How Do the Duggars Reconcile Amy and Their Beliefs?

[LongDogMom]

Although Amy doesn't seem to be on as much as she used to, for a while they seemed to take her along on trips and stuff and I wondered how they reconciled her wearing pants and listening to music on her Ipod and other stuff that they don't allow their daughters to do? I mean, do they tell their girls that Amy is going to Hell? Or that she dresses like a slut? I mean, is music is so evil and leads to immoral behaviour...are they saying that will happen to Amy? It's weird that none of the older girls seem to question that. Does anyone know more about how they deal with her and their belief systems clearly clashing?

[NotALoserLikeYou]

I think they love and like her but they don't condone her behavior. And that means that she dates and wears bikinis. I don't think they are overt about it but do passive aggressive things like not follow her on instagram. Just to let her know that her pics and life are inappropriate. If it were the Maxwells then they wouldn't be allowed to see her at all. I think the duggars use her as an example of what happens when you don't follow the rules. She's not married because she has one failed relationship after the other. She's like their example of what can go wrong when you don't court. Act like her and you too can suffer heartbreak and punishment.

[Mela99]

I think they have genuine affection for her - Jim Bob certainly seems to, anyway - but I have no doubt that they point out everything that is wrong and sinful about her, and use her as an example of worldly, slutty, giving-your-heart-away, gay-friendly, el-no good-o (channeling Boob there) who needs saving.

[alba]

I think they'd maybe be less accepting of her if she had a successful career or was married with kids (or both!). If she was (apparently) happily married with kids, it would show the Duggar offspring that courtship isn't the only route to their end goal. On the other hand, if she had a successful career, while that's not something the Duggars condone, it would show the older daughters that they have other options.

As it is, she's a perfect example for Boob and Jichelle of why the secular world is wrong. Her only "career" is the music one, and AFAIK there's no sign of marriage and babies (which may be by choice, but that would still tell the Duggars that the secular world causes you to reject your calling).

[sockinshoe]

I think they have genuine affection for her - Jim Bob certainly seems to, anyway - but I have no doubt that they point out everything that is wrong and sinful about her, and use her as an example of worldly, slutty, giving-your-heart-away, gay-friendly, el-no good-o (channeling Boob there) who needs saving.

I think Michelle LOATHES her. She's basically living the life Michelle could have lived. She's young, spunky, attractive, worldly, and very comfortable with herself. I would not be at all surprised to hear of Amy mowing the lawn in a bikini. Michelle gave up her worldliness, her sassiness, and large portions of her personality and self-esteem to be a "godly" wife. She probably resents Amy for not having been struck by lightning for her evil, sinful ways (showing Michelle that you can be Christian and wear a bikini/kiss a guy/enjoy your life).

The "Michelle coulda been Amy" theory also explains why Jim Bob is so close to Amy. When he started pursuing Michelle, she was not that into him and probably a lot more sassy/spunky than she is now. As he was drawn to that version of Michelle, I can see him being drawn to Amy (not in an incest-y way, just in a companionable way). JB has always "favoured" his more willful and outgoing daughters (Jessa, Hannie), while Michelle has clearly NOT. I think that makes Michelle even more insecure-- her worldview dictates that men and women cannot be just friends and her husband seems to be better friends with his niece than with his own kids. Also, by suspecting something/doubting her headship, she's being an ungodly shrew and may go to hell.

I also think the older girls (exception: Joy) do not like Amy. Particularly Jinger and Jessa seem, to me, to be a lot like Amy in character. And I recall Jinger and Amy being very close for a time. Perhaps Michelle discouraged that relationship (although she doesn't seem to try and prevent Joy and Amy from being close) or perhaps Jinger realized that being around Amy made her notice how much her life was gonna suck or maybe they "grew apart" because Jinger had to become a fundie woman and "work on her contentment", while Amy got to stay herself.

[LongDogMom]

I think they'd maybe be less accepting of her if she had a successful career or was married with kids (or both!). If she was (apparently) happily married with kids, it would show the Duggar offspring that courtship isn't the only route to their end goal. On the other hand, if she had a successful career, while that's not something the Duggars condone, it would show the older daughters that they have other options. As it is, she's a perfect example for Boob and Jichelle of why the secular world is wrong. Her only "career" is the music one, and AFAIK there's no sign of marriage and babies (which may be by choice, but that would still tell the Duggars that the secular world causes you to reject your calling).

