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Maxwells: "Have raised children who have not rebelled"


copper

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That is bull that the Amish are lenient and allow their kids to rebel. They don't let those kids attend a real high school during the Rumpspringa, or allow them to do service projects with English kids or go to a science museum. What they allow them to do is go to parties where there is tons of alcohol, possibly drugs, lots of hookups, and present THAT to their teenagers as the sum total of life in the outside world. So the kids think the choice is between being a hedonist or a meaningful family life among the Amish. Together with their 8th grade educations, that does not constitute any real choice or lenient parenting.

I apologize for the derail, but I just can't take it when people hold up the Amish as some sort of example of healthy parenting. It's a sham meant to scare their teenager into choosing the Amish way of life.

I wasn't holding them up as a paragon of parenting - I was comparing them to the Maxwells, who gave their children not only a subpar education but no chance to experience the world. I never said the Amish model was great by a long shot.

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Robots can't rebel. They do only what they are programmed to do. They have no reasoning ability or logic.

I'd rather have a rebellious kid than a Maxwell kid.

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Good parents don't worry that their children will rebel. They accept that their children will grow and make mistakes, especially during their teens, but that they will settle down and become semi-productive citizens at some point and be reasonable emotionally healthy. Only insecure faithless people are scared of their teenagers and scared of what their children will become. Emotionally mature healthy parents are confident that they raised emotionally maturing, healthy children.

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Good parents don't worry that their children will rebel. They accept that their children will grow and make mistakes, especially during their teens, but that they will settle down and become semi-productive citizens at some point and be reasonable emotionally healthy. Only insecure faithless people are scared of their teenagers and scared of what their children will become. Emotionally mature healthy parents are confident that they raised emotionally maturing, healthy children.

I'm a little scared of what my kids may become :| Because I grew up fundie and have no freakin clue what a "normal" adolescense is. Not to knock you, Ellimenopy, because I think what you said is true, but I'm just an example of the inter-generational long term effects of fundamentalism. It makes me wonder about the parents' backgrounds, and what prompted them to take on this kind of lifestyle.

I'm relying on DH to be a guiding force here, and I'm fortunate to have that. If the Maxwell kids ever leave their family, enter the Real World and start their own families, they will be clueless about normal childhood and adolescent development. It would be a couple of generations before this damage could be mitigated. Extremism causes so much present and future damage.

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I answered my own question, yes it is. I wonder is Elissa has anything to do with the Spanish language version?

Also, Steve since you read here let my offer a suggestion...if you plan to offer products with Spanish translations you should actually translate the description for the product and any of the product details. You are a moron.

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That is bull that the Amish are lenient and allow their kids to rebel. They don't let those kids attend a real high school during the Rumpspringa, or allow them to do service projects with English kids or go to a science museum. What they allow them to do is go to parties where there is tons of alcohol, possibly drugs, lots of hookups, and present THAT to their teenagers as the sum total of life in the outside world. So the kids think the choice is between being a hedonist or a meaningful family life among the Amish. Together with their 8th grade educations, that does not constitute any real choice or lenient parenting.

I apologize for the derail, but I just can't take it when people hold up the Amish as some sort of example of healthy parenting. It's a sham meant to scare their teenager into choosing the Amish way of life.

I agree with everything you said. Growing up in Amish country I don't romanticize it. However at the same time, I still think the Amish are less sheltered than the maxwell kids. Which is terrible, because I hate the Amish way of life. And I agree that the rumspringa presents a false dichotomy.

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Contrasting fundies like the Maxwells with the Amish strikes close to home for me since I was raised Amish Mennonite with a big side of IBLP/Gothard dogma.

One extreme of rumpspringer (literally: running around) has been represented in pop culture, although in its cultural context, rumspringer is a verb, a reference to the social activities of young people between the years of 16 and marriage. Activities can range from one extreme of partying, drugs, etc. to the other extreme of hymn sings and snacks on Sunday evenings. Hearing outsiders talk about rumspringer was the first time I heard the term used as a noun--as a life stage.

