Liturgy in IFB - LOT of questions !

October 23, 2014

I should mention that my experience with IFB was in the 80's and early 90's. Things might have changed since then. I do remember one part of the service that, if there was a visitor, they would ask the visitor to raise their hand or stand so that the ushers could hand them a card to fill out with their personal info(like name and address) to place in the offering plate. The following Tuesday people from the church would always drop by to visit and encourage the people to become members of the church.

i remember that, too.

i was raised in churches, so i attended very religiously (pun not entirely intended) from when i was a baby (1987) until i was rendered pretty much homeless at the end of 2007, though by that time i was in a very liberal, non-denominational church.

October 23, 2014

I should mention that my experience with IFB was in the 80's and early 90's. Things might have changed since then. I do remember one part of the service that, if there was a visitor, they would ask the visitor to raise their hand or stand so that the ushers could hand them a card to fill out with their personal info(like name and address) to place in the offering plate. The following Tuesday people from the church would always drop by to visit and encourage the people to become members of the church.

Ugh, yes, visitation. I think my old home church still does it this way. As a Sunday School teacher, I was required to do visitation except it was Monday nights. Hated it.

October 23, 2014

Luckily most of the churches in my area had Tuesday night visitation so if you visited a church, dropped the visitors card in the offering plate, and then by the end of the service realized that there is no way you were ever coming back to that church, you could always just spend the next month avoiding being at home on Tuesday evenings. :lol:

October 23, 2014

I didn't hate it for this reason but so many people complained because it interfered with Monday Night Football.

October 23, 2014

I love Just As I Am... its one of my favorites.

Although when I first heard it (that I know of) I was listening to an album of Dolly Parton's family... it was her sisters Cassie, Stella, and Willadeene and their mother. And it wasn't terribly slow, kind of had a nice even tempo.

How Great Thou Art is another favorite of mine, and recently I learned that it has been redone so many times its not even funny. But when I hear Stella sing it on The Parton Family Sings In The Garden, it makes me feel what she is feeling.

This thread is interesting.

October 23, 2014

I think I would like Just As I Am better if I didn't associate it with being hungry, tired, and just bored out of my mind.

October 23, 2014

I prefer Just as I Am to Washed in the Blood of the Lamb. Washed in the Blood should be a commercial for laundry detergent. "Have you been to Jesus Persil for the cleansing power? / Are your garments all spotless? / Are they white as the snow? / Are you washed in the blood of the Lamb best soap around?"

October 23, 2014

Now I have Washed in the Blood of the Lamb stuck in my head. :lol:

October 23, 2014

I prefer Just as I Am to Washed in the Blood of the Lamb. Washed in the Blood should be a commercial for laundry detergent. "Have you been to Jesus Persil for the cleansing power? / Are your garments all spotless? / Are they white as the snow? / Are you washed in the blood of the Lamb best soap around?"

at least "washed in the blood" could be mildly entertaining. i remember singing it in rounds.

"are you washed..." everybody! "in the blood..." just the men! "are you washed in the blood of the lamb?" just the women, now! "are your garmets spotless, are they white as snow?" children, sing loud, now! "are you washed in the blood of the lamb?"

October 23, 2014

at least "washed in the blood" could be mildly entertaining. i remember singing it in rounds.

"are you washed..." everybody! "in the blood..." just the men! "are you washed in the blood of the lamb?" just the women, now! "are your garmets spotless, are they white as snow?" children, sing loud, now! "are you washed in the blood of the lamb?"

:lol: That is exactly how it was always sang at the churches I went to. I realize that to people who were not raised singing about bathing in blood this might sound crazy, but it never occurred to me that there was anything strange about this song until I was an adult.

For all the people who have never heard this song:

[bBvideo 560,340:2vk6i3qc]

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October 23, 2014

Somewhere there is a video of Joy Duggar and several Howlers singing Washed in the Blood. Joy is leading but forgets the words and completely corpses. She has to go off stage she is laughing so hard. It's why she is my favorite Duggar.

ETA. Just in case people don't understand - corpsing is British theatrical slang for actors unintentionally breaking character by laughing hysterically.

October 23, 2014

Is there a liturgy at the IFB ?
How is a cult / Mass ?

Is there often the Eucharist ?

Do they read the Bible during the mass ?

Do the Bible readings follow an annual order, or just what the pastor wants ?

Old AND New Testament ?

Is the sermon connected to the biblical text ?

The sermons speaks often about what ?

Do they sing a lot?