Oooh, I think you're right! I never considered that. Now I really really want her to meet some wonderful guy who asks her to marry him and encourages her career as well. I would love to see them have to go to Amy's wedding and see firsthand that even us slutty heathens can meet wonderful men who love and respect us! HA!

[LongDogMom]

Well I'm glad the girls at least have some exposure to what life COULD be like. It'll be interesting to see how it pans out. Amy could end up being a strong support for any of the girls that do decide to rebel and leave.

You would think that the girls must still wonder about being able to live like that themselves. Their life is so restrictive and their future so narrow. Maybe not all the girls have wondered but I wouldn't be surprised if Jinger has. Wasn't she the one who wanted to live in the city? That isn't exactly in line with the life she's supposed to be preparing for. I hope if Jinger does decide to leave, Amy is there for her and that that gives her that small amount of strength and courage to break away (as opposed to not knowing anyone who isn't part of the cult)

[It'sFunToRun]

Although Amy doesn't seem to be on as much as she used to, for a while they seemed to take her along on trips and stuff and I wondered how they reconciled her wearing pants and listening to music on her Ipod and other stuff that they don't allow their daughters to do? I mean, do they tell their girls that Amy is going to Hell? Or that she dresses like a slut? I mean, is music is so evil and leads to immoral behaviour...are they saying that will happen to Amy? It's weird that none of the older girls seem to question that. Does anyone know more about how they deal with her and their belief systems clearly clashing?

I think the Duggars believe that if someone is saved they can go to heaven if they live a sinful life, so I don't think they believe Amy will go to hell, just that Jesus will give her a stern talking to and a time out when she arrives at the pearly gates.

[JBsHairspray]

I think they have genuine affection for her - Jim Bob certainly seems to, anyway - but I have no doubt that they point out everything that is wrong and sinful about her, and use her as an example of worldly, slutty, giving-your-heart-away, gay-friendly, el-no good-o (channeling Boob there) who needs saving.

I'm sure there's an episode of 19KAC where one of the Howlers says something along the lines of "Amy doesn't believe the same things we do but we still love her". Thereby reinforcing that, from a young age, they are taught that Amy is the example not to live up to but to tolerate and hope she learns from her sinful, pant-wearing, guy kissing, chaperone free dating, worldly wanton ways.

[BrownieMomma]

Jim Bob's mother is very attached to Amy, I think that is obvious from watching the show. Personally, I think all this Gothard stuff is Michelle, and not really so much Jim Bob. I think Jim Bob is genuine in his affection for his niece, as well as his mother and his sister. So Jim Bob is not going to rock the boat with his family by ignoring or casting out Amy.

However, I can readily see where Amy is held up as the example of everything not to do. And there's probably some self-congratulating going on by Michelle and possibly the older girls.. see what good Christians we are, we include that godless immoral Amy in our family.

I think there is a lot of looking down at Amy with certain family members but with Jim Bob, he probably doesn't look down on her at all but either doesn't realize it is going on or turns a blind eye to it.

[sockinshoe]

Jim Bob's mother is very attached to Amy, I think that is obvious from watching the show. Personally, I think all this Gothard stuff is Michelle, and not really so much Jim Bob. I think Jim Bob is genuine in his affection for his niece, as well as his mother and his sister. So Jim Bob is not going to rock the boat with his family by ignoring or casting out Amy.

However, I can readily see where Amy is held up as the example of everything not to do. And there's probably some self-congratulating going on by Michelle and possibly the older girls.. see what good Christians we are, we include that godless immoral Amy in our family.

I think there is a lot of looking down at Amy with certain family members but with Jim Bob, he probably doesn't look down on her at all but either doesn't realize it is going on or turns a blind eye to it.

I've also noticed that Mrs. Mary Duggar is more partial to Amy than to the other grandchildren. I've always wondered why she chose to live with Jim Bob over living with Deanna. Because, Mrs. Duggar, although a conservative Christian, does not strike me as very Gothard-y. She was a business owner, allowed her kids to date, doesn't seem to mind terribly that her eldest granddaughter was born out of wedlock, etc.

