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Erin Bates Paine's piano playing


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1 hour ago, Ofglen said:

The difference, for me, is remembering that musicians, their music, and i guess art in general are not products in the same way that other things we consume are. It's not tasteful to treat your critique of a person and their output of art in the same, unfeeling way that you critique non-artistic products. Of course criticism is allowed and valid, but I think there's a time, a place, and a way for it. I also think it's valid to critique criticisms when they're not in good taste. Remember that most musicians sell their music not because they want to, but because they have to to make a living. Ultimately, they're in it for the spirit of the music, not for the money (lol, we don't get rich).

And, of course, you can feel free to disagree with me. This is just my 2 cents. I don't mean to start a war and I don't want this to be read like I'm yelling at or scolding anyone through the internet... Just sharing my opinion, as someone that does this everyday.

 I respectfully disagree.  Actually, I'm not here to pick fights either, but what utter bull-shit!

A product is a product, whether it is "art" or not.  Most professional musicians I know (including my nephew) are not special snowflakes whose "art" is beyond criticism.  A good artist listens and inwardly digests all criticism, and then takes what is meaningful to them to develop their art.  If an "artist" accepts money for their product then their product should be worth paying for.  A whole lot of artists work in other areas to support their "art."  They are definitely lucky to be able to sell their product.  Art is a luxury product, after all.

Musicians are not special snowflakes nor exempt from these guidelines.

Erin has, IMO, been badly taught.  She has been encouraged in a flashy and redundant style that is apparently admired in Fundie circles but not beyond.  The style obscures her natural talent.  She has bad, in fact dangerous and harmful, technique, which I hope she doesn't pass on to others through teaching.  IMO, she is not qualified to teach unless or until she corrects that technique.

That is constructive criticism whether you think it is "tasteful" or not.

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My wrists hurt when I watch Erin play! That's one of the things I notice the most. I took piano from elementary school to high school and my teachers always stressed proper form. That started with posture and hand/wrist position. I wonder if that is something she teaches her students. 

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Erin's piano playing is not my personal style.  I find it too embellished for the sake of embellishment, too rigid and structured, and lacking in emotion and innovation.  But that's just me.  I tend to prefer ragtime/jazz/blues, which is basically the antithesis of Erin's style.

It's like decor, I feel.  Some people prefer the function and simplicity of mid century design, some people prefer the intricacy and craftsmanship of the Craftsman era.  And everything in between.  It's all preference.

I think she is a very technically skilled player, just not my style.

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"Too many notes!"

She's a banger, too. I'm a banger (13yr piano lessons, played for several church groups back when I was a Christian), too, and it's a hard habit to break. I bang on the keyboard of a computer, too - drives my husband nuts. I need the tactile response from the keys. Yes, I can play quietly, but my general tendency is to push vigorously.

The person who said it might mostly be the piano in the church where Jill and Jessa were both married - Erin may be used to playing in smaller venues and worried about the sound carrying (lol), or it's miked and she's used to not being miked. Ooh, or it may be one of the soft touch pianos and she's used to a keyboard that requires more pressure.  I know in college we all had our favorite practice pianos because they each had different qualities (hard, soft, bright, muted). 

 

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I know nothing about classical music, but I always assumed she slammed the keys at the weddings because it was just one little piano and that huge ass mega church to fill with music. 

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20 hours ago, LawsonBatesEgo said:

I know nothing about classical music, but I always assumed she slammed the keys at the weddings because it was just one little piano and that huge ass mega church to fill with music. 

I always thought the problem at the weddings was that she was banging to fill the whole room with the audience, but the TV microphones were set up next to the piano and then not properly balanced by the production company before being broadcast. Now this may be wishful thinking, but that's how it's always read to me.

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I'm a guitar player...and I've played in a variety of places, acoustic, with and without amps. With an amp, it's different than without. Without, I tend to strum much harder to be able to project sound further. With an amp, I can actually play quite quietly and the amp picks it all up. Could be the same for Erin and the pianos. 

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To me it's not just the banging of the keys or the volume output that seems obnoxious. It's all the extra flowery improvising that turns me off. There's technique, and then there's overkill. See the recent Bringing Up Bates episode showing Erin recording an album with Andy Leftwich, for example. Reminds me of when people slaughter The National Anthem by adding in way too many trills and deviations from the original melody. I guess I just have to quote Seinfeld here and say "It's just so much fluff."