One of the biggest misunderstandings about rumspringer is that it is somehow an intentional rite of passage. However, that is simply the way sociologists and reality TV producers have tried to make sense of the culture. In practice, the parents/elders of "wild" young Amish people are not encouraging the practice, but are simply looking the other way (to a greater or lesser degree--obviously there are always exceptions).

Back in the 1940s, my maternal grandparents left a setting where young people were "wild" in order to raise their family in a community that was actually considered more liberal (New Order--they had electricity, tractors, etc.), but there was also a more spiritual emphasis and young people were expected to walk the straight and narrow.

Fast forward to the 1980s and '90s when my parents had fallen under Bill Gothard's spell and had begun homeschooling. In the process, the traditions that were held somewhat unreflectively--and therefore somewhat more loosely--were hammered hard. So, for example, even though the idea of a stay-at-home-daughter was the cultural default, it was no big deal when friends of mine went to nursing school. But my father refused to discuss my deep desire for college--never saying no, but just ignoring it whenever I started talking about it. IBLP gave my Dad the "scriptural" grounds to make demands without the need to defend or explain them. Ultimately, this is what made me--earnest and conformist--lose faith in it all.

I'm doing a poor job describing the dynamics, but, ultimately, I agree with the observation that the Maxwells are far more restrictive with their children than the vast majority of those in the Amish (and conservative Mennonite) culture that I grew up in. Of course, there are so many other cultural differences that it's nearly impossible to make a one-to-one comparison, but the biggest difference to me is the intentionality of it all. Many Amish communities are merely repressive out of habit, but the Maxwells are repressive by careful intention.

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I have to apologize for the bitchiness in my response about the Amish. That was just poor form on my part, no excuses. :embarrassed:

I do stand by the statements that the Amish merely appear lenient because they allow the presentation of a false dichotomy and an inadequate education to keep their kids in line.

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People in North Korea don't rebel, either. If they do, both they and their family members are thrown into a concentration camp. This may be an extreme comparison that's not quite relative to the Maxwells' situation, but it makes a point.

Let's be honest, Steve, Your kids don't REALLY have any skills. If they did, they'd have the choice of leaving you behind in the dust. You don't give them any choices or options, aside from what flavor of Dairy Queen blizzard to get, and that's a huge maybe. They can't rebel if rebelling is not an option, so stop patting yourself on the back like you've achieved anything other than making your kids into fearful and compliant slaves.

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I have to apologize for the bitchiness in my response about the Amish. That was just poor form on my part, no excuses. :embarrassed:

I do stand by the statements that the Amish merely appear lenient because they allow the presentation of a false dichotomy and an inadequate education to keep their kids in line.

Oh, I hope you're not apologizing to me, AreteJo, because I agree with your assessment of the very serious problems in Amish communities and the ways these problems get glossed over so much of the time!

I should probably also clarify that the church I was raised in was more progressive than New Order Amish (we were Beachy Amish Mennonite) which means we had electricity and cars, but kept the traditional dress and had no radio or TV. There's also a stronger evangelical fundamentalist influence there (aside from IBLP/Gothard) so the expectations for young people's spiritual commitments were generally higher too. High school was acceptable--but not at a public school. I did my high school at our church school where we used an older edition of ACE--a profoundly flawed young-earth creationist Baptist curriculum. But even a crappy diploma was better than no diploma when I finally got a job and later started college. Few Old Order Amish young people even have that much going for them when they get restless.

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Contrasting fundies like the Maxwells with the Amish strikes close to home for me since I was raised Amish Mennonite with a big side of IBLP/Gothard dogma.

One extreme of rumpspringer (literally: running around) has been represented in pop culture, although in its cultural context, rumspringer is a verb, a reference to the social activities of young people between the years of 16 and marriage. Activities can range from one extreme of partying, drugs, etc. to the other extreme of hymn sings and snacks on Sunday evenings. Hearing outsiders talk about rumspringer was the first time I heard the term used as a noun--as a life stage.