What ?

In the Eucharist, how does it take place ?

With a host or real bread ?

Wine or grape juice ?

Who can take the Eucharist (child or adult) ?

Is baptisms during mass?

Are theyre are other ceremonies during Mass ?

For former IFB : do you liked to go at the mass ?

THank you for answering my questions :)

I go to a Baptist church.

1. We have an order of services (prayer,hymns/worship songs, offering, sermon and close with prayer.

2. We call the eucharist the Lord's Supper.

3. We do read the Bible and services.

4. Whatever the pastor wants to.

5. Yes Old and New.

6. We sing about 4 to 5 songs.

7. Yes usually the Bible passage is connected.

8. We only take the Lord Supper once a quarter

9. His sermons range on topic, mostly he talks about God's love, loving one another etc..

10.We go up and the Deacons serve us the bread and grape juice.

11. They need to be a member or a church. So age isn't an issue.

12. Yes our baptisms are usually held at the beginning of a service.

13. No.

14. Im not IFB, so I can't really answer that.

Sorry I should have mentioned this first. We call mass just chruch service. I hope this helps you out.

October 23, 2014

Marianne, I find your questions quite interesting in light that you are asking about Baptists but in a Catholicly kind of way. My experience is as a Southern Baptist Convention member, which is not IFB but they are similar in a lot of ways, at least from what I just read by googling. A lot of IFB formed when they left associations and conventions, which the SBC is the largest Baptist organization today.

My experience, living in the South, is that SBC is very common. Throw a stick in any direction anywhere you are and you'll probably hit a Southern Baptist. I've never known anyone who said they were IFB, cannot recall ever seeing a church building identified as IFB, but every town in Texas has at least one SBC church. Maybe not every single little spit of a town, but it's common as dirt.

Your questions and my answers:

Is there a liturgy at the IFB ? Most Baptists would probably have no idea what you mean by the word 'liturgy.' The closest I can come is what is called 'order of service.' There is a new bulletin printed every week, generally at the church itself but sometimes contracted out to a local printer. This completely controlled by the pastor and associated ministers, usually a youth minister and a music minister.

How is a cult / Mass ?No idea what you mean by cult, but it is not called a Mass. Around here that is strictly Catholic. Churches hold services Sunday morning, Sunday night and Wednesday night, on the regular. Bigger churches have multiple services on Sunday morning, sometimes these are by musical preference, i.e. one service will feature hymns and piano/organ, another service will feature contemporary music and a band. Choir might or might not perform at both.

Is there often the Eucharist ? Again, around here that is a strictly Catholic term. Baptists take communion, generally once a quarter (every three months). You are supposed to be a member of that particular church but no one vets you or would refuse you if you took it. I've seen it passed around by ushers and I've seen people line up to go down front to pick up their own.

Do they read the Bible during the mass ? Not like in Catholic church, where someone will stand up and read a passage. During a sermon, the pastor will probably say "please open your Bible to such and such passage."

Do the Bible readings follow an annual order, or just what the pastor wants ? No readings, no particular order. I've heard that if you attend Catholic Mass on schedule, like once a week, in three years you will hear the entire Bible read. There is nothing comparable in SBC.

Old AND New Testament ? It's NT with honor given to OT.

Is the sermon connected to the biblical text ? The sermon is the "main thing" in a church service. It seemed to me while attending Catholic Mass (for about 2-3 years) that the homily is one of several parts of the Mass. At SBC it is the main deal.

The sermons speaks often about what ? Whatever the pastor wants to talk about. Some use printed guides but it is not mandatory at all. I'm sure it's not easy coming up with a new idea every week. Some pastors preach a series over a particular topic, whenever it strikes their fancy to do so.

Do they sing a lot? It's a regular part of the service.

What ? There is/was a Baptist hymnal, usually stored on the backs of the pews. Very often now the words are on a screen instead.

In the Eucharist, how does it take place ? During communion, the pastor goes over the verses about this is my body, then crackers and juice are used. It is symbolism, there is no transubstantiation or consubstantiation at all. No transforming of the bread or juice, period.

With a host or real bread ? Few Baptists probably know what a host is. It's a cracker and there are no specifics as to how it is made.

Wine or grape juice ? Purple grape juice, always.

Who can take the Eucharist (child or adult) ? Any church member can participate in Communion, there is no prerequisite like confession. To be a church member means you have made a public profession of faith and have been baptized by immersion. Public profession of faith means you went down front at the end of a service, and stood there while the pastor explains who you are and that you are making a public profession. It is not necessary for you to say anything. Then people line up to shake your hand.