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On 3/26/2016 at 5:53 PM, Ofglen said:

The difference, for me, is remembering that musicians, their music, and i guess art in general are not products in the same way that other things we consume are. It's not tasteful to treat your critique of a person and their output of art in the same, unfeeling way that you critique non-artistic products. Of course criticism is allowed and valid, but I think there's a time, a place, and a way for it. I also think it's valid to critique criticisms when they're not in good taste. Remember that most musicians sell their music not because they want to, but because they have to to make a living. Ultimately, they're in it for the spirit of the music, not for the money (lol, we don't get rich).

And, of course, you can feel free to disagree with me. This is just my 2 cents. I don't mean to start a war and I don't want this to be read like I'm yelling at or scolding anyone through the internet... Just sharing my opinion, as someone that does this everyday.

I didn't think you were trying to start a war, and it's an interesting perspective from a professional musician.

However, while I agree that people should always remember that the person they're critiquing is a person, I think once someone decides to go professional with their art, (i.e., sell CDs) they make themselves open to criticism, and I think should be ready for it as a professional or aspiring professional. I write, and even my non-fiction can be very personal to me, but my editors and beta readers tear up my stuff all the time. And because I get paid to write, and hope one day to sell a book to a publisher, I've opened myself up to it. If I kept everything I wrote in private notebooks in my room that would be a different story. 

Also, not to be too philosophical, but I don't know if there's a hard line to determine what is an artistic and non-artistic product. I know of people who feel that the cars they build, the meals they cook, or the houses they build are their art. They put just as much of themselves into it as a writer or musician does. 

(That being said, I have no opinion on Erin's piano playing one way or the other. I honestly know nothing about proper piano form and would only be able to tell if she were obviously hitting the wrong notes at the wrong time.)

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3 hours ago, nausicaa said:

I didn't think you were trying to start a war, and it's an interesting perspective from a professional musician.

However, while I agree that people should always remember that the person they're critiquing is a person, I think once someone decides to go professional with their art, (i.e., sell CDs) they make themselves open to criticism, and I think should be ready for it as a professional or aspiring professional. I write, and even my non-fiction can be very personal to me, but my editors and beta readers tear up my stuff all the time. And because I get paid to write, and hope one day to sell a book to a publisher, I've opened myself up to it. If I kept everything I wrote in private notebooks in my room that would be a different story. 

Also, not to be too philosophical, but I don't know if there's a hard line to determine what is an artistic and non-artistic product. I know of people who feel that the cars they build, the meals they cook, or the houses they build are their art. They put just as much of themselves into it as a writer or musician does. 

(That being said, I have no opinion on Erin's piano playing one way or the other. I honestly know nothing about proper piano form and would only be able to tell if she were obviously hitting the wrong notes at the wrong time.)

Sorry- I haven't read the last couple pages on this thread, so I'm not updated on what's been going on. I only saw this since you quoted me- I read a few messages after the last one I posted, but haven't for the last couple days. Message below directed generally,

I am wondering if my perspective might be strong because I'm a classical musician. The classical music world, especially the very competitive strains, tend to border on abusive with their criticisms (not all- many), and that is very much a world I am a part of- it is fair game to be ripped to shreds for anything less than perfection. I just don't think that kind of culture is sustainable and it's something I'm investing in changing. Erin may not be a part of the most competitive or technically advanced classical cultures, but the environment she is a part of no doubt mimics the trends of the larger classical world. Don't repeat that culture here. 

It's not sustainable to live in a world where you make yourself open to all criticism all the time, just because you sell your music. As a musician, it is not useful to accept rude or mean comments. Choosing to filter crap out is not being a "speshul snowflake" either, it's smart and necessary. To be fair, if people are just repeating over and over again that they think erin bangs on the piano and it hurts their dog's ears, that's not useful or constructive- at a point it's just destructive to the musician. Every audience member is capable of rational thought just as the musician is and we shouldn't just spew garbage because "well artists should be open to criticism!" We should all control ourselves and think before we speak, as the performing artist thinks before they perform for you. 

Specifically to nausicaa: Also, i completely agree with you about the line between artistic and non-artistic. Thanks for that comment!

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On 3/26/2016 at 9:31 PM, Ofglen said:

I promise Erin's music is her heart and soul. I guess this post just kind of rubs me the wrong way because I'm sure Erin's already a perfectionist,

And Raquel's poetry is also her heart and soul and she claims she is a perfectionist, doesn't make it any less awful. 

I don't know enough about music to really criticize Erin's form. She isn't bad, IMO, but nothing that really stands out.  I wouldn't pay to listen to her, but if she was playing somewhere I happened to be I could probably sit through without cringing. 