The relationship between Mrs. Duggar and Amy seems very very close. I also find it interesting how Joy and Mrs. Duggar have been sharing talking heads while Joy and Amy are getting closer... I think Mrs. Duggar and Amy might be trying to get Joy out (they tried with Jinger, but it didn't work) *removes conspiracy hat*.

[utter solitude]

I've also noticed that Mrs. Mary Duggar is more partial to Amy than to the other grandchildren. I've always wondered why she chose to live with Jim Bob over living with Deanna. Because, Mrs. Duggar, although a conservative Christian, does not strike me as very Gothard-y. She was a business owner, allowed her kids to date, doesn't seem to mind terribly that her eldest granddaughter was born out of wedlock, etc.

The relationship between Mrs. Duggar and Amy seems very very close. I also find it interesting how Joy and Mrs. Duggar have been sharing talking heads while Joy and Amy are getting closer... I think Mrs. Duggar and Amy might be trying to get Joy out (they tried with Jinger, but it didn't work) *removes conspiracy hat*.

It looked like Boob offered their space and help with his father, and his mother just never left. I assumed this was more financially feasible for Boob? I've also assumed that his mother has stayed because helping with the children gives her more of a feeling of purpose (and maybe even she's trying to monitor Boob's crazy beliefs) My mom is about to retire, and keeps urging me to pop out some kids for her to "have something to do".

I would assume that Boob, if directly asked about Amy, would spout some nonsense about they know their beliefs aren't for everybody, and they love and accept Amy for who she is. Blah blah.

[keen23]

Isn't the saying "love the sinner, hate the sin"?

[BrownieMomma]

I've also noticed that Mrs. Mary Duggar is more partial to Amy than to the other grandchildren. I've always wondered why she chose to live with Jim Bob over living with Deanna. Because, Mrs. Duggar, although a conservative Christian, does not strike me as very Gothard-y. She was a business owner, allowed her kids to date, doesn't seem to mind terribly that her eldest granddaughter was born out of wedlock, etc.

The relationship between Mrs. Duggar and Amy seems very very close. I also find it interesting how Joy and Mrs. Duggar have been sharing talking heads while Joy and Amy are getting closer... I think Mrs. Duggar and Amy might be trying to get Joy out (they tried with Jinger, but it didn't work) *removes conspiracy hat*.

My guess on that is when Grandpa needed physical assistance, clearly it would be easier on Jim Bob's family to share that load than to put it all on Deanna. I think Mary is very comfortable with both her children but probably Jim Bob just had a better setup.

Then, ofc, she's trapped by the laundry room and someone needs to FREE MARY.

[Sundaymorning]

I think the Duggars believe that if someone is saved they can go to heaven if they live a sinful life, so I don't think they believe Amy will go to hell, just that Jesus will give her a stern talking to and a time out when she arrives at the pearly gates.

This. Since they believe that salvation is by grace through faith alone, and not through works, so you can basically live a horribly sinful life and still get saved, as long as you believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, although yes, God will punish you for your sins.

It's basically the belief that no matter how good you try to be, you fail anyway and aren't good enough to get saved by your own "works", only through Gods grace.

[mausi]

My guess on that is when Grandpa needed physical assistance, clearly it would be easier on Jim Bob's family to share that load than to put it all on Deanna. I think Mary is very comfortable with both her children but probably Jim Bob just had a better setup.

Then, ofc, she's trapped by the laundry room and someone needs to FREE MARY.

Yeah, I don't consider Grandma Mary living in the TTH to be a big patriarchal conspiracy about JB ruling over his own mother or anything. There's just more room there. A lot more room, probably. Amy's parents' house might not even have an extra room available.

[JBsHairspray]

Yeah, I don't consider Grandma Mary living in the TTH to be a big patriarchal conspiracy about JB ruling over his own mother or anything. There's just more room there. A lot more room, probably. Amy's parents' house might not even have an extra room available.

[utter solitude]

Yeah, I don't consider Grandma Mary living in the TTH to be a big patriarchal conspiracy about JB ruling over his own mother or anything. There's just more room there. A lot more room, probably. Amy's parents' house might not even have an extra room available.

^^^^^This. I have a few friends whose widowed mothers have moved in with them to "help" with the children (even if they don't really need it). All parties involved seem to enjoy it, it's not all that strange.

The only thing that grates on me about it is Boob referring to his mother as "Grandma" literally all. the. time.