Is baptisms during mass? Baptisms occur during regular church services. There are no special or extra times that people go up to the church to be baptized.

Are theyre are other ceremonies during Mass ? Sometimes there is a baby dedication, usually during morning services. Can't think of any others atm.

For former IFB : do you liked to go at the mass ? Did I enjoy going to church? At some points of my life, after I became an adult. When I was kid, yeah. As a teen, no. Eventually I left it completely.

:eleventy:

That's pretty much how it went in my childhood church with the addition of multiple Praise Breaks lasting 15 minutes or more when some members caught the Holy Ghost. Also, children were dismissed for Sunday school after the choir's call to worship and 1st Reading only to return in time to hear the sermon.

Is baptisms during mass?

It depend on the church's schedule. It was rare to have Baptism during Sunday morning service, it was usually scheduled for Sunday evening service.

Do they sing a lot?

Very much so! In addition to the songs in the program, musical selections were very improvisational. African-American churches utilize call-and-response in sermon and song. Anyone can start a song, and a good choir/band director will run with it.

For former IFB : do you liked to go at the mass ?

As a child, it was a chore to be in church 8a-2:30p and again 6:30p-8ish. I envied those who were only in church for an hour. I miss the pageantry of my old church. We dressed in our Sunday best. The deacons and deaconesses were flawless in their attire. These hipster pastors with their prosperity gospel do nothing for me. I've been conditioned by old school preaching. Most of all, I miss the music. A good gospel choir and band can transform any tired hymn with an original arrangement and harmony.

"Are You Washed in the Blood of the Lamb" was an alter call song in my neck of woods too! Our version went more like this:

http://youtu.be/88F-_eclcq4

October 23, 2014

I don't know whether Marianne is asking specifically about IFB, or Baptists and Protestants in general. I grew up attending several denominations including UK Baptist and Methodist, and later CoE (it's a long story but my father church shopped a lot.) The UK Baptist and Methodist churches had a definite orders of service (liturgies), and the CoE Book of Common prayer was mentioned above. The Baptist bit was not much like the Southern Baptist Convention and nothing like IFB.

I also wanted to note that other extreme Protestant Fundies we discuss here belong to different denominations and have different ways of handling Eucharist/Communion/Lord's Supper. This is even though their Protestant "worship services" may be seem very similar to IFB practices others have described.

Couple of examples: R.C. Sproul Jr., AKA Spanky, went down on paedocommunion (and some alleged financial hanky-panky) at Ligonier and had to change denominations. He was ordained with the Reformed Presbyterian Church General Assembly and had to switch to the Covenant Presbyterian Church because of giving communion to young children.

Doug Phillips at BCA had the fathers - only the fathers - go up and collect the bread and wine (or crackers and grape juice) and distribute them to the family, including adult children. Or not, if Daddy decided anyone was unworthy that day. DPIAT also relied much more heavily on the OT than the NT. Allegedly.

I guess both Sproul and Doug/BCA are Calvinist and (nominally) Reformed Presbyterian. BCA definitely is, because it subscribes to the Westminster Confession of Faith. At least, it says it does.

These two covenant churches may or may not belong to the official Evangelical Covenant Church denomination. I think not. It seems to me that anyone can start a church hang out a shingle using buzz words like Baptist (see Westboro), or Reformed, Covenant, Evangelical, and so on.

It all gives me a headache!

ETA. A high church CoE/Anglican Communion Service is practically the same in form and liturgy as a post-Vatican II American Catholic Mass. Except for the transubstantiation bit, and I know some Anglicans who believe in that. At least, my very Catholic US in-laws couldn't tell the difference in the services except for the priest's British accent!

October 23, 2014

I'm going to answer then read so sorry in advance if any of this is repetitious.

Is there a liturgy at the IFB ? The only ceremonies are baptism and the Lord's Supper (eucharist).

How is a cult / Mass ? Typical order of service is a hymn standing, prayer, a hymn sitting, announcements, hand shaking, offering while the pianist plays a hymn, another hymn, sermon, invitation

Is there often the Eucharist ? It varies. Jesus said "as often as you do it" rather than specifying how often. As a general rule, probably once a month is most common.

Do they read the Bible during the mass ? The Bible is read, often the congregation reads along.

Do the Bible readings follow an annual order, or just what the pastor wants ? The pastor does what he wants, but he may be in a series, preaching through a particular book of the Bible, so you have a pretty good idea what is coming up.