 

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2 hours ago, Ofglen said:

It's not sustainable to live in a world where you make yourself open to all criticism all the time, just because you sell your music. As a musician, it is not useful to accept rude or mean comments. Choosing to filter crap out is not being a "speshul snowflake" either, it's smart and necessary. To be fair, if people are just repeating over and over again that they think erin bangs on the piano and it hurts their dog's ears, that's not useful or constructive- at a point it's just destructive to the musician.

This thread is only 1 1/2 pages long, and only a handful of people have expressed strong opinions either way. 

I don't quite understand what you mean by the bolded part? The thing is, whether fair or not in your opinion, the people who tend to make it in the Arts world are usually those that have learned to filter criticism, take from it what is helpful, and set aside the rest. It's that Mind over Matter thing: if you don't mind, they don't matter.

I am not personally reading anything here that jumps out to me as "destructive"? 

 

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I haven't seen anything mean or nasty said in this thread, and I tend toward sensitive to that stuff since I'm an artist too. 

There seems to be a large consensus that she bangs on the keys and over does the flourishes for people's taste. I have to agree about the banging. I didn't know who played the piano at Jill's wedding, but the one thing I remember is the harsh, angry sound of the piano. It startled me and I had to turn the tv down.

If no one ever criticizes her playing, how will she know how to improve? None of what's been said here is any worse than has been said to me by teachers in junior high school band. 

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11 hours ago, nausicaa said:

I didn't think you were trying to start a war, and it's an interesting perspective from a professional musician.

However, while I agree that people should always remember that the person they're critiquing is a person, I think once someone decides to go professional with their art, (i.e., sell CDs) they make themselves open to criticism, and I think should be ready for it as a professional or aspiring professional. I write, and even my non-fiction can be very personal to me, but my editors and beta readers tear up my stuff all the time. And because I get paid to write, and hope one day to sell a book to a publisher, I've opened myself up to it. If I kept everything I wrote in private notebooks in my room that would be a different story. 

Also, not to be too philosophical, but I don't know if there's a hard line to determine what is an artistic and non-artistic product. I know of people who feel that the cars they build, the meals they cook, or the houses they build are their art. They put just as much of themselves into it as a writer or musician does. 

(That being said, I have no opinion on Erin's piano playing one way or the other. I honestly know nothing about proper piano form and would only be able to tell if she were obviously hitting the wrong notes at the wrong time.)

I'll join in here and agree to an extent- once you're performing for other people you can expect to be criticized, possibly harshly, although you'd hope it would be constructive.

Amusingly, the college I work for has a conservatory and thus my guitar teacher is phenomenal- both tremendously skilled and an excellent teacher.  He spends a lot of time during lessons talking me up, encouraging me when I do well and glossing over the negative.  One of the people who works for me also plays, and is far better than I am- he's been in various bands performing live since he was a teenager.  I got him to go to my teacher, and the first thing my teacher did was tear apart both his playing and his technique, because when you're good enough to be out there you're good enough to begin to understand how to *actually* play.  If I'm lucky I might get there in another decade....

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That's a great point, @guitar_villain. Once you're good, you need to be able to take that criticism. I've played for a long time, but I'll admit I could probably go for a few lessons to brush up on techniques. 

I do think Ofglen did have a point about one thing. The classical world can get very nitpicky, but here's the thing...there's a difference in "You're picking your hand up too high!" and "You're butchering the forte and mezzoforte, please dial it back a notch." While I'd say both would apply to Erin, I'd ignore the first piece, because that's way too BEC and a matter of personal style. To me, only the second is really a big deal- and a problem she'll pass on to her students. That's kind of the crux of the issue to me here; she's teaching another generation of students here that can make indulgent parents smile but may not be able to effectively express the desires of the composer in terms of dynamics. Definitely not going to win any competitive awards. Not really a life-or-death issue, but probably worth some criticism. 

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Most fundies who play instruments are bland and devoid of feelings to me. Erin does feel genuine which makes me like her playing a bit more. I agree that she overworks her music sometimes and it becomes too flowery but I can still listen to her and enjoy it (for what it is, I am not that much into this style of music in general). Perhaps this makes me too nice to her but I can live with that. I don't know enough to comment on how she plays. When pointed out to me yes, it does look like the position of her hands isn't that comfortable but to me this has to be her thing to change if she is not happy about it. I can't hold a pen the proper way without pain but I can write and do basic sketching if I use my own grip, I am not judging the how for other people in this, even fundies. 

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On 28.3.2016 at 1:18 AM, AlysonRR said:

She's a banger, too. I'm a banger (13yr piano lessons, played for several church groups back when I was a Christian), too, and it's a hard habit to break. I bang on the keyboard of a computer, too - drives my husband nuts. I need the tactile response from the keys. Yes, I can play quietly, but my general tendency is to push vigorously.