[Emme]

I think they see her as their long term, right in the family mission project. Like "One day, we will get Amy to see her evil ways and she will join us!" type thing. Or at least that's how they justify it!

[mebeforee]

I think a lot of it has to do with the 'love the sinner, hate the sin' mentality. But I also honestly think the majority of it has to do with JimBob coming from such a small family (compared to Michelle, and especially compared to his own). He has always been very close with his sister, and Michelle has commented upon that before, and thus even though he might believe she is a sinner and that her husband/daughter is also a sinner, that they are still Good People. It's probably much easier to believe this about family that you already love than about strangers (otherwise the same graciousness would be extended toward gay people and women who've had abortions, which I think is extremely unlikely from them). But he's already close and loving with his sister, and as a result Amy is included. Michelle doesn't seem to be very close with any of her family, so it's likely that most of the support they got when they were married so young and began their family would have been from Deanna and JB's parents. Those emotional attachments count for a lot, imho. I don't know if they expect to "save" Amy, since she already seems to be an evangelical/born again Christian type, but they do follow a lot of other rules in their lifestyle that they might hope to impart onto her.

[Four is Enough]

I said it on another forum: JB is the more "human" of the pair, I believe. He genuinely seems to care for all his children, he at least calls them by their names, even has nicknames for many of them. The DQ seems so cold and distant. I believe JB likes having Amy and his mother (I, too, wish he'd stop calling her Grandma!) at his home. He'd probably take more people in if they'd wish to stay. The DQ, however? She wants them all gone.

[It'sFunToRun]

I said it on another forum: JB is the more "human" of the pair, I believe. He genuinely seems to care for all his children, he at least calls them by their names, even has nicknames for many of them. The DQ seems so cold and distant. I believe JB likes having Amy and his mother (I, too, wish he'd stop calling her Grandma!) at his home. He'd probably take more people in if they'd wish to stay. The DQ, however? She wants them all gone.

Where I lived for a while (not too far from the Duggars but I never saw them) that was really normal. I think everyone did it. It's kinda a thing of respect, like when you go up a rank and everyone calls you by your new title.

[Coconut Flan]

Calling Mary Grandma is one of the things I understand. I lost my name in the family the day I became Grandma. It has never bothered me and I doubt it bothers Mary.

[utter solitude]

The reason it bothers me, personally, is that he often sounds almost sarcastic or condescending with it, and it's not a habit he engaged in with his father. He referred to JL as "Dad" more often than "Grandpa", so it rubs me the wrong way he doesn't do the same with his mother. It's as if he defines her whole person in relation to his gaggle of children.

It's a minor hangup, but it irks me.

[sockinshoe]

The reason it bothers me, personally, is that he often sounds almost sarcastic or condescending with it, and it's not a habit he engaged in with his father. He referred to JL as "Dad" more often than "Grandpa", so it rubs me the wrong way he doesn't do the same with his mother. It's as if he defines her whole person in relation to his gaggle of children.

It's a minor hangup, but it irks me.

I think it's because he refers to Michelle as "mom" or "momma", which means he can't use those names for his mother. Because people might get confused. :roll:

It REALLY bothers me because "honour thy mother and thy father" is a commandment. It's also a commandment that the Duggars make a bighuge deal out of. Remember that time they took Mrs. Duggar to a widows' banquet. I sincerely hope they do that kind of thing (or any kind of thoughtful thing) more often than we see on the show. I know my grandmother stayed with us a lot when I was a little kid because both my parents worked and my mother frequently traveled for work. I remember her doing the laundry, helping us get ready in the morning, and cooking, but there obviously weren't 19 of us and it was only for up to 2 weeks at a time. Also, I think if my parents had offered her a room, she would have declined (because she's always been very independent) and if they had asked her to do our laundry FOR THE REST OF HER LIFE, she would have disowned them. I always thought Mrs. Duggar was a lot tougher/less "keep sweet" than she looked (in an admirable way). She raised 2 kids, ran a business, looked after her husband when he was dying (all pretty well singlehandedly) and now she's doing her son's laundry for room and board. It does not feel right to me to see her only reward for a lifetime of hard work being called "precious" or "sweet". If I were Amy/Deanna, I'd want to get her out of there or at least give Jim Bob and J'Chelle a lecture about honouring their mother/mother-in-law.