Old AND New Testament ? Yes.

Is the sermon connected to the biblical text ? Depends on the preacher, but ideally, yes.

The sermons speaks often about what ? How to live, what to do, what not to do

Do they sing a lot? Yes.

What ? Hymns. Some may allow choruses.

In the Eucharist, how does it take place ? Usually a plate is passed rather like an offering plate up and down the pews.

With a host or real bread ? Some sort of cracker wafer.

Wine or grape juice ? Grape juice! Fermentation represent sin. Wine would be sacrilegious for the Lord's Supper.

Who can take the Eucharist (child or adult) ? All the churches I attended required the person to be saved. Some also required baptism.

Is baptisms during mass? The baptism usually takes place at the beginning or end of the service.

Are theyre are other ceremonies during Mass ? Sometimes there is a baby dedication (discussed elsewhere).

For former IFB : do you liked to go at the mass ? I do like to go to service, some times more than others! Now that I attend a church with only a Sunday morning service (not an extremist IFB, still baptist but not part of any denomination), it is easier to like it because I don't feel like I am there as much as I am at home.

October 23, 2014

@formergothardite - I've read on SFL about Just as I Am on repeat and I always thought it was a joke. This actually happens? It's a thing that happens in different IFB churches?

Yes, in special services it can literally go on for hours.

Holy, Holy, Holy(it is one of my favorite hymns), At Calvary, All Hail the Power of Jesus' Name, To God Be the Glory, Great Things He Hath Done, Crown Him With Many Crowns, and At The Cross, are some of the hymns I remember being sang a lot at the several IFB churches I went to. Amazing how these hymns have stuck in my head. .

Victory in Jesus, When the Roll is Called Up Yonder, Savior Like a Shepherd Lead Me, When I Survey the Wondrous Cross. . .

October 23, 2014

How could I have forgotten Victory in Jesus?! There is also The Old Rugged Cross, He Lives and Just a Closer Walk With Thee that were common hymns. A hymn that was often used at the end of a service(after the altar call) was Blest Be the Tie That Binds.

October 23, 2014

Nothing to add about IFB.. I"ve never even been to a SBC service.

But I have a slightly amusing story about communion at a Presbyterian church. My dad is a retired Presbyterian pastor. For communion bread they usually used plain white bread cut into cubes in the plates that got passed around, and then I think he had some whole piece up front to break. That piece varied... (this was in the Midwest, in the 80s, when real whole bread loaves just weren't a thing).. but could be a roll or a piece of pita bread or something like that. I guess one time the ushers were either playing a joke on him or else forgot it was communion week and had to raid their lunch stash... anyway, when he uncovered the sacraments there was a twinkie. He apparently covered pretty well.... I only heard this story from him after the fact.

October 24, 2014

Oh god, the altar calls. At our church we didn't sing unless it was a guest preacher and he had us sing, and that always excited me because it at least gave me something to do. The way it usually went was that we were asked to stand with our heads bowed and our eyes closed, the pastor would pray for God's working in the invitation, and then the pianist would start to play. And play. And play. All while the pastor kept up a running monologue of "does Jesus have your all?" and "if you died today" type crap, sometimes with a "if God is speaking to your heart, raise your hand and I'll pray for you" thrown in. If not enough people came forward, he'd say something along the lines of "I feel that God is still working, that there is still someone here resisting the voice of God, so I'm going to have the pianist play through just x more number of verses." All of which meant that by the time he finally got done we'd have been standing there FOREVER.

Anyway, I grew up IFB since my parents switched to that from Methodist to when I was one. Here's my answers:

Is there a liturgy at the IFB ? - Not really, no.

How is a cult / Mass ? - Like others have said, mass was strictly a Catholic term, and they were all part of the whore of Babylon. Our pastor would probably have rather died than use that term. But we had Sunday school at 10, Sunday morning service at 11, another service at 6, and then Wednesday night at 7. Unless it was spring or fall revival, in which case we'd have a service every night at 7 for a week solid.

Is there often the Eucharist ? - We didn't call it that because that was Catholic too, we called it the Lord's Supper. Essentially we did it whenever the pastor felt like doing it. I think it usually worked out to be once every two or three months.

Do they read the Bible during the mass ? - Yes. Sometimes a single verse, sometimes a couple of verses, sometimes a whole chapter or more, depending on what the pastor wanted.