One of the biggest misunderstandings about rumspringer is that it is somehow an intentional rite of passage. However, that is simply the way sociologists and reality TV producers have tried to make sense of the culture. In practice, the parents/elders of "wild" young Amish people are not encouraging the practice, but are simply looking the other way (to a greater or lesser degree--obviously there are always exceptions).

Back in the 1940s, my maternal grandparents left a setting where young people were "wild" in order to raise their family in a community that was actually considered more liberal (New Order--they had electricity, tractors, etc.), but there was also a more spiritual emphasis and young people were expected to walk the straight and narrow.

Fast forward to the 1980s and '90s when my parents had fallen under Bill Gothard's spell and had begun homeschooling. In the process, the traditions that were held somewhat unreflectively--and therefore somewhat more loosely--were hammered hard. So, for example, even though the idea of a stay-at-home-daughter was the cultural default, it was no big deal when friends of mine went to nursing school. But my father refused to discuss my deep desire for college--never saying no, but just ignoring it whenever I started talking about it. IBLP gave my Dad the "scriptural" grounds to make demands without the need to defend or explain them. Ultimately, this is what made me--earnest and conformist--lose faith in it all.

I'm doing a poor job describing the dynamics, but, ultimately, I agree with the observation that the Maxwells are far more restrictive with their children than the vast majority of those in the Amish (and conservative Mennonite) culture that I grew up in. Of course, there are so many other cultural differences that it's nearly impossible to make a one-to-one comparison, but the biggest difference to me is the intentionality of it all. Many Amish communities are merely repressive out of habit, but the Maxwells are repressive by careful intention.

I am very intrigued. It would be awesome if you would be willing to do an Ask Me Anything. I'd love to know more about how IBLP fit into your parents' Mennonite/Amish beliefs.

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This is the thing that bothers me most about the Maxwells, the Duggars, the Pearls, the Bates and other fundie families. Their kids are so tightly controlled. They have no opportunity to even consider different opinions, different points of view. They can't leave the house without a chaperone. If these kids have been "raised right" why the control?

I was a rebel...my parents were very old-fashioned, very European in their parenting. My kids were hellions...none of the three finished high school...they hated school. One went down a very bad path that brought her a prison sentence. The other two got their acts together in their early 20's. One went in the Army, the other went off to Job Corps. Now, all three are adults and have returned to a responsible way of life. Yes, it broke me in a big way when my daughter went to prison, I'm jealous of folks who got to see their kids graduate from high school. BUT...all three of them, now, as adults, really DID learn the things I was trying to teach them. They are fully functioning adults who don't need mama to hold their hands.

Do any of these fundie kids have the ability to be fully functional adults?

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I answered my own question, yes it is. I wonder is Elissa has anything to do with the Spanish language version?

Also, Steve since you read here let my offer a suggestion...if you plan to offer products with Spanish translations you should actually translate the description for the product and any of the product details. You are a moron.

I doubt it, since Elissa the poster from Ecuador is apparently still in Ecuador, per SPHASH's observation in the Anna Maxwell Birthday thread (I apologize, I don't know if direct linking to posts is possible here, so I'm c/p):

Re: Happy Birthday Anna Maxwell!

PostAuthor: SPHASH » Sat Nov 01, 2014 8:24 am

Interesting comment left:

Elissa says:

October 31, 2014 at 10:07 pm

¡Feliz Cumpleaños, Anna!

Espero que hayas tenido un maravilloso cumpleaños en compañía de toda tu familia.

Bendiciones desde Ecuador

Elissa

Happy Birthday, Anna!

Hope you had a wonderful birthday with your whole family.

Blessings from Ecuador.

Elissa

>>>>>

Thank you I had a great day.