 

Boy am I glad I never learned to play the piano now. I bang the hell out of a computer keyboard. LOL

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17 hours ago, daisyd681 said:

I haven't seen anything mean or nasty said in this thread, and I tend toward sensitive to that stuff since I'm an artist too. 

There seems to be a large consensus that she bangs on the keys and over does the flourishes for people's taste. I have to agree about the banging. I didn't know who played the piano at Jill's wedding, but the one thing I remember is the harsh, angry sound of the piano. It startled me and I had to turn the tv down.

If no one ever criticizes her playing, how will she know how to improve? None of what's been said here is any worse than has been said to me by teachers in junior high school band. 

Thanks. It's not mean or nasty. Plus when did artists become such special little flowers that nobody can criticize their "product?" I don't know about the conservatory, but in fine arts, applied arts (pottery, fashion) and writing learning to take critiques is a huge part of the learning process--for one thing, to get over the idea that just because you love something or it took a long time it's any good, and also to learn to evaluate the critique itself--deciding whom to listen to and whom not to.

And yes, once you play in public, start hawking CDs and appearing on TV and putting yourself on youtube, you're fair game for critics. Even those like me who don't play anything and probably don't have the most educated ear but still don't think I could listen to Erin's playing for more than a few minutes without wanting to rip my ear out.

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As a current music major- Erin's playing sounds really amateurish in general.

Then again, I don't think she necessarily has access to good training (even pre-conservatory style training) so I can't hold it as a testament to poor work ethic. I think maybe exposure to different repertoire, as well as getting a better teacher might help.

But I can see why a teacher that could actually help her would stay far away from fundie communities. While church jobs are common most musicians I know wouldn't touch legit fundamentalism with a 10-foot pole.

Honestly, can't say much about her being open to criticism as it's already been said.

 

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The fact that Erin (and the Bates in general) seem to embrace music beyond hymns and watered-down instrumentals will never stop being a glimmer of quality to me. Erin seems dedicated and skilled, and I do honestly think it's her silly culture holding her back more than any lack of intrinsic talent, and that's sad...

That said, much of Erin's playing just reminds me of the "too many notes" part of Amadeus (which she probably hasn't seen, sadly).

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43 minutes ago, NakedKnees said:

That said, much of Erin's playing just reminds me of the "too many notes" part of Amadeus (which she probably hasn't seen, sadly).

The director's cut would shock all of them silly, but that movie is so good!

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This thread forced me to go looking for videos on YouTube of Erin playing. 

I agree, her style is very flowery. It distracts at times from the beauty of the music - especially when she's playing with Andy or one of her sisters. And she does seem to hit the keys rather... I guess aggressively? If she toned both down a bit I think there would be a big improvement overall. She had a lot of natural talent - the right instructor would have done wonders for her. 

Other than that I can't speak on anything else. I never learned to play piano, but I wish I had - my mom played as a kid and her father's mother taught piano (she was rather good apparently.) 

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Yeah, it really pisses me off that a lot of these fundie kids could probably, while maybe not being international music stars, achieve fairly good competency on their instrument of choice. And it's really too bad that it appears they're not getting quality instruction...even if someone has no bit of talent whatsoever they can learn a lot with practice and a decent teacher.

Also, they don't have quality instruments either- Erin appears to be playing on some out of tune, just sucky in general pianos in some of those videos.

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I think she has a tremendous amount of talent, and I have listened to youtube videos of her playing more than once, but she is a bit over the top at times. The way she holds her hands makes my wrists her though. Jinger does the same thing. When I took piano lessons, my teacher always told us to pretend we had a bubble underneath our hands and if we dropped them, we popped the bubble. Their hands are always so flat and they're hunched over. It just looks painful.

But I like that she loves it and teaches other kids. I think that's wonderful. 

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3 hours ago, HarleyQuinn said:

I think she has a tremendous amount of talent, and I have listened to youtube videos of her playing more than once, but she is a bit over the top at times. The way she holds her hands makes my wrists her though. Jinger does the same thing. When I took piano lessons, my teacher always told us to pretend we had a bubble underneath our hands and if we dropped them, we popped the bubble. Their hands are always so flat and they're hunched over. It just looks painful.

But I like that she loves it and teaches other kids. I think that's wonderful. 

I was warned that there was an elephant on my wrist and too high and he got frostbite; too low and he drowned.  I tried to keep the elephant alive as best as possible.

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