Do the Bible readings follow an annual order, or just what the pastor wants ? - No annual order, it's whatever the pastor wanted.

Old AND New Testament ? - Yes, sometimes in the same service.

Is the sermon connected to the biblical text ? - Yes, always. At least in the churches I went to.

The sermons speaks often about what ? - Anything and everything the pastor wanted. And he didn't always stay on his own topic either, ours was particularly fond of rabbit trailing about the evils of American culture/politics/gays/whatever had been in the news that week as God "laid it on his heart."

Do they sing a lot? - I suppose that depends on your definition of a lot. On Sunday mornings, the service would start with a hymn, there'd be a hand shaking time, then another hymn, then the choir would sing a special, we'd sing one more hymn to let the choir go down, and then someone from the congregation would sing a special right before the sermon. On Sunday nights it would be hymn-hand shaking-hymn-special. On Wednesday nights it would be just the hymn-hand shaking-hymn bit. On rare occasions to shake things up the pastor would have the song leader request favorite hymns from the congregation and we'd do another four or five, but that happened maybe once or twice a year.

What ? - Hymns, mostly. Some praise type music. None of the popular stuff though, think Crown College Ensemble stuff. This one was particularly popular while I was growing up.

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In the Eucharist, how does it take place ? - In our church, the pastor would call the deacons up to the front, and there was this whole ceremony where he would read the passage about the bread being the body and then the pianist would play while the deacons passed the bread in little silver plates offering style. When everyone had one, he'd pray over it, and we'd eat it. Same for the little plastic cups of grape juice. And there was always a sermon first about the seriousness of it and how if you took it and you weren't saved or weren't right with God you would be punished for it.

With a host or real bread ? - Little tasteless cracker things about the size of a piece of gum. You know, the candy coated ones that come in foil packs? Like that.

Wine or grape juice ? - Definitely grape juice. Alcohol was a huge no-no. I mean, our pastor preached that Jesus turned the water into grape juice at the wedding in Cana, so yeah.

Who can take the Eucharist (child or adult) ? - Our church would allow any IFB person, visitor or not, who said they were saved take it no matter what their age. I knew of other churches though who would only allow members to take it as a precaution against non-IFB's and unsaved people taking it. My own parents would not allow any of us kids to take it until we were 12 even though we all made professions of faith around 4-5 just to make sure we were old enough to understand the seriousness of what we were doing.

Is baptisms during mass? - Our baptisms were usually after the Sunday evening service, other churches would do it after pretty much any service.

Are theyre are other ceremonies during Mass ? - Not that I can recall.

For former IFB : do you liked to go at the mass ? - No. I used to, growing up, because we were also homeschooled and it was pretty much the only social interaction of any kind that I got. By the time I left, no. It's been two years now since I set foot in church of any kind and I'm still burned out on it.

October 24, 2014

My apologies if I'm giving a lot of unwanted info.

I forgot that most often SBC has the Lord's Supper and do not call it communion.

Also, IME there is a known and particular order of service and there is a specific time frame which adhered to, i.e. Sunday School starts at 9:30, is over by 10:30, service starts at 10:45, over by noon. Any pastor who goes much over the noon deadline is going to be fielding a LOT of complaints. People like to get home, have Sunday dinner and take naps before heading back to church for evening service at 6.

Also, it wasn't asked but I find this an interesting part of church life, so here goes.

SBC is very big on what they call the priesthood of the believer. This means you don't need a pastor or priest to stand before God for you, every saved person stands for him/herself. This also means you get a vote in what happens in your church. What I saw most often was budget voting. Sometimes Wed night service is actually a business meeting in which all members present can vote on whatever is up for vote.

The only thing I remember voting on was the budget. It is published and passed out to whoever wants it or comes to the budget meeting. People can comment in the meeting. The meeting is held in the sanctuary so usually plenty of room. I remember looking at the salaries and perks of the all pastoral staff.

Another thing is that the altar area is not a sacred area. You don't want your little kids to go playing up there but it's not like the altar area at a Catholic church.

All I got for now.

October 24, 2014

I prefer Just as I Am to Washed in the Blood of the Lamb. Washed in the Blood should be a commercial for laundry detergent. "Have you been to Jesus Persil for the cleansing power? / Are your garments all spotless? / Are they white as the snow? / Are you washed in the blood of the Lamb best soap around?"

:lol:

It was also handy for a parody about Teri Maxwell and the Incident of the Cheese Paper:

Have you peeled that cheese off at this eating hour?