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This is the thing that bothers me most about the Maxwells, the Duggars, the Pearls, the Bates and other fundie families. Their kids are so tightly controlled. They have no opportunity to even consider different opinions, different points of view. They can't leave the house without a chaperone. If these kids have been "raised right" why the control?

I was a rebel...my parents were very old-fashioned, very European in their parenting. My kids were hellions...none of the three finished high school...they hated school. One went down a very bad path that brought her a prison sentence. The other two got their acts together in their early 20's. One went in the Army, the other went off to Job Corps. Now, all three are adults and have returned to a responsible way of life. Yes, it broke me in a big way when my daughter went to prison, I'm jealous of folks who got to see their kids graduate from high school. BUT...all three of them, now, as adults, really DID learn the things I was trying to teach them. They are fully functioning adults who don't need mama to hold their hands.

Do any of these fundie kids have the ability to be fully functional adults?

And the irony of it is that all this control is in the context of a very libertarian view of government--freedom lovin' patriots and whatnot. Of course, it's not so ironic if "freedom" is understood as a right reserved for white hetero males.

I'm incredibly grateful that my parents weren't pulled together enough to maintain the level of control that these fundie families have (or seem to have), but I can say that the hardest part of being a fully functional adult for me is not the educational or employment piece (I've managed to get a PhD and a tenure-track professor job), but the emotional and social part of it. (That's almost a quote from a post at Recovering Grace, btw.) Sure, I've worked very hard to learn social norms, but I can't quite shake the fear that my background is showing or that I'm missing some vital but unstated expectation. I also find it difficult to listen to my gut because that requires 1) unlearning the central lesson of the first two decades of my life that I cannot trust myself and 2) having a sense of what exactly "normal" is.

Props to you, Feministxian, for having faith in your children to see them through the challenges they have faced in life. Lately I've been binge watching Gilmore Girls on Netflix and reflecting on the futility of trying to force one's children into a particular mold. I know it's comedy, but really. How can anyone think that demanding and manipulating (young) adult children is somehow a plausible approach to a relationship?

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Ask away, although I will warn you that the answers might be messy enough to be tiresome, but not juicy enough to be entertaining. :)

Sorry. I should have clarified that Ask Me Anything is a FJ forum here: viewforum.php?f=16 :embarrassed:

I just thought that you come from a very interesting background. An AMA topic would be cool.

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Ask away, although I will warn you that the answers might be messy enough to be tiresome, but not juicy enough to be entertaining. :)

I'd love to know more about this too. One of my fundie fascinations is the Bontragers, a family where both parents come from Mennonite backgrounds who are now fundie evangelicals, involved in both Vision Forum and IBLP/ATI. They travel part time singing in churches and run a farm that seems to be mainly subsistence, maybe slightly commercial, and appeared in an early 19K&C episode. The grandparents are head covering Mennonites and the parents siblings and their children range from that through fundie evangelical through mainstream conservative Christian. I've always wondered how they ended up IFB and what their extended family (who they seem to be very close to) feel about it.

I would love to hear your story and insight

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I answered my own question, yes it is. I wonder is Elissa has anything to do with the Spanish language version?

Also, Steve since you read here let my offer a suggestion...if you plan to offer products with Spanish translations you should actually translate the description for the product and any of the product details. You are a moron.

I suspect the Spanish edition is for "missionaries" to hand out to any heathen Catholics they encounter. So the purchaser would understand the English description.

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I have to apologize for the bitchiness in my response about the Amish. That was just poor form on my part, no excuses. :embarrassed:

I do stand by the statements that the Amish merely appear lenient because they allow the presentation of a false dichotomy and an inadequate education to keep their kids in line.

I don't think it was bitchy. Direct for sure...but I hate the general romantic ideas Americans often have about the Amish.

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I doubt it, since Elissa the poster from Ecuador is apparently still in Ecuador, per SPHASH's observation in the Anna Maxwell Birthday thread (I apologize, I don't know if direct linking to posts is possible here, so I'm c/p):

Sorry I didn't meant to imply that the previous Elissa that we briefly thought was the wedded Elissa were the same anymore. I just wondered if she speak Spanish herself because it is weird to suddenly have a Spanish version.

