of the phrases fundie, fundie-lite, and conservative Christian.

Actually, that would make a good conversation. It may help us at least understand where everyone else is coming from when using these words.

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

Why is it that EVERY TIME we talk about the children of fundie parents, people have this need to talk about their parents' beliefs and practices as if the child and the parents are one in the same? Are YOU exactly like your parents? Do you make every single decision your parents made? Do you hold evey single belief your parents do? If you answered no to any of those, why must you feel the need to behave like you cannot separate the beliefs of ones parents from oneself?!

[browncoatslytherin]

Why is it that EVERY TIME we talk about the children of fundie parents, people have this need to talk about their parents' beliefs and practices as if the child and the parents are one in the same? Are YOU exactly like your parents? Do you make every single decision your parents made? Do you hold evey single belief your parents do? If you answered no to any of those, why must you feel the need to behave like you cannot separate the beliefs of ones parents from oneself?!

i think because commonly, at least in the fundie community, the parents beliefs are expected to be parroted by the children. this isn't just expected from fj'ers, though, it's from their community as well. i experienced the same growing up, if my parents believed something, i was expected to say i believed the same. you aren't expected to make your own decisions, you're supposed to just listen to your parents and tow the party line (speaking from my own experience, using the general "you" to refer to myself). it makes breaking away that much harder. not impossible, just harder. when critical thinking is discouraged, it takes time to develop those skills, if they get developed at all. parroting is easier.

now, once children have grown up some and have been outside of their parents direct influence as a single kid, then i personally will tend to separate them out. like josh. however, someone newlywed and just getting out there, i'll still criticize them here and there but i'll do it with a grain of salt and hope that any negative push back they get will help them see that not is all what they think it is.

[LittleOleMe]

There is a huge difference between holding certain beliefs and actively trying to force those beliefs on other people.

[Firiel]

i think because commonly, at least in the fundie community, the parents beliefs are expected to be parroted by the children. this isn't just expected from fj'ers, though, it's from their community as well. i experienced the same growing up, if my parents believed something, i was expected to say i believed the same. you aren't expected to make your own decisions, you're supposed to just listen to your parents and tow the party line (speaking from my own experience, using the general "you" to refer to myself). it makes breaking away that much harder. not impossible, just harder. when critical thinking is discouraged, it takes time to develop those skills, if they get developed at all. parroting is easier.

now, once children have grown up some and have been outside of their parents direct influence as a single kid, then i personally will tend to separate them out. like josh. however, someone newlywed and just getting out there, i'll still criticize them here and there but i'll do it with a grain of salt and hope that any negative push back they get will help them see that not is all what they think it is.

I think it's fine to criticize the kids on things they actually do.

But I see (some) of this going on, although this is an exaggerated example:

"I think Chad's a really sweet guy. I like that he's not afraid to have a pink bedroom!"

"I can't believe what a leghumper you are! His dad is on the ATI board! A pink bedroom is nothing compared to the harmful ATI beliefs!"

Well, yeah, that's true. But Chad isn't his dad, so I can't criticize him for his dad's poor, bigoted choice to get that deeply involved in a cult.