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I have to apologize for the bitchiness in my response about the Amish. That was just poor form on my part, no excuses. :embarrassed:

I do stand by the statements that the Amish merely appear lenient because they allow the presentation of a false dichotomy and an inadequate education to keep their kids in line.

No worries!

Have you read "Why I Left the Amish" by Saloma Furlong? I read this book a few years ago, and the author has very similar insights as yours.

http://www.amazon.com/Left-Amish-Saloma ... 0870139940

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Oh, I hope you're not apologizing to me, AreteJo, because I agree with your assessment of the very serious problems in Amish communities and the ways these problems get glossed over so much of the time!

I should probably also clarify that the church I was raised in was more progressive than New Order Amish (we were Beachy Amish Mennonite) which means we had electricity and cars, but kept the traditional dress and had no radio or TV. There's also a stronger evangelical fundamentalist influence there (aside from IBLP/Gothard) so the expectations for young people's spiritual commitments were generally higher too. High school was acceptable--but not at a public school. I did my high school at our church school where we used an older edition of ACE--a profoundly flawed young-earth creationist Baptist curriculum. But even a crappy diploma was better than no diploma when I finally got a job and later started college. Few Old Order Amish young people even have that much going for them when they get restless.

I'd be interested in an AMA with you as well Rhetorica (if you don't mind!) I'm very interested in picking your brain about growing up conservative Anabaptist.

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Contrasting fundies like the Maxwells with the Amish strikes close to home for me since I was raised Amish Mennonite with a big side of IBLP/Gothard dogma.

One extreme of rumpspringer (literally: running around) has been represented in pop culture, although in its cultural context, rumspringer is a verb, a reference to the social activities of young people between the years of 16 and marriage. Activities can range from one extreme of partying, drugs, etc. to the other extreme of hymn sings and snacks on Sunday evenings. Hearing outsiders talk about rumspringer was the first time I heard the term used as a noun--as a life stage.

One of the biggest misunderstandings about rumspringer is that it is somehow an intentional rite of passage. However, that is simply the way sociologists and reality TV producers have tried to make sense of the culture. In practice, the parents/elders of "wild" young Amish people are not encouraging the practice, but are simply looking the other way (to a greater or lesser degree--obviously there are always exceptions).

Back in the 1940s, my maternal grandparents left a setting where young people were "wild" in order to raise their family in a community that was actually considered more liberal (New Order--they had electricity, tractors, etc.), but there was also a more spiritual emphasis and young people were expected to walk the straight and narrow.

Fast forward to the 1980s and '90s when my parents had fallen under Bill Gothard's spell and had begun homeschooling. In the process, the traditions that were held somewhat unreflectively--and therefore somewhat more loosely--were hammered hard. So, for example, even though the idea of a stay-at-home-daughter was the cultural default, it was no big deal when friends of mine went to nursing school. But my father refused to discuss my deep desire for college--never saying no, but just ignoring it whenever I started talking about it. IBLP gave my Dad the "scriptural" grounds to make demands without the need to defend or explain them. Ultimately, this is what made me--earnest and conformist--lose faith in it all.

I'm doing a poor job describing the dynamics, but, ultimately, I agree with the observation that the Maxwells are far more restrictive with their children than the vast majority of those in the Amish (and conservative Mennonite) culture that I grew up in. Of course, there are so many other cultural differences that it's nearly impossible to make a one-to-one comparison, but the biggest difference to me is the intentionality of it all. Many Amish communities are merely repressive out of habit, but the Maxwells are repressive by careful intention.

Rhetorica....Do the Amish/Mennonites believe that children are born evil (ala the Pearls and Stevo), or that children should not be exposed to the outside world because that world is evil or at odds with Amish faith? The Maxwells seem to accept both: their children are born evil and that the outer world is evil.

I may not be explaining myself very well.

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